Chiropractic - the good, the bad and the ugly

[So]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
meh, move the chiro education into med school, and licensing and review processes should be similar. Practices should be based on peer reviewed scientific studies. Across the board, for anyone wanting to practice chiro. Until then, then industry is not reformed.

The thing is, if you move chiro into med school, and remove all the pretend BS, all you have is PT which is already there.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: dman
There are a lot of treatments for conditions that medical science doesn't understand, and they work. Skeptics might consider it placebo effect,but, because of the lack of controlled studies it's hard to say either way. If you think it's a joke, dont' go, but, wait until you have a condition that isn't treatable via traditional medicine and I bet most folks will give alterntive options a go.

As it happens I do have a condition that is not treatable by traditional medicine. It's not a painful condition and not life threatening but it's humiliating and extremely frustrating. If there was even a shred of evidence that alternative medicine could help me I'd jump on the chance to try it out, but I'm not going to go throwing money at some pseudodoctor to tell me that my nerve damage is the result of subluxation and can be fixed if I'm only willing to stuff his pockets for the next six months.

As a matter of fact, I reluctantly tried acupuncture (because my mum really wanted me to and paid for it) and shockingly it didn't help, but the "doc" continued to try and book appointments with me twice a week.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Hatred is not the right word. I use strong language to try to warn people against pseudoscience and towards evidence-based medicine. I don't hate chiropractors, but I am dismayed by the public's lack of knowledge and almost total acceptance of something for which there is no evidence.

You claim that there is no evidence, but in your OP you admitted that there was some evidence. I'll also point out that there exists a significant literature on the efficacy of accupuncture. I've never been to a chiropractor or accupuncturist, but I do know a world-renowned heart surgeon who visits both as he deems necessary. He told me that chiropractors are great at fixing back problems - you just have to ignore all of the other crap that they might try to push on you. He also tries "herbal" medicines when traditional pharmacy fails and one of his daughters is a pharmacist.

I've noticed that you think you know everything, have read all of the literature, and have all of the answers on every subject. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a zealot, quack, idiot, or some other arbitrary label. Bottom line: there are at least a few people that know a lot more about certain subjects than yourself. You try to preemptively downplay their knowledge or input by throwing out your labels and trying to paint them as ignorant before they've even said anything. Ironically, I've most commonly found this same behavior among evangelical Christians who can't defend anything they believe, so they disparage anyone who tries to make a counter-claim, throw out false information, or some other similar tactic. For example, the current book I'm reading ("Human Accomplishment" by Charles Murray) indicates that Andrew Still is the father of osteopathy, which is the real foundation of chiropracty. He was an MD like his father and "founded" osteopathy in 1874. Its founding is considered one of the ~100 most important events in the history of medicine according to the pretty rigorous methods applied by Murray.

Like I said, I've never been to a chiropractor and probably won't ever go to one, but pretending to "inform" people by giving them information that is biased and based in ignorance is hardly helping anyone.

You're right. Facts have a profound bias toward reality. What, specifically, do you take issue with in the OP? Or is this just a general whinge?

As for osteopathy, let's start with this: "[I can] shake a child and stop scarlet fever, croup, diphtheria, and cure whooping cough in three days by a wring of its neck". Guess who said that? Andrew Taylor St- waaaait a minute... that's the guy you're reading about!

I should also note that Osteopaths (D.O.) generally have the same training as medical doctors, in addition to OMT.

Our "family doctor" is an osteopath. Best dammed doctor we've ever had.

I like the guy because he has a down-to-earth approach to medicine.

he doesn't order epensive and usually un-needed tests because he's a partner in the place where you have to go for the test

He isn't a pill-pusher, and doesn't prescribe dozens of dammed pills that you don't need. (getting a prescription from him is often difficult...you sometimes have to ask him for one)

He knows how to do the "manipulations" much as a chiropractor, but rarely does...except for specific problems.

A big plus for me...he has small fingers. :shocked:

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: dman
There are a lot of treatments for conditions that medical science doesn't understand, and they work. Skeptics might consider it placebo effect,but, because of the lack of controlled studies it's hard to say either way. If you think it's a joke, dont' go, but, wait until you have a condition that isn't treatable via traditional medicine and I bet most folks will give alterntive options a go.

As it happens I do have a condition that is not treatable by traditional medicine. It's not a painful condition and not life threatening but it's humiliating and extremely frustrating. If there was even a shred of evidence that alternative medicine could help me I'd jump on the chance to try it out, but I'm not going to go throwing money at some pseudodoctor to tell me that my nerve damage is the result of subluxation and can be fixed if I'm only willing to stuff his pockets for the next six months.

As a matter of fact, I reluctantly tried acupuncture (because my mum really wanted me to and paid for it) and shockingly it didn't help, but the "doc" continued to try and book appointments with me twice a week.

i've seen two cases in which bell's palsy was properly treated by chiropractic care. in the first case, it was my friend's daughter. she's 7. she regained full nerve function. the other is by a girl i dated in undergrad for a couple weeks. if i remember correctly, she regained around 65% or so nerve function. she'd had it ever since she was a child. however, she never ended up getting more than 65% recovery.

if i were you, i'd do some research on it and then i'd try and find the best chiropractor in australia (i highly doubt there are many good chiropractors in nz whereas there are tons in australia) and give them a shot. what would it hurt? the worst thing that can happen is that you spent money for yet another trial of care by a doctor that didn't end up working. you can always make more money, but you can't always make the other half of your face work without at least trying other options.

i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: dman
There are a lot of treatments for conditions that medical science doesn't understand, and they work. Skeptics might consider it placebo effect,but, because of the lack of controlled studies it's hard to say either way. If you think it's a joke, dont' go, but, wait until you have a condition that isn't treatable via traditional medicine and I bet most folks will give alterntive options a go.

As it happens I do have a condition that is not treatable by traditional medicine. It's not a painful condition and not life threatening but it's humiliating and extremely frustrating. If there was even a shred of evidence that alternative medicine could help me I'd jump on the chance to try it out, but I'm not going to go throwing money at some pseudodoctor to tell me that my nerve damage is the result of subluxation and can be fixed if I'm only willing to stuff his pockets for the next six months.

As a matter of fact, I reluctantly tried acupuncture (because my mum really wanted me to and paid for it) and shockingly it didn't help, but the "doc" continued to try and book appointments with me twice a week.

i've seen two cases in which bell's palsy was properly treated by chiropractic care. in the first case, it was my friend's daughter. she's 7. she regained full nerve function. the other is by a girl i dated in undergrad for a couple weeks. if i remember correctly, she regained around 65% or so nerve function. she'd had it ever since she was a child. however, she never ended up getting more than 65% recovery.

if i were you, i'd do some research on it and then i'd try and find the best chiropractor in australia (i highly doubt there are many good chiropractors in nz whereas there are tons in australia) and give them a shot. what would it hurt? the worst thing that can happen is that you spent money for yet another trial of care by a doctor that didn't end up working. you can always make more money, but you can't always make the other half of your face work without at least trying other options.

i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

From the wikipedia article on bell's palsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_palsy):

Recovery

Even without any treatment, Bell's palsy tends to carry a good prognosis. In a 1982 study[18], when no treatment was available, of 1,011 patients, 85% showed first signs of recovery within 3 weeks after onset. For the other 15%, recovery occurred 3?6 months later. After a follow-up of at least 1 year or until restoration, complete recovery had occurred in more than two thirds (71%) of all patients...

So, unless you can show me a peer reviewed study, I'd call your thoughts on Bell's Palsy being cured by chiropractic medicine an example of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" thinking. And if you're a real evidence based doctor, I really hope you don't accept that as evidence.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: eits
i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

I could say the same thing about homeopathy, reflexology, aural projection, aromatherapy, wheatgrass juice, acupuncture, applied kinesiology, iridology, therapeutic touch, and fumigation of the asshole. How many thousands should I waste on pseudomedicine before I decide enough is enough?

I'm 23 years old.

Edit - I should also add that there is no logical reason chiropractic could possibly work on my condition. Even if you believe the Innate energy hoopla about subluxations and whatnot, how is cracking my back going to help my Innate Energy flow from my brain to the 7th cranial nerve in my face, which passes nowhere near the neck or spine? The very idea that spinal manipulation could help bell's palsy is ridiculous. Add this to the fact that my BP not strictly a Bell's Palsy, but Ramsey Hunt Syndrome, a facial palsy with a known cause. Funnily enough, that cause isn't a lack of innate energy flow, it's damage to the 7th cranial nerve by the chicken pox virus. No amount of muscular-skeletal manipulation is going to help my nerves grow back.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: eits
i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

I could say the same thing about homeopathy, reflexology, aural projection, aromatherapy, wheatgrass juice, acupuncture, applied kinesiology, iridology, therapeutic touch, and fumigation of the asshole. How many thousands should I waste on pseudomedicine before I decide enough is enough?

I'm 23 years old.

Edit - I should also add that there is no logical reason chiropractic could possibly work on my condition. Even if you believe the Innate energy hoopla about subluxations and whatnot, how is cracking my back going to help my Innate Energy flow from my brain to the 7th cranial nerve in my face, which passes nowhere near the neck or spine? The very idea that spinal manipulation could help bell's palsy is ridiculous. Add this to the fact that my BP not strictly a Bell's Palsy, but Ramsey Hunt Syndrome, a facial palsy with a known cause. Funnily enough, that cause isn't a lack of innate energy flow, it's damage to the 7th cranial nerve by the chicken pox virus. No amount of muscular-skeletal manipulation is going to help my nerves grow back.

A positive attitude may do a lot more for your condition than the constant animosity you display towards your fellow man. Really, try it.

 

[NoReMoRsE]

Chiropractors don't believe in vaccination. I say send them back in time and let them contract the Black Plague.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Alone
All I know is that one day I went in feeling like shit, then came out feeling wonderful.

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. Nor will your incessant trolling.

Same here. So either I , along with a good number of the San Francisco 49'ers were taken in, duped and actually, my back has been removed and I am in a drug induced coma, along with a zillion other people, all hanging from the ceiling from wires and this is just some sort of collective dream .... :disgust:

OR

Some people respond better to the various methods used in Chiropractic Medicine than others.

Just like the results from Pharma- Based School of Medicine.



Your rigid way of looking at things will only serve you until something comes along that exists beyond those boundaries. Then, you must adjust your thinking, or lose your mind.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste, as long as it isn't sociopathic.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: SphinxnihpS

If the other member is indeed a chiropractor, getting "trolled" is about a billionth of what he deserves.

Chiropractors PREY on people just like priests, televangelists, and Nigerian email scammers. Gut shooting is too good for people like this.

Really? Fingernail pulling wouldn't do?
There's a fine line between opinionated and troll. :disgust:

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
History cliffs
-- Chiropractic was invented in a single day based on a single incident by a single person
-- The inventor was a magnetic healer and spiritualist
-- Chiropractic gained huge political power and a crackpot leader

Does this mean Doctors are all frauds, because early history included leeches and blood letting?

Blood letting is still used for certain conditions/diseases/illnesses.

Hemochromatosis

Phlebotomy is the modern version of Blood letting.

Bloodletting is used today in the treatment of a few diseases, including hemochromatosis and polycythemia; however these rare diseases were unknown and undiagnosable before the advent of scientific medicine. It is practiced by specifically trained practitioners in hospitals, using modern techniques.

PS. If you watch House he has used leeches so it must be used in modern medicine

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I went to a chiro for neck pain. They told me to come off all my arthritis meds or I would die of liver failure, and that I had forward head posture syndrome, curable by daily applications of weights to my head and neck to strengthen the muscles and improve my posture.

The meds part alone was all I needed to hear. There's this whole thing about not being able to walk or use my hands that I kinda dislike. I told them to get lost and went to a real doctor.

I had a severely damaged C1/C2 (upper neck). If I'd used the weights prescribed to me, they could have damaged my spinal cord and caused very serious issues. I wound up getting a spinal fusion to fix the problem.

Holistic medicine isn't any good if it conflicts with regular medicine.

ugh... i didn't wanna get dragged in, so this is the only one i'm gonna reply to...

there are so many things wrong with this post...

1. do you actually have arthritis? if so, what kind? are they just pain pills or anti-inflammatories or what? the kind of arthritis matters. regardless, he had no business telling you that your meds would cause liver failure and you'd die... either that or you just misunderstood what he said. a lot of times, patients kinda take things the complete wrong way... for example: "we're just going to run some tests on the biopsy to make sure it's not cancerous" = "OMG YOU HAVE CANCER!"

Rheumatoid arthritis. I'm on Enbrel currently, was on methotrexate and plaquenil at the time. Yes, MTX is hell on the liver. He did straight up tell me I'd die of liver failure. He had a daughter with cancer (might have been leukemia, not sure) who was on mtx, and "the meds were worse than the disease". I definitely didn't misunderstand what he said; he spent ten or fifteen minutes emphasizing that I should go off the meds right away despite my responses describing the impact of RA without meds.

2. forward head posture syndrome? that's just ridiculous. he made that up.

No idea about that. For all I know it's common chiro, but it could be just as well made up by him individually.

3. adding weights to your head for an anterior head carriage = headaches, sprain/strain of the neck, and just overall wrongness

Sounds pretty right.

4. if you have rheumatoid arthritis, you have weak ligaments between c1 and c2, so any high-velocity low amplitude adjusting at that area is contraindicated. in fact, adding weights to your head IF you had rheumatoid arthritis and he never checked for atlanto-axial instability with a routine 3-view cervical series on x-ray would be HIGHLY negligent. it could have potentially ended up killing you.

EXACTLY. My big problem with chiros now is that the regulations and training are significantly unequal between practitioners. If it's a medical science it should be held to the same standards. Anyone practicing without the same basic medical training of any other doctor should be prosecuted. [edit] He did do an x-ray, just for the record.

5. the guy you saw was definitely a quack and it pisses me off that you had to suffer through that. this is just another example of why people need to research chiropractors before they go to them. some, like this one, are quacks. however, most are good.

Regulation of the medical practice came about for good reason. I think chiros should be subject to the same regulations, be a trained doctor the same as any other. Especially when some people are now choosing them as the primary resource for treating certain pains and illnesses.

we are (now), for the most part. back then, it wasn't the case. back then, they were just trying to keep the profession alive, so they sent anyone though the doors. the american medical association spread all kinds of propaganda (which you can easily find on chirobase.com and hear from godlessastronomer) to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession. you can read more about it in wilk v ama if you want. it went to the supreme court.

chiropractic school takes 5 academic years to complete. we are taught the same things and use the same books as are used in med school. the difference is that we are also taught chiropractic techniques and put more of an emphasis on anatomy and physiology of the human body. in med school, the emphasis is more on pharmacology. chiropractic school isn't nearly as selective as med school yet, but it's getting there.

"Back then" was 2004. I'm 25.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: dman
There are a lot of treatments for conditions that medical science doesn't understand, and they work. Skeptics might consider it placebo effect,but, because of the lack of controlled studies it's hard to say either way. If you think it's a joke, dont' go, but, wait until you have a condition that isn't treatable via traditional medicine and I bet most folks will give alterntive options a go.

As it happens I do have a condition that is not treatable by traditional medicine. It's not a painful condition and not life threatening but it's humiliating and extremely frustrating. If there was even a shred of evidence that alternative medicine could help me I'd jump on the chance to try it out, but I'm not going to go throwing money at some pseudodoctor to tell me that my nerve damage is the result of subluxation and can be fixed if I'm only willing to stuff his pockets for the next six months.

As a matter of fact, I reluctantly tried acupuncture (because my mum really wanted me to and paid for it) and shockingly it didn't help, but the "doc" continued to try and book appointments with me twice a week.

i've seen two cases in which bell's palsy was properly treated by chiropractic care. in the first case, it was my friend's daughter. she's 7. she regained full nerve function. the other is by a girl i dated in undergrad for a couple weeks. if i remember correctly, she regained around 65% or so nerve function. she'd had it ever since she was a child. however, she never ended up getting more than 65% recovery.

if i were you, i'd do some research on it and then i'd try and find the best chiropractor in australia (i highly doubt there are many good chiropractors in nz whereas there are tons in australia) and give them a shot. what would it hurt? the worst thing that can happen is that you spent money for yet another trial of care by a doctor that didn't end up working. you can always make more money, but you can't always make the other half of your face work without at least trying other options.

i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

From the wikipedia article on bell's palsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_palsy):

Recovery

Even without any treatment, Bell's palsy tends to carry a good prognosis. In a 1982 study[18], when no treatment was available, of 1,011 patients, 85% showed first signs of recovery within 3 weeks after onset. For the other 15%, recovery occurred 3?6 months later. After a follow-up of at least 1 year or until restoration, complete recovery had occurred in more than two thirds (71%) of all patients...

So, unless you can show me a peer reviewed study, I'd call your thoughts on Bell's Palsy being cured by chiropractic medicine an example of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" thinking. And if you're a real evidence based doctor, I really hope you don't accept that as evidence.

sorry, don't have that. all i have is anecdotal evidence. the onset happened waaay before treatment in both cases. they've tried medical doctors and acupuncture in the past. nothing worked. after seeing the chiropractor many years later, they started regaining voluntary control of their face. therefore, one can deduce that chiropractic helped.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: eits
i'm not saying that you will, without a doubt, see results through chiropractic care. i'm saying you might. i've got nothing to gain out of this whether you try it or not... just do it for yourself. you can even do it in secret if you want and continue bashing chiropractic. i'd just hate for you to have the other half of your smile waiting for you and you not even try to explore that avenue because you're stubborn and skeptical.

real quick, how old are you?

I could say the same thing about homeopathy, reflexology, aural projection, aromatherapy, wheatgrass juice, acupuncture, applied kinesiology, iridology, therapeutic touch, and fumigation of the asshole. How many thousands should I waste on pseudomedicine before I decide enough is enough?

I'm 23 years old.

Edit - I should also add that there is no logical reason chiropractic could possibly work on my condition. Even if you believe the Innate energy hoopla about subluxations and whatnot, how is cracking my back going to help my Innate Energy flow from my brain to the 7th cranial nerve in my face, which passes nowhere near the neck or spine? The very idea that spinal manipulation could help bell's palsy is ridiculous. Add this to the fact that my BP not strictly a Bell's Palsy, but Ramsey Hunt Syndrome, a facial palsy with a known cause. Funnily enough, that cause isn't a lack of innate energy flow, it's damage to the 7th cranial nerve by the chicken pox virus. No amount of muscular-skeletal manipulation is going to help my nerves grow back.

it has nothing to do with your back. it has to do with your jaw.

but, whatever, it's cool... let your pride and stubbornness keep you from offering a full smile. see what i care.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: NoReMoRsE
Chiropractors don't believe in vaccination. I say send them back in time and let them contract the Black Plague.

that's not completely true. there are lots who don't. most do. they just can't do it because it's not in their scope of practice.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I went to a chiro for neck pain. They told me to come off all my arthritis meds or I would die of liver failure, and that I had forward head posture syndrome, curable by daily applications of weights to my head and neck to strengthen the muscles and improve my posture.

The meds part alone was all I needed to hear. There's this whole thing about not being able to walk or use my hands that I kinda dislike. I told them to get lost and went to a real doctor.

I had a severely damaged C1/C2 (upper neck). If I'd used the weights prescribed to me, they could have damaged my spinal cord and caused very serious issues. I wound up getting a spinal fusion to fix the problem.

Holistic medicine isn't any good if it conflicts with regular medicine.

ugh... i didn't wanna get dragged in, so this is the only one i'm gonna reply to...

there are so many things wrong with this post...

1. do you actually have arthritis? if so, what kind? are they just pain pills or anti-inflammatories or what? the kind of arthritis matters. regardless, he had no business telling you that your meds would cause liver failure and you'd die... either that or you just misunderstood what he said. a lot of times, patients kinda take things the complete wrong way... for example: "we're just going to run some tests on the biopsy to make sure it's not cancerous" = "OMG YOU HAVE CANCER!"

Rheumatoid arthritis. I'm on Enbrel currently, was on methotrexate and plaquenil at the time. Yes, MTX is hell on the liver. He did straight up tell me I'd die of liver failure. He had a daughter with cancer (might have been leukemia, not sure) who was on mtx, and "the meds were worse than the disease". I definitely didn't misunderstand what he said; he spent ten or fifteen minutes emphasizing that I should go off the meds right away despite my responses describing the impact of RA without meds.

2. forward head posture syndrome? that's just ridiculous. he made that up.

No idea about that. For all I know it's common chiro, but it could be just as well made up by him individually.

3. adding weights to your head for an anterior head carriage = headaches, sprain/strain of the neck, and just overall wrongness

Sounds pretty right.

4. if you have rheumatoid arthritis, you have weak ligaments between c1 and c2, so any high-velocity low amplitude adjusting at that area is contraindicated. in fact, adding weights to your head IF you had rheumatoid arthritis and he never checked for atlanto-axial instability with a routine 3-view cervical series on x-ray would be HIGHLY negligent. it could have potentially ended up killing you.

EXACTLY. My big problem with chiros now is that the regulations and training are significantly unequal between practitioners. If it's a medical science it should be held to the same standards. Anyone practicing without the same basic medical training of any other doctor should be prosecuted. [edit] He did do an x-ray, just for the record.

5. the guy you saw was definitely a quack and it pisses me off that you had to suffer through that. this is just another example of why people need to research chiropractors before they go to them. some, like this one, are quacks. however, most are good.

Regulation of the medical practice came about for good reason. I think chiros should be subject to the same regulations, be a trained doctor the same as any other. Especially when some people are now choosing them as the primary resource for treating certain pains and illnesses.

we are (now), for the most part. back then, it wasn't the case. back then, they were just trying to keep the profession alive, so they sent anyone though the doors. the american medical association spread all kinds of propaganda (which you can easily find on chirobase.com and hear from godlessastronomer) to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession. you can read more about it in wilk v ama if you want. it went to the supreme court.

chiropractic school takes 5 academic years to complete. we are taught the same things and use the same books as are used in med school. the difference is that we are also taught chiropractic techniques and put more of an emphasis on anatomy and physiology of the human body. in med school, the emphasis is more on pharmacology. chiropractic school isn't nearly as selective as med school yet, but it's getting there.

"Back then" was 2004. I'm 25.

by "back then," i mean back in the 20s-80s...

 

[Scarpozzi]

1. People are fat and have a lot of back & neck problems as a result of being overweight. Car accidents, falls, and other physical accidents cause inflamation that can take a lot longer to cure due to fat. (causes more inflamation and strain on the body)
2. Schools are businesses. They train people and charge a lot of money to produce "doctors". Despite the reputation for the industry...it's a niche market.
3. Insurance pays "doctors" well....particularly specialists. Chiropractors are getting a piece of the pie and are there to help those who seek their help.
4. Service industries, such as the medical field are filled with a lot of less-than-qualified doctors in every area. It's hit or miss that you'll get a good doctor, let alone a good Chiropractor. (good meaning he does more than just make bones pop and actually addresses the health problems that are causing misalignment or muscle strain)
5. The fat people I mentioned would much rather have someone crack a few bones to relieve pressure and work out air in their joints for them...rather than them getting up and exercising. The "service" industry is thriving based on this.

Having said all that, it's not just Americans. My aunt used to live in Tokyo, she was dating a japanese guy that was studying chiropractic medicine. He had to know a lot of anatomy including bone and muscle groups to understand what he was doing. I don't doubt that the American history of Chiropractors actually did start by a grocer. Most medical advice came from drugstores and groceries in the old days because they were the center of the towns. Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, all other tonics...were supposed to cure you of disease.

Cliffs:
Fatties are lazy.
Chiropractors are in it for the money.
Some Chiropractors may do a halfway good job....any doctor is only as good as their common sense and knowledge of the body and diseases. A degree only proves the doctor graduated...not that they were #1 in their class.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Alone
All I know is that one day I went in feeling like shit, then came out feeling wonderful.

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. Nor will your incessant trolling.

Same here. So either I , along with a good number of the San Francisco 49'ers were taken in, duped and actually, my back has been removed and I am in a drug induced coma, along with a zillion other people, all hanging from the ceiling from wires and this is just some sort of collective dream .... :disgust:

OR

Some people respond better to the various methods used in Chiropractic Medicine than others.

Just like the results from Pharma- Based School of Medicine.

Your rigid way of looking at things will only serve you until something comes along that exists beyond those boundaries. Then, you must adjust your thinking, or lose your mind.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste, as long as it isn't sociopathic.

Well placebo is a strong thing. I'm not saying it is the case for you, but it happens far more than people are willing to admit. You have to understand that there are a lot of factors involved and people are just saying to actually think about it and figure out what is actually the cause of you feeling better. Was it the chiropractic or was it something else? Would it be such a bad thing if you could get the result without ponying up money to someone for it?

Athletes are notoriously susceptible to buying into things, so thats not exactly a positive thing to say. They believe in magnetic bracelets and all sorts of other idiotic shit. I remember an article several years back about NBA players going to some guy that stuck big suction cups on their skin and they said they felt so much better because of it.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Scarpozzi
1. People are fat and have a lot of back & neck problems as a result of being overweight. Car accidents, falls, and other physical accidents cause inflamation that can take a lot longer to cure due to fat. (causes more inflamation and strain on the body)
2. Schools are businesses. They train people and charge a lot of money to produce "doctors". Despite the reputation for the industry...it's a niche market.
3. Insurance pays "doctors" well....particularly specialists. Chiropractors are getting a piece of the pie and are there to help those who seek their help.
4. Service industries, such as the medical field are filled with a lot of less-than-qualified doctors in every area. It's hit or miss that you'll get a good doctor, let alone a good Chiropractor. (good meaning he does more than just make bones pop and actually addresses the health problems that are causing misalignment or muscle strain)
5. The fat people I mentioned would much rather have someone crack a few bones to relieve pressure and work out air in their joints for them...rather than them getting up and exercising. The "service" industry is thriving based on this.

Having said all that, it's not just Americans. My aunt used to live in Tokyo, she was dating a japanese guy that was studying chiropractic medicine. He had to know a lot of anatomy including bone and muscle groups to understand what he was doing. I don't doubt that the American history of Chiropractors actually did start by a grocer. Most medical advice came from drugstores and groceries in the old days because they were the center of the towns. Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, all other tonics...were supposed to cure you of disease.

Cliffs:
Fatties are lazy.
Chiropractors are in it for the money.
Some Chiropractors may do a halfway good job....any doctor is only as good as their common sense and knowledge of the body and diseases. A degree only proves the doctor graduated...not that they were #1 in their class.

agreed with what you said, except for the 2nd cliffs notes. where'd that come from? it's not true, although many are... same with any other professional (medical doctor, lawyer, etc.).

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I went to a chiro for neck pain. They told me to come off all my arthritis meds or I would die of liver failure, and that I had forward head posture syndrome, curable by daily applications of weights to my head and neck to strengthen the muscles and improve my posture.

The meds part alone was all I needed to hear. There's this whole thing about not being able to walk or use my hands that I kinda dislike. I told them to get lost and went to a real doctor.

I had a severely damaged C1/C2 (upper neck). If I'd used the weights prescribed to me, they could have damaged my spinal cord and caused very serious issues. I wound up getting a spinal fusion to fix the problem.

Holistic medicine isn't any good if it conflicts with regular medicine.

ugh... i didn't wanna get dragged in, so this is the only one i'm gonna reply to...

there are so many things wrong with this post...

1. do you actually have arthritis? if so, what kind? are they just pain pills or anti-inflammatories or what? the kind of arthritis matters. regardless, he had no business telling you that your meds would cause liver failure and you'd die... either that or you just misunderstood what he said. a lot of times, patients kinda take things the complete wrong way... for example: "we're just going to run some tests on the biopsy to make sure it's not cancerous" = "OMG YOU HAVE CANCER!"

Rheumatoid arthritis. I'm on Enbrel currently, was on methotrexate and plaquenil at the time. Yes, MTX is hell on the liver. He did straight up tell me I'd die of liver failure. He had a daughter with cancer (might have been leukemia, not sure) who was on mtx, and "the meds were worse than the disease". I definitely didn't misunderstand what he said; he spent ten or fifteen minutes emphasizing that I should go off the meds right away despite my responses describing the impact of RA without meds.

2. forward head posture syndrome? that's just ridiculous. he made that up.

No idea about that. For all I know it's common chiro, but it could be just as well made up by him individually.

3. adding weights to your head for an anterior head carriage = headaches, sprain/strain of the neck, and just overall wrongness

Sounds pretty right.

4. if you have rheumatoid arthritis, you have weak ligaments between c1 and c2, so any high-velocity low amplitude adjusting at that area is contraindicated. in fact, adding weights to your head IF you had rheumatoid arthritis and he never checked for atlanto-axial instability with a routine 3-view cervical series on x-ray would be HIGHLY negligent. it could have potentially ended up killing you.

EXACTLY. My big problem with chiros now is that the regulations and training are significantly unequal between practitioners. If it's a medical science it should be held to the same standards. Anyone practicing without the same basic medical training of any other doctor should be prosecuted. [edit] He did do an x-ray, just for the record.

5. the guy you saw was definitely a quack and it pisses me off that you had to suffer through that. this is just another example of why people need to research chiropractors before they go to them. some, like this one, are quacks. however, most are good.

Regulation of the medical practice came about for good reason. I think chiros should be subject to the same regulations, be a trained doctor the same as any other. Especially when some people are now choosing them as the primary resource for treating certain pains and illnesses.

we are (now), for the most part. back then, it wasn't the case. back then, they were just trying to keep the profession alive, so they sent anyone though the doors. the american medical association spread all kinds of propaganda (which you can easily find on chirobase.com and hear from godlessastronomer) to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession. you can read more about it in wilk v ama if you want. it went to the supreme court.

chiropractic school takes 5 academic years to complete. we are taught the same things and use the same books as are used in med school. the difference is that we are also taught chiropractic techniques and put more of an emphasis on anatomy and physiology of the human body. in med school, the emphasis is more on pharmacology. chiropractic school isn't nearly as selective as med school yet, but it's getting there.

"Back then" was 2004. I'm 25.

by "back then," i mean back in the 20s-80s...

Ah, sorry. I thought you meant "back then" as the period of time I went to the chiro I was talking about.

 

[Robor]

I didn't read the whole looooong thread but I pretty much agree with the OP. One of my good friends father-in-law is a chiro and claims he can cure everything from back pain to migraine headaches. He sees him regularly to get 'adjusted' but he's also always complaining about his back. Is there a connection? Another thing that bothered me is his father-in-law did adjustments on their infant son. How can an infant need 'adjustments'? I dunno, maybe I'm jaded because I have relatives in the medical field who are anti-chiro? One thing I do know is I've never gone to one in my life and I have no issues with my joints.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: So
So, unless you can show me a peer reviewed study, I'd call your thoughts on Bell's Palsy being cured by chiropractic medicine an example of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" thinking. And if you're a real evidence based doctor, I really hope you don't accept that as evidence.

sorry, don't have that. all i have is anecdotal evidence. the onset happened waaay before treatment in both cases. they've tried medical doctors and acupuncture in the past. nothing worked. after seeing the chiropractor many years later, they started regaining voluntary control of their face. therefore, one can deduce that chiropractic helped.

I really hope that you don't accept anecdotal evidence with a straight face and then think that chiropractic medicine should be treated more like scientific medicine than a carnival sideshow.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: eits
sorry, don't have that. all i have is anecdotal evidence. the onset happened waaay before treatment in both cases. they've tried medical doctors and acupuncture in the past. nothing worked. after seeing the chiropractor many years later, they started regaining voluntary control of their face. therefore, one can deduce that chiropractic helped.

[/quote]

Bell's palsy is actually better treated with multiple viewings of Star Wars: The Clone Wars.

I don?t have any empirical evidence of this, either but my friend?s uncle?s partner?s son had Bell?s palsy and had tried many different treatments including medical doctors, acupuncture, and chiropractic in the past. Nothing worked, but many years later he watched Star Wars: The Clone Wars 3 times in a row and started regaining voluntary control of his face. Therefore, one can deduce that Star Wars: The Clone Wars helped.

BTW- I'm not trying to make fun of anyone with a medical condition like Ball's Palsy, I'm trying to point out the ridiculous logic being used by eits.

 

[potato28]

Well you can believe what you want to, but anytime that my upper shoulder or knees hurt I go see the chiropractor and it seems to work out really good.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: So
So, unless you can show me a peer reviewed study, I'd call your thoughts on Bell's Palsy being cured by chiropractic medicine an example of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" thinking. And if you're a real evidence based doctor, I really hope you don't accept that as evidence.

sorry, don't have that. all i have is anecdotal evidence. the onset happened waaay before treatment in both cases. they've tried medical doctors and acupuncture in the past. nothing worked. after seeing the chiropractor many years later, they started regaining voluntary control of their face. therefore, one can deduce that chiropractic helped.

I really hope that you don't accept anecdotal evidence with a straight face and then think that chiropractic medicine should be treated more like scientific medicine than a carnival sideshow.

And I know someone who went to the chiropracter and got cancer, so we can deduce that chiropracters cause cancer.

You can't claim to be "scientific" and at the same time pretend that anecdotal data is proof of anything. Well, you can, but you look like a damn fool.