Chris Christie and the pension debacle.

[ivwshane]

Yep, it has to be all the Republican governor's fault. No way the Democratically controlled State Senate and General Assembly has a hand in what's in the yearly budget

Put up or shut up!

 

[ivwshane]

Wah, wah, wah, it's not fair!!!!!!!

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ss...ion_in_2013_straining_christie_on_budget.html

The state's debt is almost $80billion. Are public sector unions supposed to some protected entity immune to unfairness, unlike the common citizens who are subjected to unfairness on a daily basis? Oh, I feel so much for the unions and their promised paydays! Common citizens have never seen government make promises and screw them over, only unions, and now unions must take from the citizens so they can feel right again.

You do realize that unions represent workers right? And you do know that public workers are citizens right?

Your butthurt has caused you to go full retard

 

[MrPickins]

Public employees get paid ridiculous sums of money; maybe they should've saved the money they got paid the first time rather than demanding that the productive to bail them out.

Yeah, how dare they expect the government to honor its end of the contract!

 

[Brainonska511]

Public employees get paid ridiculous sums of money; maybe they should've saved the money they got paid the first time rather than demanding that the productive to bail them out.

Says the guy that has never held a job and is mooching off his parents.

 

[Moonbeam]

Says the guy that has never held a job and is mooching off his parents.

Yeah, but it's not something that should be rubbed in. He unjustly hates himself because he is dependent and projects it on others who are too. He needs to accept the fact that he has a disability and that folk like me don't hold that against him like he holds it against himself.

 

[werepossum]

Yeah, but it's not something that should be rubbed in. He unjustly hates himself because he is dependent and projects it on others who are too. He needs to accept the fact that he has a disability and that folk like me don't hold that against him like he holds it against himself.

Well said, Moonie.

 

[glenn1]

He's not biting the bullet, he's skipping pension payments.

For a guy that ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility his conduct has been anything but. Foolish infrastructure cuts, reneging on deals he made, skipping pension payments, using budget gimmicks, etc, etc.

He's done everything he complained about his predecessor doing, basically.

Yes, I realize that and it's certainly not helping things. But one or two skipped payments isn't the reason things are in bad shape and structural reforms are still needed, at least he's not ignoring the issue completely which is at least a positive step. Probably the only way a workable solution is going to happen is for everyone to share the pain - employees get some benefit cuts, taxpayers kick in more to reduce the pension fund shortfalls, etc. Kinda sucks for NJ since their taxes are already high.

 

[Anarchist420]

Says the guy that has never held a job and is mooching off his parents.

I do work for my parents, so it isnt like I only take without giving anything to them. And I could've applied for SSI and medicaid a long time ago, but I never have (if I did that, then I would still be living with my parents and spending stolen money on luxuries or inheriting more).

So the only party who gets shorted in relation to my condition is the insurance company (but then I wouldnt even use insurance if the two medications I took were at market level prices).

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Put up or shut up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Senate#Composition

Senate 60% Democrat/40% Republican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_General_Assembly#Composition

General Assembly 60% Democrat/40% Republican

Read and weep hack!!!!

 

[ivwshane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Senate#Composition

Senate 60% Democrat/40% Republican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_General_Assembly#Composition

General Assembly 60% Democrat/40% Republican

Read and weep hack!!!!

While I appreciate the effort (I really do), you need a little more detail to back up your claim. For example, how is the budget created? By congress? By the governor and then approved by congress? Who voted which way? Did we have 100% of repubs voting yes and only 5 dems voting yes as well? Not only that but to prove your point you would also have to show how the previous budgets not only contributed to the current mess but that it was also helped by a majority of dems.

I ask for this info not because your statement may or may not be correct but because the devil is in the details. For example, we can blame clinton for signing nafta but it would be dubious to put all the blame on him and not his predecessor. It's the same reason why blaming obama for a trillion dollar budget, while accurate, doesn't tell the full story and does properly place the blame.
And in my opinion, accurately placing the blame is important so that a good solution to the problem can be achieved.

Are you up for the challenge or do you want to be like most people and just point the finger at the other guy while totally absolving your own guys responsibility?

 

[cubby1223]

You do realize that unions represent workers right? And you do know that public workers are citizens right?

Your butthurt has caused you to go full retard

Unions represent a very, very small fraction of workers, and they act solely in their own self-interests. I would have thought you'd be not stupid enough to separate out that when I talk about the general citizens being unfairly forced to lose some of their wealth to cover the promises made to unions, I'm talking about the vast percentage citizens who are not a part of that specific union. My fault for assuming people like you were capable of filling in the most obvious of specific details. If you need everything specifically listed out like you are a two-year old beginning learning the basic facts of the world around him, then I suppose that is how we will have to interact with you from here on forward.

The only people who are butthurt are the union workers who are finally waking up to the reality that they are not special. The government (even Democratically controlled, see Chicago and the teacher's union battles as a prime example) will no longer cave to their pissy fits.

 

[glenn1]

While I appreciate the effort (I really do), you need a little more detail to back up your claim. For example, how is the budget created? By congress? By the governor and then approved by congress? Who voted which way? Did we have 100% of repubs voting yes and only 5 dems voting yes as well? Not only that but to prove your point you would also have to show how the previous budgets not only contributed to the current mess but that it was also helped by a majority of dems.

I ask for this info not because your statement may or may not be correct but because the devil is in the details. For example, we can blame clinton for signing nafta but it would be dubious to put all the blame on him and not his predecessor. It's the same reason why blaming obama for a trillion dollar budget, while accurate, doesn't tell the full story and does properly place the blame.
And in my opinion, accurately placing the blame is important so that a good solution to the problem can be achieved.

Are you up for the challenge or do you want to be like most people and just point the finger at the other guy while totally absolving your own guys responsibility?

I don't think we need to determine fault prior to working on a solution, indeed I feel it's typically one of the biggest impediments to fixing a problem. But if you require someone to blame first then fine, done - Christie and GOP are 100% at fault. Feel better?

Now it would be nice to proceed with thinking more than a couple news cycle ahead or even "so far" as the next election. This is basically an existential problem not only for New Jersey but governments at almost all levels, and we're going to need to face certain facts. Like government employees were promised more in benefits than can realistically be paid. Part of it is demographics and increasing lifespans, part is use of an unsustainable fixed benefit rather than fixed contribution methodology, and politicians "buying off" union support with taxpayer monies is another. Taxpayers did their part by ignoring the simple truth that the projections being used were bogus and happily accepted the reduced tax burden which should have been collected to shore up the pension funds.

In short, there is no simple and fair way to fix things where no one gets hurt and all promises can be honored. The only way it works is if the pain is shared and everyone has to take their lumps. Right now Christie is avoiding getting his lumps and the unions are using it as an excuse to avoid theirs. But this overlooks the fundamental challenge that ultimately the unions and retirees are the ones with the most to lose and need to be the ones to come to the table. Even if they force Christie to back down on this for now, the problem isn't going away. It can be delayed but ultimately it's gotta be fixed or it will fail catastophically.

 

[ivwshane]

Unions represent a very, very small fraction of workers, and they act solely in their own self-interests. I would have thought you'd be not stupid enough to separate out that when I talk about the general citizens being unfairly forced to lose some of their wealth to cover the promises made to unions, I'm talking about the vast percentage citizens who are not a part of that specific union. My fault for assuming people like you were capable of filling in the most obvious of specific details. If you need everything specifically listed out like you are a two-year old beginning learning the basic facts of the world around him, then I suppose that is how we will have to interact with you from here on forward.

The only people who are butthurt are the union workers who are finally waking up to the reality that they are not special. The government (even Democratically controlled, see Chicago and the teacher's union battles as a prime example) will no longer cave to their pissy fits.

You seem to be confused. In one scentence you says unions aren't citizens and act in their own self interest and in the next you say the only people who are butthurt are union workers. Well if unions only care about themselves then why would workers who belong to unions bd butthurt? Surely unions represent the workers, the workers, as I pointed out and you continually try to ignore, are citizens, tax payers, voters, Americans, families, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. You demonizing union members does nothing to change that. And I can almost bet 100% that if you were in that same situation where your company reneged on its contract to you that you would just shut up and take it. You certainly wouldn't "know your place".

 

[ivwshane]

I don't think we need to determine fault prior to working on a solution, indeed I feel it's typically one of the biggest impediments to fixing a problem. But if you require someone to blame first then fine, done - Christie and GOP are 100% at fault. Feel better?

No. The point wasn't to just find blame it was to understand how we got there in the first place, understanding how we got where we are allows us to not make the same mistakes twice.

 

[glenn1]

No. The point wasn't to just find blame it was to understand how we got there in the first place, understanding how we got where we are allows us to not make the same mistakes twice.

How do you figure we won't make the same mistakes twice? We do all the time. I outlined some of the main reasons in the post you quoted and all have the same thing in common: it was expedient for all parties to ignore the problem until it became a crisis. Unions and employees got bigger benefits, politicians got their eager support, taxpayers enjoyed the crooked calculations which reduced their tax bills.

That's one of the main problems with a democracy. The people and politicians can't be held accountable in the future for the bad or greedy decisions they make today, thus all thinking is selfish and short-term. If a terrible decision is made, the worst that can happens is the politician loses his job or the voters move to another state but the bad decision remains and some other poor schmuck has to deal with the carnage. Look at Detroit for a prime example. There ought to be a way to permanently oblige voters and politicians to the decisions they make rather than just walking away from them.

 

[ivwshane]

How do you figure we won't make the same mistakes twice? We do all the time. I outlined some of the main reasons in the post you quoted and all have the same thing in common: it was expedient for all parties to ignore the problem until it became a crisis. Unions and employees got bigger benefits, politicians got their eager support, taxpayers enjoyed the crooked calculations which reduced their tax bills.

That's one of the main problems with a democracy. The people and politicians can't be held accountable in the future for the bad or greedy decisions they make today, thus all thinking is selfish and short-term. If a terrible decision is made, the worst that can happens is the politician loses his job or the voters move to another state but the bad decision remains and some other poor schmuck has to deal with the carnage. Look at Detroit for a prime example. There ought to be a way to permanently oblige voters and politicians to the decisions they make rather than just walking away from them.

My hope and this goes for all issues is that we become an informed populace and with knowledge of history we won't repeat mistakes and we will recognize potential issues before they arise. Will that ever happen? Probably not but that's my hope. It's why I berate those that show willful ignorance and it's why I try to correct wrong information, it's why I have no problem being wrong and called out on it and it's why I always seek the truth. Stupidity needs to be shamed and pushed to the dark corners of humanity, it's what holds us back as a species.