Christians on Decline, Non-believers Skyrocketing in US

[DAPUNISHER]

Don't you understand? His Christian tradition is logical and makes sense. All the other ones don't. You can't ask him to defend people that are wrong.

That is the rub. You cannot just join the hippie god's cult and be saved. You have to somehow pick the exact right version. And that, after already passing over all the other cults, and choosing the hippie god's.

Of course a few of the hippie god cults are more inclusive; as long as you appoint him your attorney, you will win your trial. Then get to go to serve his dad/him, and live blissfully ever after. Seems legit.

Oh, and there is a strong argument the Josephus passage is a forgery. The site I saw that on also has some high-larious interpretations of new testament passages http://www.truthbeknown.com/christianscript.htm

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Oh, and there is a strong argument the Josephus passage is a forgery.

Are you talking about the margin note that was likely entered by a scribe? Is that your strong argument that the Josephus passage is a forgery?

 

[mindmajick]

It's very apparent you have never stepped inside a church. Your assumptions are so far from the truth. 🙂

Someone else actually read the book of job.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=23194.0

 

[bshole]

The point was obviously lost on you. The discussion was why would God create man only to subject him to the threat of being sent to hell. I was pointing out that Hell / Hades / Lake of Fire was not in the original intention when man was created And is not mentioned in the Bible until much later.

I take it God is not all-knowing. When he created he hell, he had no idea whatsoever that he would be sending people to it. You realize that is blasephemy don't you? I disagree with you.

The God of the Bible knew millions of years before he created hell that he would be sending the vast majority of humanity into it. It was therefor specfically made for man and other creations of God who happen to believe the wrong thing.

You are an atheist to all brands of Christianity except your brand. How do you know your brand is the right one? Faith is not based on fact but on feelings so it is absolutely impossible to prove the right one. You already stated that all the snake handling southern Christians are wrong because your interpretation to the clear words of the Bible are that God does not mean it when he says that those who believe will handle snakes. For fucks sake, it is in there in black and white from the divine lips of God and you DENY them as divine truth. Perhaps the fact that you can do NONE of the required things necessary for true belief has forced you to ignore the Bible and substitue attainable ways for you to get to heaven. Just know that you are the souce of that and not God.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

 

[Retro Rob]

That is the rub. You cannot just join the hippie god's cult and be saved. You have to somehow pick the exact right version. And that, after already passing over all the other cults, and choosing the hippie god's.

Of course a few of the hippie god cults are more inclusive; as long as you appoint him your attorney, you will win your trial. Then get to go to serve his dad/him, and live blissfully ever after. Seems legit.

Oh, and there is a strong argument the Josephus passage is a forgery. The site I saw that on also has some high-larious interpretations of new testament passages http://www.truthbeknown.com/christianscript.htm

Have you noticed, though, that everyone who has begged for a "extrabiblical mention" upon getting it, accuses it of being a forgery, and then looks for evidence to support it? These people comb over it hoping to find the slightest inconsistency with their own expecations, and then discredit the entire source if they find it.

So folks really don't want confirmation. The insistence that we produce confirmation is soley predicated on the fact that there is very little in existence, so the demand is somewhat rhetorical. The tendency, though very strong, is to be RIGHT. No person actually wants to be wrong, and demands that he be proven wrong when he knows the probablity of being proven wrong is high. He demands it when he knows that probablity is low.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Are you talking about the margin note that was likely entered by a scribe? Is that your strong argument that the Josephus passage is a forgery?

I do not expect you to read the following with any objectivity, but what the hell, here it is anyways - http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

There is assuredly a bias involved, but it is a counter to the one Christians love to bounce around in the echo chambers of their own sites.

 

[mindmajick]

I take it God is not all-knowing. When he created he hell, he had no idea whatsoever that he would be sending people to it. You realize that is blasephemy don't you? I disagree with you.

The God of the Bible knew millions of years before he created hell that he would be sending the vast majority of humanity into it. It was therefor specfically made for man and other creations of God who happen to believe the wrong thing.

You are an atheist to all brands of Christianity except your brand. How do you know your brand is the right one? Faith is not based on fact but on feelings so it is absolutely impossible to prove the right one. You already stated that all the snake handling southern Christians are wrong because your interpretation to the clear words of the Bible are that God does not mean it when he says that those who believe will handle snakes. For fucks sake, it is in there in black and white from the divine lips of God and you DENY them as divine truth. Perhaps the fact that you can do NONE of the required things necessary for true belief has forced you to ignore the Bible and substitue attainable ways for you to get to heaven. Just know that you are the souce of that and not God.

I'd like to see them drink the deadly poison. Then we can prove the Bible is real. Also, according to that text all Christians can lay on hands and heal.

That's awesome.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Have you noticed, though, that everyone who has begged for a "extrabiblical mention" upon getting it, accuses it of being a forgery, and then looks for evidence to support it? These people comb over it hoping to find the slightest inconsistency with their own expecations, and then discredit the entire source if they find it.

So folks really don't want confirmation. The insistence that we produce confirmation is soley predicated on the fact that there is very little in existence, so the demand is somewhat rhetorical. The tendency, though very strong, is to be RIGHT. No person actually wants to be wrong, and demands that he be proven wrong when he knows the probablity of being proven wrong is high. He demands it when he knows that probablity is low.

I have noticed, and it is a counter to the confirmation bias all believers choose to embrace. Read the link above, I think you will find that even though you are highly unlikely to agree with it due to your entrenched belief system. That there is a good chance you will agree it is a strong argument, as I stated. Not definitive proof, a strong argument. It asks some hard questions, that are difficult to answer. E.G why so little was written on Jesus by him, and how it does not logically follow given who he was, and what he wrote about.

 

[Retro Rob]

I have noticed, and it is a counter to the confirmation bias all believers choose to embrace. Read the link above, I think you will find that even though you are highly unlikely to agree with it due to your entrenched belief system. That there is a good chance you will agree it is a strong argument, as I stated. Not definitive proof, a strong argument. It asks some hard questions, that are difficult to answer. E.G why so little was written on Jesus by him, and how it does not logically follow given who he was, and what he wrote about.

So little? I guess you don't know that Jesus authored not a single word in the Bible?

That's Christanity 101. You need to start at the basics before you come my way.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

So little? I guess you don't know that Jesus authored not a single word in the Bible?

That's Christanity 101. You need to start at the basics before you come my way.

I think either I worded that poorly, or you need to work on RIF. I am referring to Josephus.

Oh, and thanks for the condescension. Very Christ like of you?

 

[IronWing]

So little? I guess you don't know that Jesus authored not a single word in the Bible?

That's Christanity 101. You need to start at the basics before you come my way.

I think he meddled his hims and his's between JC and Josophats.

 

[child of wonder]

Are you talking about the margin note that was likely entered by a scribe? Is that your strong argument that the Josephus passage is a forgery?

The James, brother of Jesus, section likely had "who was called Christ" added via the margin by Origen then inserted into the text altogether as if Josephus had written it by Eusebius. Later copies simply followed suit.

As for the second passage in regards to Jesus, it is widely accepted to contain Christian leaning edits as Josephus, a Jew, would not refer to Jesus as the Messiah or describe him in such a favorable light. Most likely Josephus was making mention of the existence of Christians in general and that the sect was started by Jesus and that's all.

 

[Retro Rob]

I think either I worded that poorly, or you need to work on RIF. I am referring to Josephus.

Oh, and thanks for the condescension. Very Christ like of you?

You're welcome, and my bad for misreading.

Secondly, Jesus' existence doesn't hinge on Jospehus writing about him no more than your existence hinge on me writing about YOU.

 

[realibrad]

You're welcome, and my bad for misreading.

Secondly, Jesus' existence doesn't hinge on Jospehus writing about him no more than your existence hinge on me writing about YOU.

But if nobody writes about you until well after you death, later people might have a valid reason to question if you existed. Its not proof either way, but you have to admit that its questionable at the very least.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

You're welcome, and my bad for misreading.

Secondly, Jesus' existence doesn't hinge on Jospehus writing about him no more than your existence hinge on me writing about YOU.

Do elucidate. And strong work dismissing the contents of that link instead of reading it.

 

[Retro Rob]

Do elucidate. And strong work dismissing the contents of that link instead of reading it.

I never said I read the link. I commented on what YOU said.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I do not expect you to read the following with any objectivity, but what the hell, here it is anyways - http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

There is assuredly a bias involved, but it is a counter to the one Christians love to bounce around in the echo chambers of their own sites.

Bias? What bias? Never mind what all the historians of this period have concluded with overwhelming unanimity, I'm just damn glad we have an incredibly objective and informed source like www.truthbeknown.com around to get to the real "truth" of the matter.

 

[inachu]

I take it God is not all-knowing. When he created he hell, he had no idea whatsoever that he would be sending people to it. You realize that is blasephemy don't you? I disagree with you.

The God of the Bible knew millions of years before he created hell that he would be sending the vast majority of humanity into it. It was therefor specfically made for man and other creations of God who happen to believe the wrong thing.

You are an atheist to all brands of Christianity except your brand. How do you know your brand is the right one? Faith is not based on fact but on feelings so it is absolutely impossible to prove the right one. You already stated that all the snake handling southern Christians are wrong because your interpretation to the clear words of the Bible are that God does not mean it when he says that those who believe will handle snakes. For fucks sake, it is in there in black and white from the divine lips of God and you DENY them as divine truth. Perhaps the fact that you can do NONE of the required things necessary for true belief has forced you to ignore the Bible and substitue attainable ways for you to get to heaven. Just know that you are the souce of that and not God.

There was no lake of fire and HADES.

THe story of faust is a very very old one and priests when they firs heard of this went crazy with joy to use this as a tool.

The only hell is SHEOL. A place of waiting. That is it. No more. No less.

 

[bshole]

But if nobody writes about you until well after you death, later people might have a valid reason to question if you existed. Its not proof either way, but you have to admit that its questionable at the very least.

Well of all the arguments against Christianity, the non-existence of Jesus is by far the weakest. Why bother even going there? You give Christians the impression that if Jesus did exist, the Bible is correct. The Bible is rife with low-hanging fruit for atheists to pick.

I believe Jesus existed and walked the earth. I am convinced that sources outside of the Bible are sufficient to substantiate that.

Just to be clear, there were about a dozen Jewish "messiahs" that all existed around the time of Jesus. Apparently that was a big thing in that era. Not exactly sure why Jesus was the one who's legacy lasted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

 

[realibrad]

Well of all the arguments against Christianity, the non-existence of Jesus is by far the weakest. Why bother even going there? You give Christians the impression that if Jesus did exist, the Bible is correct. The Bible is rife with low-hanging fruit for atheists to pick.

I believe Jesus existed and walked the earth. I am convinced that sources outside of the Bible are sufficient to substantiate that.

Just to be clear, there were about a dozen Jewish "messiahs" that all existed around the time of Jesus. Apparently that was a big thing in that era. Not exactly sure why Jesus was the one who's legacy lasted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants

I did not say there was not a Jesus. I said its fair to say its questionable, as it is.

I agree that there was likely a Jesus, but with all things from back then, its very cloudy. What is most important is the foundation of the religion, which is bunk.

 

[Retro Rob]

But if nobody writes about you until well after you death, later people might have a valid reason to question if you existed. Its not proof either way, but you have to admit that its questionable at the very least.

Of course they can question it. But there is really no need to hinge the truthfulness of a matter on whether or not someone else mentioned it....as shown, people can forge things, or omit it.

This isn't really about whether or not the Romans were good record keepers...its about if Jesus was even important to anyone of his day, other than the people who followed him.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I never said I read the link. I commented on what YOU said.

Are you upset? Be honest, hippie god knows when you are lying. You keep typing replies that are not based on what I wrote. My comment clearly stated I knew you had not read the link. I surmised as much because unless you speed read there was insufficient time to do so.

Because you keep replying like you have reading Asperger's, I will be more specific. My post implied that you deflected instead of reading the link. You had replied before attempting to show me why the people that wrote it, were simply engaging in confirmation bias. When I acknowledged that, I then told you why I still found the argument compelling. Instead of reading it, you assured me your hippie god was real, even if the whole Josephus thing turned out to be the forgery asserted. That is deflecting.

2nd edit: Because of the Asperger's thing, yes some of my reasoning is based on inference and not what was explicitly stated by any party.

 

[Ban Bot]

I have read it and the whole Bible. I am not convinced you have since Hell was supposedly created for Satan and his Angels and not Adam and Eve. That said, Hell was a Pagan idea that didn't get Biblical support until the New Testament.

It probably isn't helpful to use the word hell as it has been used to translate or refer to so many different words (sheol, abaddon, ge hinnom, hades, gehenna, tartarus, abyssos, the lake of fire). These are not identical concepts.

RE: Satan and hell.

Satan and his angels were bound (Revelation 20) and tossed into the pit (abyssos) which is likened to a prison. This may/may not be the same as Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4). After the 1000 year reign of Messiah, at that time, Satan, his angels, death, hades, and those who are judged and not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20).

Using hell for all these words is just confusing: Satan and his angels were bound (Revelation 20) and tossed into hell which is likened to a prison. This may/may not be the same as hell (2 Peter 2:4). After the 1000 year reign of Messiah, at that time, Satan, his angels, death, hell, and those who are judged and not found in the book of life are thrown into the hell (Revelation 20).

Sloppy use of words has hellish results.

RE: Adam and Eve and hell. In this case the lake of fire is for apostate heavenly hosts and for humans not in the book of life. Whether that was the plan for all lost humanity from the beginning or only since Revelation is kind of a moot point (God, since the publication of that book, has continued to allow humans to be born who would be destined to the lake of fire so the same general charge stands: God makes humans destined for the lake of fire.)

RE: "Hell was a Pagan idea that didn't get Biblical support until the New Testament". Not really. Exile is one of the first Biblical themes. The grave, a book of life, life after death, and judgment are all themes that can be found in the Hebrew Bible, most very early. Even if the exodus is denied there is clearly connections between Israel and Egypt (everything from loanwords to an intimate knowledge of the flood inundation cycle and its relation to Egypt's gods; see also the Armana Letters showing significant diplomacy between Canaan and Egypt in the 14th c. BCE and scarabs found in Canaan) which begs the question: Why would Israel have no concept of an afterlife considering Egypt's preoccupation with such? It seems clear to me there is a subtext of eternal life in the Hebrew Bible, to wit one of the first stories is about the Tree of Life. It is sloppy scholarship to insinuate borrowing as trees of life, underworlds, paradise, etc. are all pervasive concepts throughout the ancient Near East but developed differently in various religions. Probably the best example, as the Hebrew Bible well documents such, is the Temple (and tabernacle before which). It is a common tripartite long room design as so common in the Levant but how it functions (especially the image of God), food/sacrifices, etc. communicates and functions very differently. Form and function are not the same thing, a rule that extends to a lot of shared imagery and conceptual categories.

 

[bshole]

I'd like to see them drink the deadly poison. Then we can prove the Bible is real. Also, according to that text all Christians can lay on hands and heal.

That's awesome.

Their argument is "it is impossible for us to do that so it does not apply to us". With that single thought, they flush down the toilet the holy words of God himself. Their blatant disregard and atheism towards revealed truth is a strong motivation for others to not accept Christianity. The hard verses which require something of them are inapplicable, the easy verses which allow them to comdemn others (such as homosexuals) must be followed rigidly. It is a smorgasbord religion, pick and choose what you like and completely ignore that which you don't.

 

[realibrad]

This should go well here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIxSeiqyGXQ