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Christian Science..... (no, not "that" christian science)

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Cessna172

Member
Jan 8, 2001
183
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0


<< Yeah, like I said, I find both theories to be risible.

Scientist: "Giraffes evolved increasingly longer necks because they had to stretch them to eat leaves off the trees."
Christian: "No they didn't, evidence shows otherwise. Just because I stretch my neck my whole life doesn't mean my kid's going to have a longer neck."
Scientist: "Oh...well...it takes millions of years for microevolution to develop sufficient changes to produce macroevolutionary changes."
Christian: "Then where are the transitional forms? Where are the millions of intermediaries?"
Scientist: "Oh, well... hm... perhaps punctuated equillibrium can explain the sudden gaps we see between species in the fossil record."
Christian:
rolleye.gif
>>



Xirtam: This is NOT how evolution works. Maybe there was some crackpot who tried to explain it that way, but that's not how natural selection works at all.

An animal becoming better suited to its environment (such as a giraffe getting longer and being able to eat leaves from more trees) has NOTHING to do with what the animal WANTS to do. No intelligent scientist will tell you that an animal gets taller by "stretching" itself. It happens completely randomly. Everytime a new organism comes into existence, there are always some slight genetic variations from its parents--and these are just completely random variations and genetic "defects". Some giraffes may be born just slightly taller than others. These giraffes, just by random chance, now have a very slight advantage over shorter giraffes. These particular giraffes are able to get leaves from trees just slightly better than their shorter peers. Therefore, these slightly taller giraffes will have a slightly better chance of surviving long enough to pass on their taller genes to their offspring when they mate. Over time, these small, small, changes compound on each other. The taller giraffes will have, on average, taller kids. And over long periods of time, the slightly taller giraffes will prevail. And as the generations go on, everytime a baby giraffe is born that is just slightly taller (by random genetic variations), if that makes it more suited to its environment, it will be more likely to pass that "better" trait onto future generations.

You can use this same explanation to understand why people who live in hotter, sunnier environments (like Africa and South America) have darker skin. Or even why we have developed eyes. And it's not always about survival, either. Why do you think humans have gotten taller and taller over the years? Natural selection. Taller people are considered more "attractive" in general. Thus, they're more likely to get laid and have taller kids. And those kids will have kids, etc.

So, you may look at an animal and say to yourself, "Wow, it's so perfect! Look at it, it's perfectly designed for its environment. The giraffe would of course need a long neck to reach those trees! God is a genious for designing them that way!" But the "design" is nothing but the result of lots and lots of random variations that resulted in a better "design" through completely natural means. Most things that seem to be of a perfect "design" really only seem that way because if they didn't happen to evolve that way, you wouldn't be seeing them now. They would have died off or changed so much that they would appear to be a different creature.

Just because you haven't found certain "missing link" fossils doesn't mean the theory is wrong.

And this is not just a "theory". It works. You can see it happen under a microscope. Want to know why it's so damn hard to cure someone with the AIDS virus? Natural selection and evolution. Scientists develop drugs to kill certain strains of the AIDS virus all the time. BUT, the problem is that because it's a virus, it muliplies itself much, much, much faster than an animal such as a human would or could. So the "variations" that happen when the virus reproduces itself happens at an accelerated pace. In an AIDS patient's body, several slight variations of the virus develop as it reproduces itself. When a drug is found to fight the virus, it will kill off most of the virus. BUT, some of the virus that has changed through random variations will remain. It, just by chance, doesn't respond to the vaccine. And now, those ones that don't respond will now start multiplying since they're impervious to the vaccine. And, viola, you end up with a new strain of the virus that's more resilient.

Even if you have problems with certain aspects of natural selection and specific theories associated with it, you should NOT default back to the position that "God created everything." There are FAR, FAR, FAR more holes in the creationist theory than there are in any scientific theory about how the universe was created. Not being able to find some fossils is nothing compared to the huge, gaping holes and contradictions that exist in most religious accounts of the world.

Seeing "order" and "design" does not mean that there really is any. Just because you think something is "pretty" or seems to make sense, does not mean that some invisible man in the sky "designed" it. So your "I see design in the universe, therefore God must have done it" idea is inherently flawed.
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
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<< be·lieve Pronunciation Key (b-lv)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
v. tr.
To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?
To credit with veracity: I believe you.
To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly.

v. intr.
To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.
>>


Sorry, dude, you really do believe in evolution.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
4,693
0
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<< Xirtam: This is NOT how evolution works. Maybe there was some crackpot who tried to explain it that way, but that's not how natural selection works at all. >>



The point was facetious. I was showing how Maniak was looking at select groups of Creationists and applying their crazy theories across the board. Of course very few people accept Lamarckism today. I never said otherwise. Read the thread, man. So is Stephen J. Gould a moron like you're suggesting?

Elledan, what moral responsibility do I have if God does not exist? Perhaps I was wrong in stating that I have no moral responsibility if God didn't exist. I wasn't trying to "lie." But if I call all your references to my lies lies, pretty soon we'll have lies about lies about lies, and then lies about lies about lies about lies about lies... and we'll never get anywhere. So can you tell me what possible ethical stance I can take if I believe that there is no God and that everything is the result of random chance?

jliechty: Who the heck are you talking to?

Cessna: I don't deny microevolution at work. We can see it under a microscope. I also don't have a problem with natural selection. I do, however, have a problem with the extrapolation of these ideas to say that on a huge timescale everything evolved from the ultimate in simplicity. That doesn't make sense to me. If you have evidence that shows how life comes from nonliving matter or that species evolve into each other (I'm not talking about changes within species or breeding or other microevolutionary changes here), I'm all ears. The problem is our definitions of evolution. I've got no problem with saying that organisms adapt. You'd expect them to. It's part of "responding to stimuli..." and whoever responds best to the stimuli has a better chance of surviving. The trouble is that evolution really isn't a fact. It hasn't been proven.

I'm starting to see the pointlessness of it all. Maybe you're right. Maybe there is no order. Maybe it's just my imagination. Maybe I did come from an ape. Maybe my thoughts are just the result of a random proliferation and extenuation through the ages of designless chemical processes. But I don't think so.

Here. Let me test it. I'm writing a random number generator. It will generate values between one and 255, then it will save those to a file. When I read it back from the file into my program, it will convert all those numbers into their ASCII variants. I'll let you know if it ever produces any sort of "order." Perhaps I'll wind up with the Bible, Shakespeare, or maybe a copy of the Origin of Species. Until then, I'll be in the hot deals forum. I'll check back in a billion.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<< So can you tell me what possible ethical stance I can take if I believe that there is no God and that everything is the result of random chance? >>

Logic.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
xirtam, In response to :<< The simpler explanation must be prefered because it is the simpler explanation. No matter how impossible it may seem that we got here by purely material means, it is less irrational to assume material unknowns that then it is to invent an irrational unknown to explain unknowns. >>, you say:

"What if material unknowns are irrational? I think it's a simpler explanation to say that God created everything."

I would say the problem with that is that you are making an extra and unnecessary assumption about the unknown, that it is irrational, and from there you postulate that between two irrationals, one has greater appeal to you. I can't go with you because I don't make the assumption that what I don't know is irrational. The universe seems to be here. It then may be a necessary condition, if I understand your use of that term.

Now Elledan and I agree on some things, but he didn't quote the part of my statement that leans more toward some of the things you have been saying like intuition, etc., but which I doubt appeals to you either. :D The last part of my statement was this:

"It seems more likely to me that one of the artifacts of consciousness which we arrived at purely by chance evolution, is that once it occurrs, it instantly invents God in its own image. There aren't, of course, many people around who know what it means to be conscious."

This example occurs to me: Suppose that awareness is like words being written on a mobius strip. Ordinarily we take awareness to be the words and their meaning, but what if real consciousness is awareness of the mobius strip itself, the infinite silent peace on top of which we have our being. In such a case, it will always occur to people that there is something deeper than what they take for reality.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<< Whoa, there's still people that don't believe in evolution because they can't "see it?" Bwhahaha. >>


Yeah, they're fossils :D
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
0


<< jliechty: Who the heck are you talking to? >>


I'm talking to Elledan, who said...


<< - I don't have a 'belief'. I've formed a construction using the available evidence, and which is constantly changing. >>


Obviously, according to the definition of "believe" that I posted earlier, it appears that he "believes" the construction using the available evidence that he has formed, and changes this as necessary. IMHO, it appears that he just wants to make me look stupid by saying I "believe" something (which apparently is bad), while he doesn't.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<<

<< jliechty: Who the heck are you talking to? >>


I'm talking to Elledan, who said...


<< - I don't have a 'belief'. I've formed a construction using the available evidence, and which is constantly changing. >>


Obviously, according to the definition of "believe" that I posted earlier, it appears that he "believes" the construction using the available evidence that he has formed, and changes this as necessary. IMHO, it appears that he just wants to make me look stupid by saying I "believe" something (which apparently is bad), while he doesn't.
>>


Ah, semantics... are really getting that desperate?

I was talking about faith vs. blind faith. Science vs. religion (and other ideologies).
 

ProviaFan

Lifer
Mar 17, 2001
14,993
1
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<< Ah, semantics... are really getting that desperate? >>


Well, you had to resort to name-calling and such earlier...for example, calling me a moron, and saying Christians are going to "live on as mere beasts, without the ability to reason. Honorless". But yet you think it isn't ok for me to point out where you're mistaken in a small area. Great logic, indeed.
rolleye.gif



<< I was talking about faith vs. blind faith. Science vs. religion (and other ideologies). >>


Basically, it appears to come to the issue of either "in the beginning, matter" or "in the beginning, God". To me, it would seem to take more faith to believe that matter came into being autonomously, than to believe that God created matter. But since you have already decided that you will reject all things spiritual (according to someone who saw you post on this topic in a different thread; if they're wrong, please let me know), my beliefs are going to seem very foreign to you.
Of course, you will never leave me alone until I believe as you do, and that is not going to happen (at least not any time soon), so if that's your intent, you might as well stfu.
 

deftron

Lifer
Nov 17, 2000
10,868
1
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<<
Basically, it appears to come to the issue of either "in the beginning, matter" or "in the beginning, God". To me, it would seem to take more faith to believe that matter came into being autonomously, than to believe that God created matter. But since you have already decided that you will reject all things spiritual (according to someone who saw you post on this topic in a different thread; if they're wrong, please let me know), my beliefs are going to seem very foreign to you.
Of course, you will never leave me alone until I believe as you do, and that is not going to happen (at least not any time soon), so if that's your intent, you might as well stfu.
>>



Just curious...In the Bible it says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
That was the very first thing he did. So before Earth and heaven, there was nothing?
Do the Abrahamic religions believe this was the beginning of existence or that God was around for awhile before he
started creating stuff?