China's Moving On Up

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
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In China, Low-End Industries Give Way to High-Tech

SHENZHEN, China ? Few people have heard of the BYD Corporation ? BYD for Build Your Dream ? but this little-known company has grown into the world?s second-largest battery producer in less than a decade of existence. Now it plans to make a great leap forward: ?We?d like to make a green energy car, a plug-in,? said Paul Lin, a BYD marketing executive. ?We think we can do that.?
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Even in go-go China, such lofty aspirations may sound far-fetched. But BYD has built a 1.6-million-square-foot auto assembly plant here and hired a team of Italian-trained car designers; it plans to build a green hybrid by the end of the year.

No longer content to be the home of low-skilled, low-cost, low-margin manufacturing for toys, pens, clothes and other goods, Chinese companies are trying to move up the value chain, hoping eventually to challenge the world?s biggest corporations for business, customers, power and recognition.

The government is backing the drive with a two-pronged approach: using incentives to encourage companies to innovate, but also moving to discourage low-end manufacturers from operating in southern China. That step would reverse one of the crucial engines of this country?s spectacular economic rise.

But by introducing tougher labor and environmental standards and ending tax breaks for thousands of factories here, the government has sent a powerful signal about its global ambitions, and helped encourage an exodus of factories from an area long considered the world?s shop floor.

President Hu Jintao hinted at China?s Olympic-size ambitions during a meeting of China?s scientific elite last June at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, where he called on scientists to challenge other countries in high technology. ?We are ready for a fight,? he said, ?to control the scientific high ground and earn a seat on the world?s high technology board. We will make some serious efforts to strengthen our nation?s competence.?

Government policies now favor high-tech economic zones, research and development centers and companies that promise higher salaries and more skills. A computer chip plant being built by Intel in the northern city of Dalian is welcomed; a textile mill churning out $1 pairs of socks is not.

?When a country is in its early stages of development, as China was 20 years ago, having an export processing center is good for growth,? said Andy Rothman, a longtime China analyst at CLSA, the investment bank. ?But there?s a point when that?s no longer appropriate. Now, China?s saying, ?We don?t want to be the world?s sweatshop for junk any more.?

Chinese firms are expanding into (or buying companies that work in) software and biotechnology, automobiles, medical devices and supercomputers. This year, a government-backed corporation even introduced its first commercial passenger jet, a move Beijing hopes will allow it to some day compete with Boeing and Airbus.

In some ways, the government is only riding the economic currents that come with development and high growth. For instance, many manufacturers in southern China ? the country?s biggest export zone ? are moving to the interior because land and labor costs are cheaper, or expanding operations to include in lower-cost countries, like India, Vietnam or Bangladesh.

World-class brands that have grown dependent on outsourcing labor-intensive production to China are now searching for alternatives. Even the retail behemoth Wal-Mart, which moved its global procurement center here to Shenzhen in 2002, is going to be forced to find new sourcing channels to fill its 5,000 stores worldwide.

For millions of consumers around the world, experts say the policy shift could also mean higher prices for a broad array of goods, from pens and hammers to Barbie dolls and running shoes.

?Basically the cost of things China produces for Home Depot and Wal-Mart are going up,? said Dong Tao, an economist at Credit Suisse. ?But there is another side. In some areas that China?s going to grab, like telecom equipment, they?ll push prices lower.?


Economists say China?s development is following in the footsteps of Japan and South Korea, which successfully transitioned from low-skilled manufacturing to high technology, services and the creation of global brands.

There are still plenty of obstacles here, including weak intellectual property rights enforcement and a culture of copying or stealing technology from foreign companies or joint venture partners. But experts point to positives like a rising aggressive entrepreneurial class, legions of newly minted science and engineering graduates and a fiercely competitive domestic marketplace.

Peter J. Williamson, a professor of management at Cambridge University and co-author of ?Dragons at Your Door: How Chinese Cost Innovation is Disrupting Global Competition,? challenges the notion that China doesn?t have technological know-how.

?They are some of the biggest in launching satellites. They have a lot of technology locked up in the military, and now the government is reducing budgets and pressing agencies to privatize,? he said. ?So suddenly, a lot of technology people thought didn?t exist has come out from behind the curtain.?
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This is what China is betting on.

At BYD, executives are ramping up research and development spending, studying global marketing strategies. Founded in 1995 by a scientist who studied metallurgy, the company has made lithium batteries, cellphones, camera equipment, auto parts and other components for Nokia, Motorola and Sony, among others, gaining experience in producing high-quality goods.

?The technology for a car is not that sophisticated,? Mr. Lin said. ?It?s big, but a lot of low technology.? Five years ago BYD bought a state-owned carmaker to help make the transition.

Another company hoping to make the leap is Hasee, a fast-growing computer maker also based in Shenzhen, in an area that is home to Huawei, China?s giant telecom equipment maker.

Founded just six years ago, Hasee is already selling 100,000 laptops a month and is the second biggest Chinese computer maker behind Lenovo, with revenue forecast to reach $800 million this year.

Hasee executives say the company is spending heavily on research and development, and that by focusing on innovative computers and laptops that now sell for just $370, it is on track to become the world?s biggest computer maker within a decade.

?Our strategy in China is to always focus on innovation,? said Zhang Xianyong, a Hasee vice president and sales manager for greater China. ?We?re now in the domestic market, but we?ll spare no effort to grab overseas expansion.?

Analysts say there are dozens of other little-known semiconductor, software and telecom equipment makers that could emerge as global companies over the next two decades.

The government is pressing companies to move up the value chain for economic, but also political reasons, analysts say. Promoting innovation and brand-name companies would probably bolster the economy and create better jobs.

The Hong Kong Small Business Association projects that by the end of the year, 20,000 factories in southern China will have closed or left China.

In April, Credit Suisse forecast that one-third of all export-oriented manufacturers could close within three years. And a study released in March by the American Chamber of Commerce Shanghai and Booz & Company, the consulting firm, says foreign investors are growing bearish on China and that rising costs are driving American manufacturing out of the country.

For many Chinese economists, that is just fine. ?The low end industries used to make a great contribution to Guangdong,? said Liang Guiquan, an economist at the Guangdong Academy of Social Sciences, a government think tank. ?But an enterprise is like a creation. They must get used to changes in the environment. If the environment changes, they must die out.?

Looks like China's economy is transitioning into high-tech areas like Japan and S Korea have been. Hopefully Walmart haters will find a new country to hate and blame in the future.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
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This is something that I've noticed happening. I wonder if Haier will be able to transition themselves into a well-respected brand like LG and Samsung.
 

Kuragami

Member
Jun 20, 2008
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I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,282
14,703
146
sunzt, are you a spokesman for the Chinese Public Affairs/Propaganda Department?
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: BoomerD
sunzt, are you a spokesman for the Chinese Public Affairs/Propaganda Department?
A ChiCom Spammer?

Haha, so I post a positive news story about China and I'm labled a propagandaist? Expected. If I post a positive story about the US government or say something positive about government, would that make me a government propagadist?

I clearly note that there are good and bad sides to China's government and progress in my previous posts. I'm not blind to the government's faults, but I'm not ignoring their acheivements either. Do you want me to always reference Human rights, Sudan, Tibet or always refer to China as "Communist China" everytime? Would that make you happy? Is that all I should know about China? Is that how I should be viewing China? Seriously....

Every topic started by others about China is so biased, unreliable, and always filled with anti-China hate. Remember the post about how Iraq's Olympic team was not allowed to compete? That immediately turned into a China hate-bash by the op and others even though China had nothing to do with it!! The hate here that some people have for China is just sickening and sometimes unreasonable. I just want people to know that there is more to China than just all the anti-China posts make it seem to be.

I would definately be more critical of China if I didn't think that there was so much anti-China hate already present here. Hate fuels more hate.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.



 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,591
2
71
Originally posted by: StormRider

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

Verily. However, I posit that quality costs more than in ye olde timey days o' yester yore. Indeed, quality was just standard then. Nowadays there is a lot of just plain junk that merely resembles what it is supposed to rather than actually functioning as it should and for the expected duration before it fails.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example
 

bdude

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2004
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76
I'd expect the same reaction if you posted about the US anywhere else in the world.
 

CottonRabbit

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2005
1,026
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0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example

You can't compare a high end washer with features like an "intelliclean impeller" (I'm guessing these are the disc impellers that replace a traditional column agitator of a washer to increase capacity and efficiency by mimicking a front-loader) and a "see-through lid" to the washer that your mom used. Sure there are a lot of "pro" and "designer" appliances nowadays with ridiculous prices, but you can still get very decent budget appliances. Just go read Consumer Reports from 20 years ago and compare the efficiency, features, and effectiveness of those appliances to the budget ones you find today.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

So overseas built things are less reliable? Like electronics and cars for example?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example

OH SHIT! Cars are WELL into 7 figures!!! We're all fucked now! Ford focus will be $250,000 soooon!
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
It makes sense. We are in the end times and the Word of God states it will be a huge force out of the east that will rule the world. Its only a matter of time.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: CottonRabbit
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example

You can't compare a high end washer with features like an "intelliclean impeller" (I'm guessing these are the disc impellers that replace a traditional column agitator of a washer to increase capacity and efficiency by mimicking a front-loader) and a "see-through lid" to the washer that your mom used. Sure there are a lot of "pro" and "designer" appliances nowadays with ridiculous prices, but you can still get very decent budget appliances. Just go read Consumer Reports from 20 years ago and compare the efficiency, features, and effectiveness of those appliances to the budget ones you find today.

I read his comment as saying there are non in the four-digit range, and showed there are.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
It makes sense. We are in the end times and the Word of God states it will be a huge force out of the east that will rule the world. Its only a matter of time.

Your facetious 'crying wolf' posts in every thread about any problem in society got old around the 500th thread. We understand you'll pooh-pooh up to a mid-sized nuke war.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example

OH SHIT! Cars are WELL into 7 figures!!! We're all fucked now! Ford focus will be $250,000 soooon!

If you posted implying that there are no cars at that price, I'd point out there were. You failed the reading comprehension there. I agree few appliaces are that expensive.

And while the point was exagerated IMO, it wasn't as exaggerated as you claim, it's not analogous to a seven-figure car. I'm pretty sure the percentage of washer buyers who pay four figures is a lot higher than the percentage of car buyers who pay seven. The point was that the higher end of the range has hit that level; it's more like saying that the luxury car market has gone from around $60-$90K to $200K. It doesn't mean that's the average car, but it has some relevance to the auto market.

Again, I think the washer example wasn't very good for the point being made; I was just correcting the apparent point that there aren't any washers in that price range.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
It makes sense. We are in the end times and the Word of God states it will be a huge force out of the east that will rule the world. Its only a matter of time.

Your facetious 'crying wolf' posts in every thread about any problem in society got old around the 500th thread. We understand you'll pooh-pooh up to a mid-sized nuke war.

Who said I was joking? And did I say it would be soon?

Chill out. Your straight away opposing my comments gets old too. Among other things. For the most part most of these threads ARE crying wolf. You have been reading my posts for several years and if you cant recognize sarcasm by now, youre hopeless. Are you intentionally dense or just clueless?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
It makes sense. We are in the end times and the Word of God states it will be a huge force out of the east that will rule the world. Its only a matter of time.

Your facetious 'crying wolf' posts in every thread about any problem in society got old around the 500th thread. We understand you'll pooh-pooh up to a mid-sized nuke war.

Who said I was joking? And did I say it would be soon?

Chill out. Your straight away opposing my comments gets old too. Among other things. For the most part most of these threads ARE crying wolf. You have been reading my posts for several years and if you cant recognize sarcasm by now, youre hopeless. Are you intentionally dense or just clueless?

Unable to make a point, you resort to name-calling? I waste my time posting to you, and will probably stop doing so.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
The problem with China's high-tech aspirations is that they can't seem to escape their low-cost industrial roots. Everything they make has one appealing factor, it's cheap. They can't (or won't) compete on quality, they compete on big talk and cheap products. Chinese companies have masted the art of vaporware in a way that must make American companies jealous. Everything they announce is some world changing device that's going to be light years beyond the competition, and in the end it's a bunch of junk wrapped up with duct tape.

That's not to say that they won't be the next Japan of high-tech, but the day that happens is not tomorrow or for a fairly long time. China wants to be a world power in every area, and I have no problem with that at all...but right now they mostly just talk a big game.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
The problem with China's high-tech aspirations is that they can't seem to escape their low-cost industrial roots. Everything they make has one appealing factor, it's cheap. They can't (or won't) compete on quality, they compete on big talk and cheap products. Chinese companies have masted the art of vaporware in a way that must make American companies jealous. Everything they announce is some world changing device that's going to be light years beyond the competition, and in the end it's a bunch of junk wrapped up with duct tape.

That's not to say that they won't be the next Japan of high-tech, but the day that happens is not tomorrow or for a fairly long time. China wants to be a world power in every area, and I have no problem with that at all...but right now they mostly just talk a big game.

/agree good point
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
It makes sense. We are in the end times and the Word of God states it will be a huge force out of the east that will rule the world. Its only a matter of time.

Your facetious 'crying wolf' posts in every thread about any problem in society got old around the 500th thread. We understand you'll pooh-pooh up to a mid-sized nuke war.

Who said I was joking? And did I say it would be soon?

Chill out. Your straight away opposing my comments gets old too. Among other things. For the most part most of these threads ARE crying wolf. You have been reading my posts for several years and if you cant recognize sarcasm by now, youre hopeless. Are you intentionally dense or just clueless?

Unable to make a point, you resort to name-calling? I waste my time posting to you, and will probably stop doing so.

I made my point. Again, you fail to read what I wrote. Here's readers digest:

*Who said I was joking? And did I say it would be soon?
*you cant recognize sarcasm
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,591
2
71
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Rainsford
The problem with China's high-tech aspirations is that they can't seem to escape their low-cost industrial roots. Everything they make has one appealing factor, it's cheap. They can't (or won't) compete on quality, they compete on big talk and cheap products. Chinese companies have masted the art of vaporware in a way that must make American companies jealous. Everything they announce is some world changing device that's going to be light years beyond the competition, and in the end it's a bunch of junk wrapped up with duct tape.

That's not to say that they won't be the next Japan of high-tech, but the day that happens is not tomorrow or for a fairly long time. China wants to be a world power in every area, and I have no problem with that at all...but right now they mostly just talk a big game.

/agree good point

It's a cultural thang to be sure. The Nipponse are generally fastidious and take pride in quality. Les Chinois, on the contrary, not so much. One might argue the same aboot Germans vis-a-vis ze French. Americans still seem to have an edge in innovation though.


 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: StormRider
Originally posted by: Kuragami
I have zero sympathy for companies who produce items overseas.

Sure prices for some things like sneakers are lower, and also fall apart sooner, but a lot of traditional big ticket items have steadily skyrocketed over the years. Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past. Overall I don't see the benefit being past onto the consumer. Quality, safety has suffered immensely so that you can buy a toxic ball point pen for 99 cents.

I wonder how much worse it will get from here on out.

What the heck are you talking about? I see 19 Washers at Best Buy selling for under $500 -- about 5 of them are selling for around $350.

For example

OH SHIT! Cars are WELL into 7 figures!!! We're all fucked now! Ford focus will be $250,000 soooon!

If you posted implying that there are no cars at that price, I'd point out there were. You failed the reading comprehension there. I agree few appliaces are that expensive.

And while the point was exagerated IMO, it wasn't as exaggerated as you claim, it's not analogous to a seven-figure car. I'm pretty sure the percentage of washer buyers who pay four figures is a lot higher than the percentage of car buyers who pay seven. The point was that the higher end of the range has hit that level; it's more like saying that the luxury car market has gone from around $60-$90K to $200K. It doesn't mean that's the average car, but it has some relevance to the auto market.

Again, I think the washer example wasn't very good for the point being made; I was just correcting the apparent point that there aren't any washers in that price range.

Ummm, I never implied that there aren't any washers in that price range. I merely stated that there are over 19 washers at Best Buy well under the 4-digit territory.

I can't remember the exact price my parents paid for their washer in the past, but I think the price has stayed about the same for a basic washer.

The OP said that "Items like washing machines and couches are climbing into 4 digit territory. That's a heck of a trend considering they cost 10-20 times less years past." which made me think he was implying that the price of washing machine are 10-20 times more now than in the past which is not true. You can easily find a washer now in the same price range as in the past.