Chiropractors ? Diagnosis ? My Wife

[eits]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: NatePo717
A Chiropractor is ment for joints and bones and such. Not for internal organs and stuff like that. The Chiropractor just gave a diagnosis of what they specialize in so you shouldn't be angry at them.

well, chiropractors can come up with a differnential, but if it isn't in their expertise or scope of practice, they need to refer out. in this case, the chiropractor did her tests and felt that it was a musculosckeletal problem.

the thing that makes me think that your wife probably wasn't providing the proper information or that the doctor wasn't asking the right questions is the fact that visceral pain is different than somatic pain. a pulmonary embolism doesn't feel like a strained intercostal muscle or a bruised rib. the doctor can only go on what the patient gives them.

your wife could have been sent out for a ct, but it would have had to have been to confirm her differential diagnosis. an x-ray wouldn't have shown anything.

The Chiro should have immediatly sent her to her doctor - period.

not if the patient was describing somatic pain without giving any indications of having a pulmonary embolism.

however, i wasn't in the exam room with her and didn't see her physical dx exams, so i can't say whether or not she truly should have. however, i will give the benefit of the doubt to the chiropractor that if the patient described a somatic problem of the musculoskeletal nature and exhibited no symptoms or indications of having a pulmonary embolism and had no risk factors or history of blood clots, then she wouldn't have come up with a p.e. in her differential.

honestly, people, even if she went to a family care medical doctor, the diagnosis would have probably still been a strained intercostal muscle or bruised rib. fortunately, the op did the right thing and took her to the emergency room when it got real bad. good job, op.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
IME, chiropractors can do a very good job in their field. They kept me moving for about 20 years, till things finally got too bad. (some damage a simple adjustment isn't gonna help)
OP, you don't say what kind of surgery your wife had, but it seems odd that your wife would go to a chiro that soon after surgery, unless it was something minor. That seems to have been a brain-fart on the wife/MIL's part. No way (based on the info you gave here) that he should have expected an blood clot...sounds like a pulled muscle...sudden sharp pain? muscle pull...BUT, given the recent surgery...she should have gone to a medical doctor anyway...

qft.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Tiamat
Modern Medicine > Alternative Medicine

There are limits to alternative medicine of course, but it's that acquiescent mentality that so many have when it comes to their health that I think causes a lot of the problems that we have today, especially gastrointestinal problems with the indiscriminate use of antibiotics, etc. So many people are mobile apothecaries with incredible pill-popping frequency simply because their doctor gave them a prescription.

Sometimes there are ways to address common problems without resorting to pharmaceutical solutions.

Blind trust of any authority is never the right course of action, and that includes practicioners of modern or alternative medicine.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: djheater

Originally posted by: NL5
You took her to a Chiro right after surgery - while having complications. Wow. I dunno whatto say. That was not too smart.

Agreed, it was also the chiropractor's responsibility to say, "Go to your primary care physician, you just had surgery. When you've completely healed from that, come to me if you're still having issues"

If I was having trouble speaking following troat surgery, I wouldn't go to a proctologist.
That being said the medical and chiropractic communities are complementary, and we should endeavor to use them as such.

good post.... i especially agree with that last part.

 

[49erinnc]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They kept me moving for about 20 years, till things finally got too bad.

For me, this sums up the downside of chiros actually. In my opinion, Chiros tend to just help people live with less pain but aren't able to actually fix the problem if it's something severe. Not sure they'd want to if they could because they'd rather make money from convincing you that you need to come see them once a week for 20 years.

Is helping people live with less pain a bad thing? No, not at all. But I just have to question whether or not this is the best approach when maybe something like surgery at an earlier age could fix a problem for good. For me personally, I just don't want to be a slave to a chiro and depend on that person for a pain-free life. I could easily go to a Chiro for my ruptured neck disc and I'm sure he'd have me feeling great. But he's not gonna get rid of the rupture. It's gonna always be something that haunts me and limits me in my daily routine. So I'd rather have the surgery and fix the problem rather then become dependent upon a chiro.

Hope the OP's wife has a full recovery...

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: hehatedme

Originally posted by: eits
in the chiropractor's defense, your wife could have been bad at describing what was wrong and the kind of pain she was having. based on the information the chiropractor was receiving, it could have lead her to come up with a completely different differential diagnosis. also, if your wife said she took aspirin, the chiropractor might have completely ruled out a blood clot because aspirin's an anticoagulant... it unstickifies your platelets and helps break up little clots (which is why you take it when you feel like you're having a heart attack).

where did your wife have surgery? that might have also come into play with the dc's differential diagnosis.

honestly, i don't think you should be angry with the chiropractor... i think if you took her to a general practitioner or family doctor, you might have come up with a very similar diagnosis. i think the only reason you ended up getting the pulmonary embolism diagnosis was because the cat scan revealed it.

He said that the nurse took down some info and made the diagnoses herself before the catscan. The chiro was probably in over his head, and should have refered the patient to someone that could have helped

if the chiro was in over her head, then, you're right... she should have sent the patient to someone who knew what was going on... however, that's why i suspect that the op's wife was describing a somatic issue and the chiropractor had no reason to suspect a blood clot.

it wasn't until it got worse that the op took his wife to the hospital. whenever it gets worse and the patient can explain what else they're experiencing (granted that it's different and/or worse than before), it would make for a new differential.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: eits
you're right... they need a undergrad degree and go through 5 academic years of medical education, not to mention 4 national board exams and a state board exam, in order to get their doctorate.

Who said anything about a doctorate? State by state listing of requirements. Most states don't require even a bachelor's degree as seen on that list. Want another source? Link #2 says:

What states require a bachelor's degree as well as a DC degree to practice Chiropractic medicine?

Florida, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, and the U.S. Virgin Islands all require DCs to have a bachelor's degree as well as the chiropractic degree. Most chiropractic colleges now recommend getting a bachelor's degree either before or concurrently with the DC degree.

Again, most states don't require much education at all. Some states do.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: 49erinnc

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They kept me moving for about 20 years, till things finally got too bad.

For me, this sums up the downside of chiros actually. In my opinion, Chiros tend to just help people live with less pain but aren't able to actually fix the problem if it's something severe. Not sure they'd want to if they could because they'd rather make money from convincing you that you need to come see them once a week for 20 years.

Is helping people live with less pain a bad thing? No, not at all. But I just have to question whether or not this is the best approach when maybe something like surgery at an earlier age could fix a problem for good. For me personally, I just don't want to be a slave to a chiro and depend on that person for a pain-free life. I could easily go to a Chiro for my ruptured neck disc and I'm sure he'd have me feeling great. But he's not gonna get rid of the rupture. It's gonna always be something that haunts me and limits me in my daily routine. So I'd rather have the surgery and fix the problem rather then become dependent upon a chiro.

Hope the OP's wife has a full recovery...

boomerd has severe degenerative disc disease/osteoarthritis. it's not something that can be fixed, whether you're talking about a chiropractic treatment plan or a medical treatment plan. it comes from not taking care of your spine and joints whenever you had the chance. there are 6 stages... he's in the latter stages.

think of it as rheumatoid arthritis. you can't fix it, but you can certainly make the patient feel a lot better, increase their mobility and range of motion significantly, and improve their way of life.

i don't see how that could possibly "sum up the downside to chiros".

 

[Tiamat]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Tiamat
Modern Medicine > Alternative Medicine

There are limits to alternative medicine of course, but it's that acquiescent mentality that so many have when it comes to their health that I think causes a lot of the problems that we have today, especially gastrointestinal problems with the indiscriminate use of antibiotics, etc. So many people are mobile apothecaries with incredible pill-popping frequency simply because their doctor gave them a prescription.

Sometimes there are ways to address common problems without resorting to pharmaceutical solutions.

Blind trust of any authority is never the right course of action, and that includes practicioners of modern or alternative medicine.

People these days do not know how to think for themselves. Obviously, blindly trusting any authority is never the right course of action. I would go to a medical doctor before going to a quacky doctor first after exhausting my own research though. Getting CAT scans, X-rays, endoscopies, and similar just is better at producing results that lead to a proper diagnosis.

In other words, I agree with what you said ;p

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: eits
you're right... they need a undergrad degree and go through 5 academic years of medical education, not to mention 4 national board exams and a state board exam, in order to get their doctorate.

Who said anything about a doctorate? State by state listing of requirements. Most states don't require even a bachelor's degree as seen on that list. Want another source? Link #2 says:

What states require a bachelor's degree as well as a DC degree to practice Chiropractic medicine?

Florida, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, and the U.S. Virgin Islands all require DCs to have a bachelor's degree as well as the chiropractic degree. Most chiropractic colleges now recommend getting a bachelor's degree either before or concurrently with the DC degree.

Again, most states don't require much education at all. Some states do.

in order to get a doctorate of chiropractic in almost every chiropractic school in the country, you have to have an undergraduate degree.

although it doesn't state that a bachelor's is required, it virtually is. you can't just come fresh out of high school into chiropractic school (med school) for 5 years and get your doctorate. you have to have your bachelor's in almost all schools before you graduate with your dc.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: eits
in order to get a doctorate of chiropractic in almost every chiropractic school in the country, you have to have an undergraduate degree.

although it doesn't state that a bachelor's is required, it virtually is.

Again I ask, who said anything about DOCTORATE of chiropractic?

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: eits
in order to get a doctorate of chiropractic in almost every chiropractic school in the country, you have to have an undergraduate degree.

although it doesn't state that a bachelor's is required, it virtually is.

Again I ask, who said anything about DOCTORATE of chiropractic?

?? in order to be licensed as a doctor of chiropractic and practice chiropractic, you must have your doctorate.

 

[PAB]

This thread is a great example for the PAB Doctrine.

When you think you need to talk to ATOT about a big life changing event, you shouldnt be talking to ATOT and on the phone with a lawyer, or doctor, or somebody who KNOWS WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

That is all.

 

[Amused]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Chiropractic quackery.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: eits
?? in order to be licensed as a doctor of chiropractic and practice chiropractic, you must have your doctorate.

In some locations yes. But that isn't what is being discussed. Eeezee made a silly comment. You denied his comment. I showed that his comment was true. It is silly but true. You are just distracting from Eeezee's original comment.

Here is the same discussion with details changed to avoid your personal attachment to chiropractic care.
[*]Eeezee: vehicles don't even need 4 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Motorcycles only need 2 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Who said anything about SUVs?

Now do you see my point? Eeezee was correct, you were arguing a completely different argument.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: eits
?? in order to be licensed as a doctor of chiropractic and practice chiropractic, you must have your doctorate.

In some locations yes. But that isn't what is being discussed. Eeezee made a silly comment. You denied his comment. I showed that his comment was true. It is silly but true. You are just distracting from Eeezee's original comment.

Here is the same discussion with details changed to avoid your personal attachment to chiropractic care.
[*]Eeezee: vehicles don't even need 4 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Motorcycles only need 2 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Who said anything about SUVs?

Now do you see my point? Eeezee was correct, you were arguing a completely different argument.

gotcha. i misunderstood what the argument was. thanks for clarifying

well, in the case of your analogy, the department of transportation recognizes that not all vehicles have 4 wheels and they also recognize that 4 wheels make for a MUCH safer vehicle than one with only 2 wheels. that's why they're implimenting regulations in order to insure that all future vehicles have 4 wheels... that way, the driver is very well protected and taken care of as best as possible.

 

[NaOH]

Even my doctor is quack. Doesn't really do a diagnosis, just agrees with whatever I say I feel. Like if I said, I think it's allergies. He will just give me allergy medicine.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: mitchelt
I don?t know how I feel about this, and I?m curious as to what you think.

My wife had surgery 6 days ago, and all was going fine. She could not lay down on our water bed because it did not give her enough support. She decided to sleep on the couch which is more firm.

4 days after surgery she tried to get up from the couch and she felt a sharp pain, she thought she pulled something and took some aspirin and I applied some Icy- Hot. The next day is was still hurting a lot, I was not home and her mom was watching her. Her mom decided to take my wife to her Chiropractor to see what they could do.

The Chiropractor checked her out and concluded that my wife pulled a muscle and some how shifted some of her ribs and bruised them.

Later that evening the pain was really bad and I took her to the hospital. They did some blood work and performed a cat-scan. They came back and told her she has a blood clot in her left lung and that they needed to admit her. She is now on blood thinners and morphine for the pain, she will be in the hospital for at least three days.

What bothers me is how does the Chiropractor come up with such a radically different diagnosis. She knew my wife had surgery a few days back. The nurse at the hospital took down our info and within a few minutes guessed at what the problem was.

I don?t know if I should be angry at the Chiropractor or not?believe me I have no intention of calling her or making any problems/waves.

I look forward to hearing your comments.

The chiroquacker f'ed up. You should inform him of the correct diagnosis your wife got from the hospital no thanks to him.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AMDUALY
Even my doctor is quack. Doesn't really do a diagnosis, just agrees with whatever I say I feel. Like if I said, I think it's allergies. He will just give me allergy medicine.

perfect example of what i was saying...
like i said before, the only thing doctors have to go on is what the patient says. doctors aren't allowed to send for imaging or blood work unless they're using them as a confirmation for their differential. that's why if patients come in and tell the doctor what they're experiencing and what they're symptoms are, they can only go off of what info they're given. so, if you say that it's allergies, the doc's gonna give you allergy medicine...

for example, if i open my clinic and someone walks in and says, "my back hurts," i can't them into my x-ray room and x-ray them and go from there. that's against the law and they'd take my license. however, if i do my orthopedic tests and regional exams and find that my patient could have a rib head fracture or an abdominal aortic aneurysm or whatever, i can take an x-ray or send out for blood work for confirmation that my working diagnosis is correct.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: AMDUALY
Even my doctor is quack. Doesn't really do a diagnosis, just agrees with whatever I say I feel. Like if I said, I think it's allergies. He will just give me allergy medicine.

Exactly.

It's hard to find a doctor that will actually listen to your symptoms and actually reason his way through a result that isn't limited to whatever is in the samples cabinet.

I've actually had doctors say, "We'll treat it as if..."; in other words, treat it as though I do have what I see him to diagnose.

To me, many doctors have failed to serve their primary purpose: To help patients understand what is wrong. It seems many no longer care about understanding and simply take whatever is prescribed, but sometimes it simply doesn't require it. A minor cold with sinus congestion doesn't necessarily need an entire round of antibiotics that gives you thrush, GI problems, and everything else.

I had a doctor in my hometown that would actually have discussions with me. I'd ask questions, tell him what I knew/didn't know and he'd take the time to elaborate for me. He wouldn't prescribe anything unless he felt it absolutely necessary, and in most cases it wasn't. Contrast this with my internist that will give me Celebrex at the slightest hint of pain, Paxil because I'm stressed/anxious and whatever the hell else I "need."

A little education goes a long way. People are so quick to medicate.

</rant>

 

[msparish]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: eits
?? in order to be licensed as a doctor of chiropractic and practice chiropractic, you must have your doctorate.

In some locations yes. But that isn't what is being discussed. Eeezee made a silly comment. You denied his comment. I showed that his comment was true. It is silly but true. You are just distracting from Eeezee's original comment.

Here is the same discussion with details changed to avoid your personal attachment to chiropractic care.
[*]Eeezee: vehicles don't even need 4 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Motorcycles only need 2 wheels.
[*]Eits: All SUVs need at least 4 wheels.
[*]Dullard: Who said anything about SUVs?

Now do you see my point? Eeezee was correct, you were arguing a completely different argument.

It may be true about the bachelors, but other professions such as dentists don't require them either. I am also thinking that you can get into a couple US med schools without a bachelors degree. In any case, although it isn't technically required, it is extraordinarily difficult to be accepted into one of the schools without one.

 

[CollectiveUnconscious]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
Chiropractors are quacks. I would never, EVER, go to one again. I still have no feeling in my left pinky, ring, and middle fingers. It's been that way for 2 years.

it's because the nerve roots in the bottom of your neck are pinched up.

Funny, because the doctor I went to afterward told me the nerves were damaged and I would regain minimal feeling, if any at all.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: AMDUALY
Even my doctor is quack. Doesn't really do a diagnosis, just agrees with whatever I say I feel. Like if I said, I think it's allergies. He will just give me allergy medicine.

Exactly.

It's hard to find a doctor that will actually listen to your symptoms and actually reason his way through a result that isn't limited to whatever is in the samples cabinet.

I've actually had doctors say, "We'll treat it as if..."; in other words, treat it as though I do have what I see him to diagnose.

To me, many doctors have failed to serve their primary purpose: To help patients understand what is wrong. It seems many no longer care about understanding and simply take whatever is prescribed, but sometimes it simply doesn't require it. A minor cold with sinus congestion doesn't necessarily need an entire round of antibiotics that gives you thrush, GI problems, and everything else.

I had a doctor in my hometown that would actually have discussions with me. I'd ask questions, tell him what I knew/didn't know and he'd take the time to elaborate for me. He wouldn't prescribe anything unless he felt it absolutely necessary, and in most cases it wasn't. Contrast this with my internist that will give me Celebrex at the slightest hint of pain, Paxil because I'm stressed/anxious and whatever the hell else I "need."

A little education goes a long way. People are so quick to medicate.

</rant>

3 cheers for this post.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: CollectiveUnconscious
Chiropractors are quacks. I would never, EVER, go to one again. I still have no feeling in my left pinky, ring, and middle fingers. It's been that way for 2 years.

it's because the nerve roots in the bottom of your neck are pinched up.

Funny, because the doctor I went to afterward told me the nerves were damaged and I would regain minimal feeling, if any at all.

they are damaged... because they're pinched. you've got tiny vessels that run along your nerves in order to provide the axons with oxygen and glucose. whenever you pinch off that blood supply, the nerve starts to lose it's function. it starts tingling and you feel pins and needles (parasthesia) and, after some time of that without getting it fixed, you end up getting nerve permanent nerve damage in the form of paralysis (could be sensory, motor, or both). however, because the damage isn't in the cord, you can regain sensation.

the nerves that are literally being pinched to death, by the way, are the c7 and c8 spinal nerves... just in case you gave a crap


peripheral nerves can regrenerate and function properly once being damaged or even cut. neural tracts in the central nervous system cannot (naturally, that is... they can with embryonic stem cells and this new "glue" they just discovered).

 

[CollectiveUnconscious]

Originally posted by: eits
they are damaged... because they're pinched. you've got tiny vessels that run along your nerves in order to provide the axons with oxygen and glucose. whenever you pinch off that blood supply, the nerve starts to lose it's function. it starts tingling and you feel pins and needles (parasthesia) and, after some time of that without getting it fixed, you end up getting nerve permanent nerve damage in the form of paralysis (could be sensory, motor, or both). however, because the damage isn't in the cord, you can regain sensation.

peripheral nerves can regrenerate and function properly once being damaged or even cut. neural tracts in the central nervous system cannot (naturally, that is... they can with embryonic stem cells and this new "glue" they just discovered).

Then why would I be told I would not regain sensation? I went about a month after my chiropractic visit, when sensation completely disappeared, and this is what I was told. I'd be very interested to learn of any way that I could remedy this annoyance.