Technically both side think they're right. If christians didn't think they were right about the fact that there is a G-d then I don't think they'd be thiests exactly.
From a christians point of view one of the things that is great about religion is knowing that you have it "figured out", at least concerning G-d.
Now an agnostic at least has the right answer to the G-d question.
Q: Is there a G-d?
A: "I don't know"
I used to call myself agnostic. Until I realized that regardless of your level of disbelief, if God or Jesus popped up in front of me and identified Himself with proof, any of us would suddenly become believers.
So I decided I was done with the cop-out that is agnosticism.
TecHNooB
Diamond Member
- Sep 10, 2005
- 7,458
- 1
- 76
Just read your original post.. seems like your doing a good job. As for your wife? Well, what can you do ;/ I don't believe in God/Jesus myself. Let me clarify. The God/Jesus of the Bible. It's just too much BS. I do believe in the possibility of a creator who has made a world based on a logic that scientists are currently discovering. That said, I hate how religion bashes science.
When I say I'm an agnostic I mean that I am skeptical about the existence of God, no More no less. I'm not dead set against the idea of there being a god, I'm just unwilling to make what seems to be a huge leap in logic by believing absolutely that there is. If Jesus appeared before me with proof as you say, then I would most certainly become a believer. How is that a cop-out?
I honestly think that everyone would be agnostic if they all looked at it logically. After all noone has irrefutable proof of the existence or non-existence of a higher power nor do they have the means of aquiring it.
Never understood the "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that seems prevalent on both end of the spectrum or the idea that I HAVE to decide right now whether or not I'm going to believe in god.
I may never get the proof I need to make that step so I reserve the right to NEVER make a final decision on the subject.
I knew when I read the Topic Title this was going to be many pages long.
If you knew that at 20 years old your son would be tortured very severely for 50 years if he didn't live in this "good" place. This "good" place taught good moral lessons such as treat your neighbor how you would like to be treated and so forth.
When your son said ?Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies". It would be like saying I don?t want to live in that good place, I want to live elsewhere where I would be tortured beyond measure till the end of my days.
Regardless of how you feel about it, this is pretty much how your wife sees it. It is destroying her not to have her own child saved from the eternity of hell. When she heard those words it was a knife twisting in her heart.
In all honesty I call sens on the entire post, but if it is true WTF were you thinking in marring someone whose beliefs were complete opposite of yours.
You?re headed for divorce, which in this case may be best for everyone.
If you knew that at 20 years old your son would be tortured very severely for 50 years if he didn't live in this "good" place. This "good" place taught good moral lessons such as treat your neighbor how you would like to be treated and so forth.
When your son said ?Why would I want to go listen to a bunch of people worshipping their fantasies". It would be like saying I don?t want to live in that good place, I want to live elsewhere where I would be tortured beyond measure till the end of my days.
Regardless of how you feel about it, this is pretty much how your wife sees it. It is destroying her not to have her own child saved from the eternity of hell. When she heard those words it was a knife twisting in her heart.
In all honesty I call sens on the entire post, but if it is true WTF were you thinking in marring someone whose beliefs were complete opposite of yours.
You?re headed for divorce, which in this case may be best for everyone.
Do you really believe that? Christ appeared among a very large group of people who 1) believed in God, and 2) where expecting him to come. After presenting proof to those people of who he was, they still didn't believe him. What makes you think agnostic people will be any different.
It seems to me that you are expecting some specific sort of "proof" that God is God. How do you know that when he comes that he will present you with just that "proof" you're looking for? Also, why should he the time to "prove" to the unbelievers that he is God when such proofs are widely available today if people will simply open their eyes to them.
Don't get me wrong, I do hope that if/when proof is presented, such people will believe, but what is going to stop them from just later pawning off such "proof" as coincidental or happenstance?
Christ's gospel has always been based upon faith, and always will be. You can't simply expect to accept something and dedicate yourself to it simply from seeing "proof" without having first exercised faith in the belief.
Your son seems to have a problem with showing respect to his mother. Your wife also needs to learn to respect your son's beliefs and not try to shove her beliefs down his throat. That will only piss him off and make him hate religion. I personally don't think it's right that your wife forces your daughter to go to church but that's just me.
I myself am extremely glad my parents never took me to church. Both of them are Christian and definitely have Christian views on quite a few things. Had they forced me to go to church I probably would have grown up despising it. Instead I stopped believing in a god altogether when I was around 13 or 14. My parents know my beliefs and they respect them. They realize my views are different from theirs but have no problem whatsoever with it. Because they never forced a religion on me, I think I'm much more respectful of religion and religious people.
I myself am extremely glad my parents never took me to church. Both of them are Christian and definitely have Christian views on quite a few things. Had they forced me to go to church I probably would have grown up despising it. Instead I stopped believing in a god altogether when I was around 13 or 14. My parents know my beliefs and they respect them. They realize my views are different from theirs but have no problem whatsoever with it. Because they never forced a religion on me, I think I'm much more respectful of religion and religious people.
You're right. I am.
Even according to the Bible, Jesus was just a man. His "proof" was his preaching, being able to read minds, turning water into wine, and making food appear. His resurrection was "seen" by how many?
He didn't do these things often enough to prove his divine status to the general populace. Otherwise the Romans would have added him to their list of gods. The Jews would have never doubted his status as messiah.
In fact, there is serious scholarly debate as to whether he ever really claimed to be the son of God in any way other than as all men are the sons of God.
So, yeah. I want concrete proof. I like reason. Religion requires faith without reason.
Originally posted by: Eli
haha....
Man, that must be rough.
I'll pray to the God with the noodly appendages for you.
:thumbsup:
i just read the first and last page of posts. this seems to really have digressed from what the OP wanted. if you want to bicker about your religious/nonreligious beliefs, do it elsewhere like in PMs.
DurocShark, i'm not married and am too young for kids of your age (well actually some people think 18 is old enough) but what i can say is (if you haven't done this already) is speak with your wife. i'm not gonna go personal or anything but it could have been her time of the month so that could have triggered the argument. i don't know how devout your wife is but from what it seems, she's pretty religous. i'd just tell her "our son is in a rebelling part of his life so just let him do as he pleases and if christianity is in his heart, he will come to you later in life when his hormones, etc. have stopped controlling him." not sure how effective it'll be but hope i help. is this the thread with the highest post count?? you've got quite a few pages of posts
DurocShark, i'm not married and am too young for kids of your age (well actually some people think 18 is old enough
) but what i can say is (if you haven't done this already) is speak with your wife. i'm not gonna go personal or anything but it could have been her time of the month so that could have triggered the argument. i don't know how devout your wife is but from what it seems, she's pretty religous. i'd just tell her "our son is in a rebelling part of his life so just let him do as he pleases and if christianity is in his heart, he will come to you later in life when his hormones, etc. have stopped controlling him." not sure how effective it'll be but hope i help. is this the thread with the highest post count?? you've got quite a few pages of postsI went ahead and posted this on a religous board. If anybody wants to see the totally different (sarcasm) path the post is taking: http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=6633
EDIT: Changed "right" to "sarcasm" in case anybody misunderstands.
EDIT: Changed "right" to "sarcasm" in case anybody misunderstands.
I'm not gonna register to be able to see anything beyond the 1st reply but if the rest are like his, well, you asked for it by posting there. That's like going into a Chevy forum with a Ford avatar and ragging on GM
Originally posted by: conjur
I'm not gonna register to be able to see anything beyond the 1st reply but if the rest are like his, well, you asked for it by posting there. That's like going into a Chevy forum with a Ford avatar and ragging on GM
Indeed. But there are atheists on that board too so it's been interesting so far.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
Originally posted by: DurocShark
Originally posted by: conjur
I'm not gonna register to be able to see anything beyond the 1st reply but if the rest are like his, well, you asked for it by posting there. That's like going into a Chevy forum with a Ford avatar and ragging on GM
Indeed. But there are atheists on that board too so it's been interesting so far.
is it a productive discussion?
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
yhelothar
Lifer
- Dec 11, 2002
- 18,409
- 39
- 91
Yup my mom stopped going to church for that very same reason too. But then again, most christians would argue that only "bad" churches forces people to pay.
But then again, today I was looking through an "average salary" reports site, and it reported that non-profit pastors make an average of $60-80k. I never even knew you could get a salary for being a pastor, let alone such a high income for the job.
Maybe subconsciously. But it's a different type of discussion there.
Yeah, I think it's been productive from a debate perspective. As for helping with my original issue? Not so much.
The resurrection itself, none. People who saw him *after* he was resurrected, quite a few, thousands actually.
Often enough? How often does he have to do them? The Jews (as a whole) where unwilling to accept Christ as the promised Messiah because they were looking for a great General to triumph over their enemies and free them from bondage. What they didn't understand was that that was his role during the second coming, not his initial life here on Earth. That's why they didn't accept him, not because of lack of miracles, but lack of understanding on their parts.
As for the Romans, his teachings, at that time, where not for the Romans, so he did not spend much time with them. Romans did not grow up with that same understanding of Christ that Jews did, so to expect them to understand his purpose or his calling would be very demanding. However, even given that, some did come to understand.
Oh yes, he did claim very certainly to be the only Begotten Son of God. Not the *only* son, but the *only begotten* son of God. However, his mission was not to go around and scream out to the rooftops that he was the Son of God. Such would not be appropriate. Rather, as always, he had people exercise faith in him as the Son of God, and then confirmed their faith.
I understand your desire, but your saying "If the Bible is true, and Christ is who it says he is, I want some kind of sign or evidence." However, Christ himself states "..., An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a asign; and there shall no sign be given to it..." (Matt. 16:4). Do you see the contradiction? You're requiring Christ to show you a sign in order for you to believe, and Christ requires you to believe before he will show you a sign. What you want can't happen in the way you want it to.
Signs simply aren't proof, nor do they produce faith. Think of Pharoah during the plagues of Egypt, the Children of Israel during the Exodus, or the Jewish leaders during the life of Christ. All saw and experienced more "miracles" and witnessed more "proof" of the existence of God than anyone, and yet they still doubted, or just flat out didn't believe.
So I just wonder, how do you think seeing a sign from God will alter your beliefs? If you find justifications for the "proofs" already testified of by others, why will you not do the same for any proofs presented to you?
god people I was raised in a christian home, I was expected to be christian, around 13-14 I started questioning it my mind, I chose for my self to go without religion even with both my parent presuring the other. I outright told my mom (it was more to piss her off in context) I haven't told my dad I he has gotta know, since I haven't been to church besides family function type of deals in 6 years.
I think everyone should be exposed to religion (can't refute something without knowing what you don't beleave in is all about) but I think it should be there choice on what to do once they reach a certain age.
I think everyone should be exposed to religion (can't refute something without knowing what you don't beleave in is all about) but I think it should be there choice on what to do once they reach a certain age.
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