Christian Thread - What do you believe about predestination? (Uhm,, before you jump in, notice the word "Christian")

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hi LB
Wondered if you would pay us a visit. Oops, I see I switched a non deterministic for a deterministic. Oh well you got the point. This is why proof readers earn their keep.

 

[Moonbeam]

Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

 

[Moonbeam]

Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la

One banana, two banana
Three banana, four
Four bananas make a bunch
And so do many more
Over hill and highway
The banana buggies go
Comin' on to bring you
The Banana Splits Show

Makin' up a mess of fun
Makin' up a mess of fun
Lots of fun for everyone

Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la

Four banana, three banana
Two banana, one
All bananas playing in the bright warm sun
Flippin' like a pancake, poppin' like a cork
Fleagle, Bingo, Drooper an' Snork

Makin' up a mess of fun
Makin' up a mess of fun
Lots of fun for everyone

Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la

Two banana, four banana
One banana, three
Swingin' like a bunch of monkeys
Hangin' from a tree
Hey there everybody
Won't you come along and see
How much like banana splits
Everyone can be

Makin' up a mess of fun
Makin' up a mess of fun
Lots of fun for everyone

Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la
Tra-la-la, la-la-la-la

 

[her209]

If predestiny exists, then religion is pointless. Yet, predistiny does exist because God's will exists according to religion.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Yea, we can hijack the thread!

There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
And they're quite convinced the're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.

But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the Forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the Maples scream "Oppression!"
And the Oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."

Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

 

[Moonbeam]

her209, your conundrum suggests it's time for a banana, or a strawberry.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
her209, your conundrum suggests it's time for a banana, or a strawberry.

May I request a strawberry banana daiquiri?

 

[PsychoAndy]

didn't this die out with the calvinists and the catholic church's sale of indulgences back in the 1600s?

 

[linuxboy]

May I request a strawberry banana daiquiri?

Only if you accept my decorative and fragrant mint leaf on top.


Cheers !

 

[mithrandir2001]

Originally posted by: linuxboy
May I request a strawberry banana daiquiri?

Only if you accept my decorative and fragrant mint leaf on top.


Cheers !

Mint leaf tip dipped in 24K gold? Deal.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: linuxboy
May I request a strawberry banana daiquiri? Only if you accept my decorative and fragrant mint leaf on top. Cheers !

Gratefully accepted

 

[Moonbeam]

I may start a business. It's predeterministically obvious to me. A strawberry banana daiquiri with a fragrant mint on top smells like a money maker to me.

 

[FrozenYak]

Originally posted by: bthorny
hehe christian thread only, haters.

No where in the title does it say 'christians only', it just says to notice the word for people like you who will come in here and make irrelevant posts and flamings. Discussing this topic in one religion is hard enough, if you just said 'discussing predestination' you run into even more views from even more religions.

 

[FrozenYak]

Originally posted by: luvly
"Where you and I disagree is this. Knowing an making happen are not the same. Example: Let's say you can tell in advance what the next days lottery numbers are. Forget about how much you would earn, my point is that just knowing would not be the same as rolling and selecting them. Indeterminate systems might be observed through time, but it does not mean you have to interact with them. The act of observating an object in a spatial dimention does not make it longer or shorter. It just is. Now if you could look at an object in its temporal dimention, you might just be able to achieve the same."

It would seem to me that you're saying that God is the supreme scientist and operates like man does. However, God is the genius, a super computer and can work out all possible formulas, occurence of events. Okay, help me out here: Let's say that this whole omniscient thing is a matter of definition. Let's stipulate that all-knowing does not mean that the cause of events could not be altered along the way, as it seems that's what your argument would lead us to. He could pick any of many possible outcomes. I still find that hard to accept, but let's just assume it for the purpose of argument. Now, tell me how the equations adds up if it's stipulated that God is all-powerful too. Why then do good people suffer? Why isn't suffering just limited to the evil people? Would this be a statement that God either isn't omnipotent or He simply has no regards for the suffering of human beings, even his children? :/

This is basically an attempt to find an answer by proof by contradiction. Help me here.

Who in their right mind would not follow God if they saw it was that easy? If you offer people a choice between a [mansion/millions in cash/etc] and living in the car for the rest of their lives which one do you think they would choose? God can affect our lives just as satan can, but God gave us the free will to choose Him. If following God tied in with just taking the easy ride in life your not really choosing God so much as you are just choosing the easy ride. Just my opinion

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Well, it's either that God, being all-knowing, knew that you would choose him, or he made vessels for destruction (created people knowing that they would not choose him and that they would live in separation from God otherwise known as hell). I don't believe that you can lose your salvation, either.

nik

 

[FrozenYak]

You dont believe you can lose your salvation? so the way your putting it, i could get saved, then go out and become the next adolf hitler and still end up in heaven. My pastor gave his opinion on this last week - if you get saved, then fall away from God, that questions whether you were ever truly saved in the begining

 

[linuxboy]

You dont believe you can lose your salvation? so the way your putting it, i could get saved, then go out and become the next adolf hitler and still end up in heaven. My pastor gave his opinion on this last week - if you get saved, then fall away from God, that questions whether you were ever truly saved in the begining

Ezekiel 3:20 If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


The state of salvation of humankind is not some logically stated fact of "I am saved", "I am not saved".

The offer is made, through the blood of Christ to yoke with Him. If that offer is taken, if the glory is seen, the gift accepted, then there is the state of Grace, of a redeeming sort of Love that is at our innermost. It is testified by the Spirit, and confirmed by a presence in Him (1 John 4:15). That is the offer made, a continual one, to be chosen or rejected. When we choose it, when we are in that, then we are saved, then we have eternal life, then we have the Kingdom of God (which is within us, so long as we are like children). However, outside of that state, we are still bound by the same Law as anyone else, by the commandments of this world, by the tyrannical chains of society, by the oppression of words and logic, by the restrictions we impose on ourselves when we begin to doubt and not have faith.

Salvation for the purpose of a heaven or logical certainty (because the Bible told me so) fails if that is the extent and basis of our religiosity, then that is when we cricify Christ again, when we remain as infants, having tasted the full food of maturity. Then we cry out and are not heard, then we lament over the cruelty of people, then we shrug in a lack of knowing.

We are called to be gods and to overcome, according to a Christian conception of the world. Salvation is an ongoing process, wherein our doings and undoings move closer and closer to Him. The farther away we are, the more fallen we are, and the closer we are, the less fallen. It is His Will that all should be saved, but not all are, though who is man to judge anything?

We can make a position here on the ideas of predestination, and if you want, Zero In, I can make very convincing arguments for the sides presented here and let each one choose for him/her self. Then what? Why do we ask questions? Do you want to know the truth?

Here is the truth:

I love you. Have a daiquiry. On the house, we've started a business and it's a promo.


Cheers !

 

[Mears]

Omniscience and freewill do not have to be mutual exclusive.

Did anyone read my earlier post?

Here is a summation:

God is a higher dimensional being?ie greater than 4 dimensional. Therefore, time, our 4th dimension is laid out before him and he sees it all at once. To God, we have already done what we are going to do tomorrow. So sure you could say he knows what I?m going to do tomorrow, so he knows in advance what I?m going to do. However, this is not entirely true. To God, our tomorrow has already happened. We?ve already made tomorrow?s decisions. Look closely, the key phrase is ?We?ve already made?. You see God is not bound by our time dimension. He doesn?t age with it. We don?t exist tomorrow but God does.

I know this is entirely confusing and I didn?t use structured sentences which even further complicates my explanation. The main thing is this: Our entire life is played out before God at once. We make all the decisions in our life and these decisions are made in sequence at certain time intervals. But you see, God sees our today at the same time he sees our tomorrow so he doesn't so we are not bound by predestination.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: FrozenYak
You dont believe you can lose your salvation? so the way your putting it, i could get saved, then go out and become the next adolf hitler and still end up in heaven. My pastor gave his opinion on this last week - if you get saved, then fall away from God, that questions whether you were ever truly saved in the begining

No, that proves that other people judge you and create their own opinions. If one gets truely saved and falls away from God, it's not your job to act like you know better than God by saying that the man was never saved in the first place.

At the Great White Throne Judgement, Christ will turn people away, saying "I never knew you" -even in the original text, the word is past-tense. It's not "away from me, I do not know you," it's "away from me, I never knew you."

nik

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Mears
Omniscience and freewill do not have to be mutual exclusive.

Did anyone read my earlier post?

Here is a summation:

God is a higher dimensional being?ie greater than 4 dimensional. Therefore, time, our 4th dimension is laid out before him and he sees it all at once. To God, we have already done what we are going to do tomorrow. So sure you could say he knows what I?m going to do tomorrow, so he knows in advance what I?m going to do. However, this is not entirely true. To God, our tomorrow has already happened. We?ve already made tomorrow?s decisions. Look closely, the key phrase is ?We?ve already made?. You see God is not bound by our time dimension. He doesn?t age with it. We don?t exist tomorrow but God does.

I know this is entirely confusing and I didn?t use structured sentences which even further complicates my explanation. The main thing is this: Our entire life is played out before God at once. We make all the decisions in our life and these decisions are made in sequence at certain time intervals. But you see, God sees our today at the same time he sees our tomorrow so he doesn't so we are not bound by predestination.

The whole thing about predistination is that before he created us, he actually made the decision to save some of us and not to save others of us. Like a list that he took the time (haha) to actually separate out with who would be saved and who wouldn't. I know that he c an see the end before the beginning, blah blah blah. But the idea is that he controls absolutely who gets saved and who doesn't - i.e. saving us, then letting us live our lives having already made the choice for us.

nik

 

[Zero In]

Originally posted by: Mears
Omniscience and freewill do not have to be mutual exclusive. Did anyone read my earlier post? Here is a summation: God is a higher dimensional being?ie greater than 4 dimensional. Therefore, time, our 4th dimension is laid out before him and he sees it all at once. To God, we have already done what we are going to do tomorrow. So sure you could say he knows what I?m going to do tomorrow, so he knows in advance what I?m going to do. However, this is not entirely true. To God, our tomorrow has already happened. We?ve already made tomorrow?s decisions. Look closely, the key phrase is ?We?ve already made?. You see God is not bound by our time dimension. He doesn?t age with it. We don?t exist tomorrow but God does. I know this is entirely confusing and I didn?t use structured sentences which even further complicates my explanation. The main thing is this: Our entire life is played out before God at once. We make all the decisions in our life and these decisions are made in sequence at certain time intervals. But you see, God sees our today at the same time he sees our tomorrow so he doesn't so we are not bound by predestination.

You are, I think, defining fatalism. As far as I know, no Christian subscribes to this faith. However, it is applicable to other religions, Islam, for instance.

 

[Zero In]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Zero In

Originally posted by: datalink7 Wouldn't believing in the Christian God necessitate believing in determinism? The reason for this is that created free will is a paradox. If a programmer tries to give a machine AI, even far in the future when technology is far more advanced than now, even if he apparently succeeds would not the AI still be programmed? And therefore it wouldn't be true AI, but instead programmed and predetermined to some extent. Thus, if God created people, he couldn't have "given" us free will. Because that would be a paradox. Free will can only exist independent of outside influences, which it would not be if it was given to us. Therefore, if you believe in free will you can't believe in the Christian God. What do you think?

Uhm....... not really. Ever heard of soft determinism / compatibilism? And uhm..... I think you're misusing the word "paradox" here. What I think you mean is "contradiction".

Could you give me a synopsis of soft determinism/compatibilism? And I think I use the term paradox correctly. It isn't just a contradiction. It literally, at least to my thinking, cannot exist (programmed or given free will). If it were to exist, that would be a paradox, no?

Let me try this. not sure though.
Determinism = everything that happens was caused by something.
Soft-determinism = everything that happens was caused by something, however, at any one point of time, the individual has a choice of whether or not to act upon what makes him want to do something, e.g. psychological make-up, belief system, upbringing, likes, dislikes, morality, etc. etc.

 

[JellyBaby]

Predetermination is rather obsolete don't you think? In the 19th(?) century during the Enlightenment we switched from the "accept your lot in life" belief to "educate and work hard to improve yourself and your situation".

 

[petrek]

Originally posted by: Zero In

Originally posted by: Mears
Omniscience and freewill do not have to be mutual exclusive. Did anyone read my earlier post? Here is a summation: God is a higher dimensional being?ie greater than 4 dimensional. Therefore, time, our 4th dimension is laid out before him and he sees it all at once. To God, we have already done what we are going to do tomorrow. So sure you could say he knows what I?m going to do tomorrow, so he knows in advance what I?m going to do. However, this is not entirely true. To God, our tomorrow has already happened. We?ve already made tomorrow?s decisions. Look closely, the key phrase is ?We?ve already made?. You see God is not bound by our time dimension. He doesn?t age with it. We don?t exist tomorrow but God does. I know this is entirely confusing and I didn?t use structured sentences which even further complicates my explanation. The main thing is this: Our entire life is played out before God at once. We make all the decisions in our life and these decisions are made in sequence at certain time intervals. But you see, God sees our today at the same time he sees our tomorrow so he doesn't so we are not bound by predestination.

You are, I think, defining fatalism. As far as I know, no Christian subscribes to this faith. However, it is applicable to other religions, Islam, for instance.

It would appear to me that I agree with what Mears said, and that in fact I have stated the same thing before, I am also a Bible believing Christian. Please explain what is wrong with what Mears said from a Biblical stance, your definition of fatalism would also come in handy.

D

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Predetermination is rather obsolete don't you think? In the 19th(?) century during the Enlightenment we switched from the "accept your lot in life" belief to "educate and work hard to improve yourself and your situation".

Or maybe your lot in life was that you would have to work for it, but be destined to educate yourself and improve your situation.

See the loop?

nik