Christians take a page from the Koran--Raped Girl Made to Appologize to the Church

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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0
This. Claiming all religions are the same is no more than tarring Christianity with Islam's brush. Buddhism is clearly the least violent of the major religions, followed by probably Judaism. Christianity and Hinduism are probably about the same, although if not for the Muslims in India Christianity would clearly be next to last. But by any measure, Islam is clearly the world's most violent major religion. Hopefully it will one day undergo its own peaceful reformation.

If you are posing these distinctions in what you call the "violence" of different religions as being inherent to those religions, as opposed to being a function of external influence, i.e. that of the broader culture in which the religion resides, then how do you account for the ultra-violent behavior of Christians - in the name of Christianity I might add - throughout the bulk of that religion's history?

BTW, "all religions are the same," is not my position.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
If you are posing these distinctions in what you call the "violence" of different religions as being inherent to those religions, as opposed to being a function of external influence, i.e. that of the broader culture in which the religion resides, then how do you account for the ultra-violent behavior of Christians - in the name of Christianity I might add - throughout the bulk of that religion's history?

BTW, "all religions are the same," is not my position.
That was a time when all people were ultra-violent. In addition, the Christians were attempting to take back by the sword what the Muslims had conquered by the sword (and what the Romans had conquered by the sword before them, before the Romans' relatively peaceful conversion to Christianity.) This is common to people everywhere, and not every location abandoned the high levels of violence at the same time. Even in the seventies, Buddhist monks from different temples in Vietnam fought in the streets, and Buddhists are arguably the most peaceful of the major religions. Christianity however largely gave up violence as part and parcel of spreading a religion, or practicing it. Granted, parts of Africa are still an exception, as are scattered individuals of every religion. Islam has not given up violence. If anything, Islam has embraced more violence, both against non-Muslims, against Muslims of different sects, and against women, in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.

As an example, one can find mobs killing in the name of Islam among Arab, Egyptian, Iranian, Afghan, Pakistan/Indian, Indonesian, Maya, and African cultures, often on the basis on outlandish rumor. Outside of Africa, the only correlation one can find among Christians or Hindus or Buddhists is in scattered reprisals and in a very few situations such as in Serbia, where ethnic Albanians were invading and taking over a country. Hardly the same thing.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
One thing about the girl - besides being a minor and therefore not legally as culpable for her own decisions, her (perhaps statutory) rapist is the one who broke vows he had made before G-d. Even if she had been of age, her behavior as the third wheel would not be nearly as bad as that of her married lover, who swore vows before G-d to his wife and then broke those. She behaved badly (assuming consensual sex) at worst; he broke vows at best and committed rape at worst. Anyone with a lick of common sense and decency needs to get the hell out of that church.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
That was a time when all people were ultra-violent. In addition, the Christians were attempting to take back by the sword what the Muslims had conquered by the sword (and what the Romans had conquered by the sword before them, before the Romans' relatively peaceful conversion to Christianity.) This is common to people everywhere, and not every location abandoned the high levels of violence at the same time. Even in the seventies, Buddhist monks from different temples in Vietnam fought in the streets, and Buddhists are arguably the most peaceful of the major religions. Christianity however largely gave up violence as part and parcel of spreading a religion, or practicing it. Granted, parts of Africa are still an exception, as are scattered individuals of every religion. Islam has not given up violence. If anything, Islam has embraced more violence, both against non-Muslims, against Muslims of different sects, and against women, in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.

As an example, one can find mobs killing in the name of Islam among Arab, Egyptian, Iranian, Afghan, Pakistan/Indian, Indonesian, Maya, and African cultures, often on the basis on outlandish rumor. Outside of Africa, the only correlation one can find among Christians or Hindus or Buddhists is in scattered reprisals and in a very few situations such as in Serbia, where ethnic Albanians were invading and taking over a country. Hardly the same thing.

Some nitpicks about the history aside, your first sentence is generally correct. What you did was put historical Christianity into a wider context. Exactly what I'm doing with Islam. Again people are acknowledging the correctness of what I said while purporting to disagree with me. Christianity, like any other religion, is not immutable. In fact, religions are the most pliable belief systems known to man, principally because they involve belief in the supernatural, which itself is a wide open playing field for the imagination to run rampant, and also because religious scriptures are often not entirely clear in their meaning.

You said it yourself - Christians were violent because the world culture in which they operated was violent. Similarly, Muslims, or some of them, are violent because the cultures they operate in are violent. Christianity didn't suddenly, after 1800 or so years, become relatively peaceful because the religion transformed itself from within. It followed what was going on culturally and politically in the lands inhabited by Christians. The middle east and parts of Asia which is where most Muslims happen to reside has not yet experienced the current of humanistic thought that we experienced in the west.

To be clear, I do think religion *in general* is part of what is holding back these Islamic cultures, just as religion (but not solely religion) in general held back the west for almost 2 millennia. The trouble with religion is that it is generally used as a tool of the ruling class to perpetuate the status quo. However, the doctrine of practically any religion can be "interpreted" well enough for that purpose. I very much doubt that the particulars of each religion were more than a minor aspect of it.

- wolf
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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Did you read the posts that you are responding to?

- wolf

Yes. This started when Rainsford he used his "religion is what you make of it" Islam apology. You seemed to defend his post and are now veering the discussion away from his position and saying you're not disagreeing with me about other issues. That's fine. I'm disagreeing with Rainsford (at least I suspect I do he hasn't really explained his original post). My question to Rainsford still stands. If you have offered a defense of Rainsford's position I suspect it's based on your assumptions of what Rainsford was trying to say.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Inquisition, over the span of 500 years, caused about 6,000 deaths. To put that in perspective Islamic militia killed 200,000 in Algeria alone in a 10 year period. This is repeated in every muslim country. You don't even want to talk about Mughals in India where its tens of millions. Moral equivalence is a complete joke and dangerous to infidels world wide. Quite simply people are not worried about getting killed by people with a book of mormon in hand but the Koran.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Yes. This started when Rainsford he used his "religion is what you make of it" Islam apology. You seemed to defend his post and are now veering the discussion away from his position and saying you're not disagreeing with me about other issues. That's fine. I'm disagreeing with Rainsford (at least I suspect I do he hasn't really explained his original post). My question to Rainsford still stands. If you have offered a defense of Rainsford's position I suspect it's based on your assumptions of what Rainsford was trying to say.

I was defending Rainsford's statement all the way through because I agree with him. Religion IS what people make of it. It IS incredibly pliable and any religion can be used to justify good or bad behavior. Where I agree with you is that on the whole, Muslims currently pose a greater threat to world security than do Christians. However, I do not agree that this is because Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity. I think the problem is broader - its cultural - and the actual particulars of Islamic doctrine play a minor part at best.
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,460
3
76
Yet another racist that create false amalgams to demonize
the muslims..

Can you quote us the so called page of the Quran that you re
allegeddly talking about.??....

Well, I'd help you out, but I burned my copy of it.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Inquisition, over the span of 500 years, caused about 6,000 deaths. To put that in perspective Islamic militia killed 200,000 in Algeria alone in a 10 year period. This is repeated in every muslim country. You don't even want to talk about Mughals in India where its tens of millions. Moral equivalence is a complete joke and dangerous to infidels world wide. Quite simply people are not worried about getting killed by people with a book of mormon in hand but the Koran.

It was the white people that killed millions of jews... All of you are Hitler's minions.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
It was the white people that killed millions of jews... All of you are Hitler's minions.

Germans killed everyone 6 million jews and 7 million germans gays/preists/gypises whatever. It was not religious warfare but racial and economics and anyone who opposed police state. Not excusing it just apples to oranges compared to Jihad, which sent those Jews to Europe in the first place.

Today Muslim world loves hitler for what they did and Mein Kampf a bestseller in Muslim countries so I don't know why you're whining.

As far as me no I believe in tolerance of everyone to practice anything as long as it does not infringe on others (church bombings, Ahmadiyya muslim killigs in your country is an example of infringement) and everyone is equal under the law. I am totally intolerant of intolerance.
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,961
4,933
136
Germans killed everyone 6 million jews and 7 million germans gays/preists/gypises whatever. It was not religious warfare but racial and economics and anyone who opposed police state. Not excusing it just apples to oranges compared to Jihad, which sent those Jews to Europe in the first place.

Today Muslim world loves hitler for what they did and Mein Kampf a bestseller in Muslim countries so I don't know why you're whining.

As far as me no I believe in tolerance of everyone to practice anything as long as it does not infringe on others (church bombings, Ahmadiyya muslim killigs in your country is an example of infringement) and everyone is equal under the law. I am totally intolerant of intolerance.

Since 1945 , no governement or any organisation did kill
as much innocent people as did the US government, be it
through wars or staged states coup that often crushed
elected governments ...

Think about it before talking of fascism or whatever extremisms...


When asked by Stahl, "We have heard that half a million children have died [as a result of sanctions]. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it."[51][52] She expressed regret for her response in 2001[53] and wrote in her 2003 autobiography,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Sick women. You wont find me excusing terrorists over here. But I think Pakistani army killed 3 million in Bangladesh in 1970s. Saddam over a million shi'a, kurds, Persians. 200,000 in Algeria by militants. 600,000 Sudan. etc etc etc which you should not excuse.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,961
4,933
136
Sick women. You wont find me excusing terrorists over here. But I think Pakistani army killed 3 million in Bangladesh in 1970s. Saddam over a million shi'a, kurds, Persians. 200,000 in Algeria by militants. 600,000 Sudan. etc etc etc which you should not excuse.

No excuse for killing of innocent people, of course..

As for the Algerian case, wich i m aware of , the funny thing
is that the terrorists leaders were harbored in USA and UK soils
from where they safely managed the algerian terrorists operations.

That said, you are enumerating too much different cases and
doing doubtfull amalgams..

Pakistani repression in the 70s had no religious content, it was
purely political , yet, you brand it as caused by islam..

Same for Iraq, the said events have nothing to do with Islam,
moreover , Saddam Hussein was rather a laic dictator, so you re
willfully creating confusion to fill your anti-muslim agenda...

It s not all to be capable of aligning a few words to make
a sentence, it s still up to you to make it not contradicting
itself..

Indeed, these threads just enforce my opinion that generaly
europeans have more culture and knowledge than US people...
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Some nitpicks about the history aside, your first sentence is generally correct. What you did was put historical Christianity into a wider context. Exactly what I'm doing with Islam. Again people are acknowledging the correctness of what I said while purporting to disagree with me. Christianity, like any other religion, is not immutable. In fact, religions are the most pliable belief systems known to man, principally because they involve belief in the supernatural, which itself is a wide open playing field for the imagination to run rampant, and also because religious scriptures are often not entirely clear in their meaning.

You said it yourself - Christians were violent because the world culture in which they operated was violent. Similarly, Muslims, or some of them, are violent because the cultures they operate in are violent. Christianity didn't suddenly, after 1800 or so years, become relatively peaceful because the religion transformed itself from within. It followed what was going on culturally and politically in the lands inhabited by Christians. The middle east and parts of Asia which is where most Muslims happen to reside has not yet experienced the current of humanistic thought that we experienced in the west.

To be clear, I do think religion *in general* is part of what is holding back these Islamic cultures, just as religion (but not solely religion) in general held back the west for almost 2 millennia. The trouble with religion is that it is generally used as a tool of the ruling class to perpetuate the status quo. However, the doctrine of practically any religion can be "interpreted" well enough for that purpose. I very much doubt that the particulars of each religion were more than a minor aspect of it.

- wolf
Again, we find widespread violence in EVERY culture with a majority Muslim population. Is it not disingenuous to say that every culture with a majority Muslim populace is responsible for the violence among that populace? I agree with you and Rainsford that (at least to some degree) religion is what you make of it, but the particular religion is far from neutral in what is made from it.

Seen any angry mobs of Jains lately?