China's Pollution Overlooked by the Kyoto Treaty

[Texmaster]

As some of you know by now, China and India are exempt under Kyoto which is one of many reasons why this is is a horrible treaty.

Now China is back in the news producing one of the most dangerous and harmful chemicals to the atmosphere, CFC-12. Banned in most nations, Japan is seeing bootleg CFC-12 entering into its country from China.


China's Smuggling Depletes Ozone

And the best part is not a word from the enviromental wakos that this is a problem. And of course Europe is silent as well.

 

[busmaster11]

Ah... Tex... you and your FAR RIGHT sources...

Tex, first off, I AGREE with you that CFC's that deplete ozone should never be used and that whoever does it should be persecuted and/or jailed for doing so. But, oh, hey! I didn't know repubs finally admitted chlorine deplete ozone... Congrats on finding that out though...

But before you go too far with China, not that being considerate is anything you might be likely to do, but here's a question, in the grand tradition of eTech... Was anyone b!tching at us when we went through our industrial revolution 100 years ago, and if you were around, would you have listened to them if they had?

 

[iamwiz82]

<< Ah... Tex... you and your FAR RIGHT sources...

Tex, first off, I AGREE with you that CFC's that deplete ozone should never be used and that whoever does it should be persecuted and/or jailed for doing so. But, oh, hey! I didn't know repubs finally admitted chlorine deplete ozone... Congrats on finding that out though...

But before you go too far with China, not that being considerate is anything you might be likely to do, but here's a question, in the grand tradition of eTech... Was anyone b!tching at us when we went through our industrial revolution 100 years ago, and if you were around, would you have listened to them if they had? >>



Our industrial revolution? better check your history books again. Great Britian was the first country to experience it, not the US.

Its amazing how left wingers will attack Bush for not going along with the Kyoto, but are upset that India and China are exempt.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Ah... Tex... you and your FAR RIGHT sources... >>



If they are the only ones to report it, then so be it.



<< Tex, first off, I AGREE with you that CFC's that deplete ozone should never be used and that whoever does it should be persecuted and/or jailed for doing so. But, oh, hey! I didn't know repubs finally admitted chlorine deplete ozone... Congrats on finding that out though... >>



Uh, I dont think anyone denies that they do and have done for a while which is why the ban went through so fast in the US.



<< But before you go too far with China, not that being considerate is anything you might be likely to do >>



ah a cheap shot, but go on..



<< , but here's a question, in the grand tradition of eTech... Was anyone b!tching at us when we went through our industrial revolution 100 years ago, and if you were around, would you have listened to them if they had? >>



The world has changed. More people means more pollution and that means we have to be more careful. Some countries missed the boat. Its not our job to accomidate them or give them a pass.

 

[duke]

busmaster,

Is that really fair though? 100 years or so ago, as you said, did we know CFCs were harmful? It is generally agreed upon today that CFCs are harmful and that safer alternatives are available. But you're right, even if other nations had bitched then we probably wouldn't have listened to them anyway.

 

[busmaster11]

<< Our industrial revolution? better check your history books again. Great Britian was the first country to experience it, not the US.

Its amazing how left wingers will attack Bush for not going along with the Kyoto, but are upset that India and China are exempt. >>



Uh... when did I say we were the first? Did I miss something?

I don't feel China and India should be fully exempt, but probably should join under less stringent regulations.

Then again, anytime compassion or consideration is mentioned as arguments, repubs can really do nothing but ignore or dismiss it. I've never seen it refuted... its funny...

 

[ManSnake]

Solution to the problem: Give China $100 billion/yr I am sure they will stop polluting the world

 

[iamwiz82]

<< Was anyone b!tching at us when we went through our industrial revolution 100 years ago, >>



The reason no one was bitching was because we were not the ones doing it first, everyone was doing it.

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< Was anyone b!tching at us when we went through our industrial revolution 100 years ago, >>



The reason no one was bitching was because we were not the ones doing it first, everyone was doing it. >>



What?!? China's not the first either then... What's your point? I don't care if/why people would bitch at us during ours... my point was that when you're going through one, you personally demand, and should be allowed the same leeway others took or were given... or atleast some reasonable consideration to that extent.

Duke: Sorry, I wasn't referring specifically to CFCs use during any industrial revolution, but if I were I'd agree with you.

 

[hungrypete]

Maybe we'll get lucky and it will only make a hole in the ozone over Asia. Really nothing you can do, as long as those are still on cars, people will use it. Retrofitting to the new stuff isn't as cheap as sticking with the old style.

 

[Texmaster]

<<

<< Our industrial revolution? better check your history books again. Great Britian was the first country to experience it, not the US. Its amazing how left wingers will attack Bush for not going along with the Kyoto, but are upset that India and China are exempt. >>

Uh... when did I say we were the first? Did I miss something? I don't feel China and India should be fully exempt, but probably should join under less stringent regulations. Then again, anytime compassion or consideration is mentioned as arguments, repubs can really do nothing but ignore or dismiss it. I've never seen it refuted... its funny... >>

<BR><BR>So only hold the nations with more money responsible and ignore the poorer ones even though they pollute?<BR><BR>Yup, you are definitly a Democrat.<BR><BR>It doesn't work unless we all contribute.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Maybe we'll get lucky and it will only make a hole in the ozone over Asia. Really nothing you can do, as long as those are still on cars, people will use it. Retrofitting to the new stuff isn't as cheap as sticking with the old style. >>



Its also used in industrial air conditioners.

I must say I am extremely disappointed that I have been taken off your sig! LOL

 

[hungrypete]

hey, we'll see if we can't get you back on there. You'll have to post something more controversial!

 

[Texmaster]

<< hey, we'll see if we can't get you back on there. You'll have to post something more controversial! >>



LOL I doubt that will be hard

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< Ah... Tex... you and your FAR RIGHT sources... >>



If they are the only ones to report it, then so be it. >>



If they are the only ones to report it that should tell you somehting about the story itself.



<<

<< Tex, first off, I AGREE with you that CFC's that deplete ozone should never be used and that whoever does it should be persecuted and/or jailed for doing so. But, oh, hey! I didn't know repubs finally admitted chlorine deplete ozone... Congrats on finding that out though... >>



Uh, I dont think anyone denies that they do and have done for a while which is why the ban went through so fast in the US. >>



Actually, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but CL+O3 --> CLO +O2 was discovered in 71 by a fella named Rowland at some uni... And we've been using the depleting CFCs as recently as 89, right?



<< The world has changed. More people means more pollution and that means we have to be more careful. Some countries missed the boat. Its not our job to accomidate them or give them a pass. >>



I'll have to agree with your first part... If it means more regulations on China because they enter their revolution late, thats a valid sacrifice. But if you say we need to be "more careful", I don't see any real sacrifices the repubs have endorsed for the US... ...could they really mean OTHER countries have to be more careful? :Q

 

[reitz]

<< I don't see any real sacrifices the repubs have endorsed for the US... >>

I'm not crediting any specific party, so don't read it that way, but compare American environmental protection laws with those of most of the rest of the world. Then come back and rejoin the debate.

 

[HowardStern]

If you only count things like cars and air conditioners, then true, we do pollute more. But I prefer to look at the big picture. All their feces and farting from 1billion Chinese and 1 Billion Indians really addds up. I think they are major league polluters and these things need to be taken into account also.
When you think about it they pollute way more than they are given credit for and probably the net makes them just as bad as us.

 

[Kosugi]

Tex,


Just because your neighbor doesn't clean his yard, it doesn't mean it's ok for you not to clean your yard.


Yes, Kyoto set a global ideal for fighting climate warming, but that happens one country at a time. And it is up to the number one polluter to start first.


The unfortunate thing is that the US walked away from the treaty, rather than working with it to lower certain unrealistic expectations. Clinton started to haggle with the Kyoto partners by introducing the idea of "carbon sinks", and such, to ease the US into it.

Your boy Bush just balked. And the US now has no control over the evolution of the treaty (yes, it is still changing), not to mention world moral leadership and ecological leadership has all but evaporated.

All that in just 6 months too... has to be a record. What took 50 years to build has been destroyed in just 6 months.

 

[Kosugi]

Reitz,

Actually, the US lags in one critical area of environmental control: Sprawl.


Sprawl destroys more wetlands, more farmlands, more animal habitat than anything in the first and second worlds. You'd have to go to third world burning of rainforests to find anything so devastating to the environment.

And guess what, the US leads the world in Urban Sprawl. It sickens me when I fly and I see no pristine areas left... And those that are left are threatened by this administration.

Though it was controversial and done during the final days of Clinton's office, his equating pristine federal lands with lands with out roads was the right thing to do.

But, if you constantly do the right thing (instead of Bush's "doing things right (for the industry)") you will most definitely inconvenience alot of people, but no matter, the moral high ground remains yours.

Europe and even Asia have very strict laws regarding Sprawl. In China, un-regulated sprawl can even carry the death sentence!

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< I don't see any real sacrifices the repubs have endorsed for the US... >>

I'm not crediting any specific party, so don't read it that way, but compare American environmental protection laws with those of most of the rest of the world. Then come back and rejoin the debate. >>



Why don't you compare what America spews, compared to the rest of the world, first... Other countries who might be comparable are mostly poor third-world nations, with more immediate concerns, like starvation and such... Why can't you selfish people ever take that into consideration?

 

[busmaster11]

<< If you only count things like cars and air conditioners, then true, we do pollute more. But I prefer to look at the big picture. All their feces and farting from 1billion Chinese and 1 Billion Indians really addds up. >>



That is so ignorant I don't think even Tex or eTech is willing to back you up... Come back when you graduate from high school...

 

[duke]

<< << If you only count things like cars and air conditioners, then true, we do pollute more. But I prefer to look at the big picture. All their feces and farting from 1billion Chinese and 1 Billion Indians really addds up. >>



That is so ignorant I don't think even Tex or eTech is willing to back you up... Come back when you graduate from high school... >>




LOL

 

[sandorski]

It is suck that China is using CFCs and international pressure should definitely be brought to bear on China. However, CFC use has nothing to do with the Kyoto Agreement, so the link between the 2 has no connection.

 

[Ferocious]

umm, China violates human rights on a daily basis. Do you think they care about the damn environment? Hell no.

That why the corporations love it there. They don't have to worry about the environment and of course they don't have to worry about worker's rights. Basically a CEO's wet dream come true.