Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

[Tom]

Your still not thinking logically about it.

Religion doesn't stop people from acting badly, in fact some of the tenets of the major religions prescribe you to act badly (stoning of adulterers, etc).

Religion is something thats added on, its another layer of bigotry on top of that given by politics or nationalism.

Theres always going to be arguments about who gets to control the new oil deposits or like. But religion adds on mad things like "stone the unbeliever" and crap like that.

End of the day, religion is unnecessary. It adds nothing positive. Its just tribalism thats been hung on to for too long.

Religion isn't an add-on. I believe if you distill it down, religion, or belief, is a way of dealing with things we can't comprehend, or that we do comprehend, but cannot control.

And it's as old as human beings, and probably older than that.

I would go so far as to say that people cannot exist without religion or belief. There's certainly no historical evidence that any socirty or culture has ever been founded without it, or lasted. Cultures may switch what belief system they follow, but they don't abandon it.

It's just part of human nature, like survival, wandering or nesting, mating. Like those things it's sometimes a positive, sometimes a negative.

 

[HAL9000]

Religion isn't an add-on. I believe if you distill it down, religion, or belief, is a way of dealing with things we can't comprehend, or that we do comprehend, but cannot control.

And it's as old as human beings, and probably older than that.

I would go so far as to say that people cannot exist without religion or belief. There's certainly no historical evidence that any socirty or culture has ever been founded without it, or lasted. Cultures may switch what beleif system they follow, but they don't abandon it.

It's just part of human nature, like survival, wandering or nesting, mating.

Religion is a tool used by mankind to make reasons for things that have no reason.

 

[WelshBloke]

I'm about as atheist as they come (some on this forum might even go so far as to describe me as fanatical atheist), but I do not agree with the above statement.


Fanaticism is more than simply that. Fanaticism is a more virulent type of self-delusion, wherein a person will not tolerate conflicting ideals, and holds that the ends always justifiy the means. This is not strictly true of religious persons, even while often it is.

No it isn't fanaticism is exactly what I said, now it can become militant or oppressive. It depends upon what your beliefs tell you. But the point of religion is faith, so you don't question those beliefs (or you shouldn't).

 

[WelshBloke]

Religion isn't an add-on. I believe if you distill it down, religion, or belief, is a way of dealing with things we can't comprehend, or that we do comprehend, but cannot control.

And it's as old as human beings, and probably older than that.

I would go so far as to say that people cannot exist without religion or belief. There's certainly no historical evidence that any socirty or culture has ever been founded without it, or lasted. Cultures may switch what belief system they follow, but they don't abandon it.

It's just part of human nature, like survival, wandering or nesting, mating.

So your saying, what science cant explain is left for religion?

Or stuff that's too scary, that's left for religion?

How about we act like grown ups, admit that we don't know or cant control everything, and try and understand the universe in a logical way?

 

[shira]

Yea right instead lets just listen to atheists who are pedos, rapists, murders, thieves, liars, and etc. I mean hey if atheists just kept their lousy lives to themselves I would be ok. But the sickos spread their nonsense anyway.

Naturally you have the peer-reviewed data to back up this nonsensical claim. Or do your anti-atheist delusions come from the same cesspool as your religious faith?

 

[Tom]

So your saying, what science cant explain is left for religion?

Or stuff that's too scary, that's left for religion?

How about we act like grown ups, admit that we don't know or cant control everything, and try and understand the universe in a logical way?

Trying to understand the universe is part of religion/belief, it isn't seperate. Science is a method. A very powerful method which leads some of us to believe in it. That's what a religion is.

You and I can see the truth in something like mathmatics. And the way it can explain aspects of the universe. But because you think of religion as weak, you don't want to associate a belief in math as the same thing. But it is the same thing. Belief doesn't have to be false, believing in something like math, because we think it's true, is still a belief.

And many of the general precepts of religion are just as true, if we believe in them. I am my brother's keeper, is true, if we do it.

There are things that are false in religion, but there are in science too. Maybe science evolves faster than religion, but they both do evolve.

 

[HAL9000]

Trying to understand the universe is part of religion/belief, it isn't seperate. Science is a method. A very powerful method which leads some of us to believe in it. That's what a religion is.

You and I can see the truth in something like mathmatics. And the way it can explain aspects of the universe. But because you think of religion as weak, you don't want to associate a belief in math as the same thing. But it is the same thing. Belief doesn't have to be false, believing in something like math, because we think it's true, is still a belief.

And many of the general precepts of religion are just as true, if we believe in them. I am my brother's keeper, is true, if we do it.

There are things that are false in religion, but there are in science too. Maybe science evolves faster than religion, but they both do evolve.

There is a monolithic difference between "believing" in maths, routed in logic. and belief in religion, routed in...? 😕 lack of reason / logic.

 

[WelshBloke]

Trying to understand the universe is part of religion/belief, it isn't seperate. Science is a method. A very powerful method which leads some of us to believe in it. That's what a religion is.

You and I can see the truth in something like mathmatics. And the way it can explain aspects of the universe. But because you think of religion as weak, you don't want to associate a belief in math as the same thing. But it is the same thing. Belief doesn't have to be false, believing in something like math, because we think it's true, is still a belief.

And many of the general precepts of religion are just as true, if we believe in them. I am my brother's keeper, is true, if we do it.

There are things that are false in religion, but there are in science too. Maybe science evolves faster than religion, but they both do evolve.

You equate maths with religion?

 

[Tom]

There is a monolithic difference between "believing" in maths, routed in logic. and belief in religion, routed in...? 😕 lack of reason / logic.

I am my brother's keeper..

You can't see the logic in that ?

As far as science or math, I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, I can see the logic in it, I can see the method. I believe in them both. But just because it's logical doesn't change the fact that believing in it is a religion.

The validity, or lack of it, does not define what is a religion. Belief is what defines religion.

 

[Matt1970]

Religion in moderation is fine. As soon as you think your "religion" is telling you to go murder someone or even groups of people, then there's the problem. I keep my religious views to myself. If everyone else did to we would be a better world.

 

[HAL9000]

I am my brother's keeper..

You can't see the logic in that ?

As far as science or math, I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, I can see the logic in it, I can see the method. I believe in them both. But just because it's logical doesn't change the fact that believing in it is a religion.

The validity, or lack of it, does not define what is a religion. Belief is what defines religion.

the difference, as I said is that there is logic to maths, 1+1 logically = 2. The bible + anything does not logically equal a belief in christianity or god.

The validity of religion is absolutely the issue, the validity of something determines whether or not a belief in it is prudent or whether it is belief or fact.

I do not believe that 1+1 = 2. It is fact. Logical, incontrafutable fact.

 

[WelshBloke]

I am my brother's keeper..

You can't see the logic in that ?

As far as science or math, I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, I can see the logic in it, I can see the method. I believe in them both. But just because it's logical doesn't change the fact that believing in it is a religion.

The validity, or lack of it, does not define what is a religion. Belief is what defines religion.

Um, yes it does.

Or maybe I misunderstood that whole faith bit about religion.

 

[Tom]

You equate maths with religion?

Math is a method or process.

Believing math can explain the universe, can help build something or blow it up, can tell you how to balance your checkbook, that's a religion.

 

[HAL9000]

Math is a method or process.

Believing math can explain the universe, can help build something or blow it up, can tell you how to balance your checkbook, that's a religion.

No. Maths can, and does help you do a calculation, help you building something and help you balance a cheque book, this isn't a belief, this isn't faith this is a statement of face. A + B does necessarily = C.

Religion is predicated on faith. Not logic.

 

[WelshBloke]

Math is a method or process.

Believing math can explain the universe, can help build something or blow it up, can tell you how to balance your checkbook, that's a religion.

No its not.

I dont need to tell you this its something you already know.

 

[Tom]

No. Maths can, and does help you do a calculation, help you building something and help you balance a cheque book, this isn't a belief, this isn't faith this is a statement of face. A + B does necessarily = C.

Religion is predicated on faith. Not logic.

LOL. You believe in it so strongly you can't see it for what it is. That's true of lots of religions.

Like I've said multiple times, something can be true, and if you believe in it, that's a religion.

It isn't something else because you believe it's true. It isn't something else because it's obvious. Those things you see in math, other people see in other things.

In both cases, believing in those things makes it a religion.

 

[sandorski]

1+1=2
?+?=God?

 

[HAL9000]

LOL. You believe in it so strongly you can't see it for what it is. That's true of lots of religions.

Like I've said multiple times, something can be true, and if you believe in it, that's a religion.

It isn't something else because you believe it's true. It isn't something else because it's obvious. Those things you see in math, other people see in other things.

In both cases, believing in those things makes it a religion.

I do not believe that 1+1=2 I know it as fact, it is a logical fact, resulting from a logical incontrovertible proof. Religion is a system of belief, a system of conclusions based of faith / lack of reasons. Maths is a system of conclusions based on pure logic and fact. Fact != belief.

 

[sandorski]

LOL. You believe in it so strongly you can't see it for what it is. That's true of lots of religions.

Like I've said multiple times, something can be true, and if you believe in it, that's a religion.

It isn't something else because you believe it's true. It isn't something else because it's obvious. Those things you see in math, other people see in other things.

In both cases, believing in those things makes it a religion.

/facepalm

 

[WelshBloke]

LOL. You believe in it so strongly you can't see it for what it is. That's true of lots of religions.

Like I've said multiple times, something can be true, and if you believe in it, that's a religion.

It isn't something else because you believe it's true. It isn't something else because it's obvious. Those things you see in math, other people see in other things.

In both cases, believing in those things makes it a religion.

Theres no faith in maths.

You can de-construct it or take it back to basics and up again.

Religion relies on the suspension of logic and just accepting what your told as being the truth.

 

[Tom]

I do not believe that 1+1=2 I know it as fact, it is a logical fact, resulting from a logical incontrovertible proof. Religion is a system of belief, a system of conclusions based of faith / lack of reasons. Maths is a system of conclusions based on pure logic and fact. Fact != belief.

What you just said is..

you believe in facts.

You aren't getting my point. You can believe in something that's true, like 1+1=2, and if you do, that's a religion. Point being, you can use that belief to accomplish things, to assure yourself you're on the right path, or find yourself wanting, you can make decisions based on the principles you believe in; all of that makes it a religion.

Until you can see that you're a human being, like everybody else, it's impossible to rationally compare religions.

The Taliban is just as sure their religion is a fact as you are.

 

[sandorski]

What you just said is..

you believe in facts.

You aren't getting my point. You can believe in something that's true, like 1+1=2, and if you do, that's a religion. Point being, you can use that belief to accomplish things, to assure yourself you're on the right path, or find yourself wanting, you can make decisions based on the principles you believe in; all of that makes it a religion.

Until you can see that you're a human being, like everybody else, it's impossible to rationally compare religions.

The Taliban is just as sure their religion is a fact as you are.

No, it is not. If it was, you'd believe in that Religion too, thereby breaking a few parts of the Religion you do Believe in.

 

[HAL9000]

What you just said is..

you believe in facts.

You aren't getting my point. You can believe in something that's true, like 1+1=2, and if you do, that's a religion. Point being, you can use that belief to accomplish things, to assure yourself you're on the right path, or find yourself wanting, you can make decisions based on the principles you believe in; all of that makes it a religion.

Until you can see that you're a human being, like everybody else, it's impossible to rationally compare religions.

The Taliban is just as sure their religion is a fact as you are.

I don't believe in facts, I don't have some abstract belief, I know facts, they are absolute. Not relative.

 

[Tom]

Theres no faith in maths.

You can de-construct it or take it back to basics and up again.

Religion relies on the suspension of logic and just accepting what your told as being the truth.

No it doesn't require anything of the sort. Your religion is whatever you believe in. It can be completely based on logic, as you understand logic.

 

[HAL9000]

No it doesn't require anything of the sort. Your religion is whatever you believe in. It can be completely based on logic, as you understand logic.

There is a difference between a system of beliefs and the collection of facts you know. Knowledge != Belief.