China's lastest engineering colossus (INSANE + Hardcore!!)

Bluga

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Nov 28, 2000
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Project Name: China North-South River Diversion (Three massive 1000 kilometer water channels connecting Yangtze and Yellow river )

Project Start Date: The end of 2002

Expected Finish Date: 2050

Expected Cost: $60 billion USD

Description:The river diversion mega-project is the largest ever planned.


Quotes from NY Times:

link

"Even for the nation that built the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, the scale of construction is extraordinary."

"The Three Gorges Dam, designed to tame the mighty Yangtze river and generate the power of 18 ordinary nuclear power plants, was for years considered the world's most expensive project, with a price tag of $30 billion. It has now been eclipsed by China's latest engineering colossus, a $60 billion system of channels and pump stations to divert water from the Yangtze in the central part of the country to the Yellow River in the north. In late December, Chinese officials broke ground on the first phase of the project, which they say will alleviate desertification and drought."


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New Scientist Article


A hugely ambitious, multi-billion dollar river diversion plan has been given the go-ahead by the Chinese government.

The 50-year project involves creating three channels to connect the Yangtze river with the Hai, Huai and Yellow rivers further north. These channels will each be over 1000 kilometres long and designed to carry about 48 billion cubic metres of water every year to drought-stricken northern regions. This is the same amount as the entire current outflow from the Yellow river.

The first phase of work on the eastern and middle channels will cost about $19 billion, take five to 10 years, and begin by the end of 2002. "After nearly half a century of study and planning, we can now start putting the project that the late Chairman Mao Zedong envisioned into reality step by step," said water resources vice-minister Zhang Jiyao in China Daily.

The ultimate cost of the river diversion China Daily.

In April, the government said the water crisis in northern cities, including Beijing, was the worst since communist rule bemega-project - the largest ever planned - is expected to exceed that of the controversial $24 billion Three Gorges Dam. The dam is being constructed on the Yangtze to the west of the proposed channels and will produce hydroelectric power and reduce flooding.

Crossing continents
The Chinese government argues that the river diversion project is badly needed. Water shortages affect two-thirds of China's 600 major cities, costing $14.5 billion each year, according to gan in 1949. An estimated 33 million people were affected.

These northern areas have one third of China's population, gross national product, farmland and grain output. "The south to north water diversion project is a mega-project that is strategically aimed at realising the optimal allocation of water resources," Zhang said.

Critics have argued that simpler ways to address water problems, such as water-saving agricultural techniques, should be introduced instead. Many thousands of people are also likely to be forced from their homes, adding to the hundreds of thousands displaced to make way for the Three Gorges Dam.

Major river diversion projects are frequently proposed, but rarely implemented. For example, a blueprint for diverting Siberian rivers to Central Asian states such as Uzbekistan was formed in the 1980s, but continues to be debated. And recent proposals to divert Australian rivers prompted fears that salinity changes in their estuaries would damage fisheries.
 

eakers

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
12,169
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its an environmental disaster.

they are going to loose so much :(

edit: for clarity: i saw a movie on the three gorges dam and all the craziness thats going to happen when they flood everything with it. i can only imagine what this might do.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
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1 mile long dam, to supply the region with electricty as well as control flooding. good thing they arent going the nuclear way.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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The Soviet Union tried something similar to this back in the 50's or 60's and gave up. Created a BIG mess. I can't remember what the project was named, but the U.N. did some studies back then and determined that if the Soviets had been successful in diverting the river it would have changed weather patterns all across the Pacific and possible even the Western United States. Here's an idea for the Chinese, and I suppose the people starving in Africa.....MOVE TO WHERE THE WATER IS!!!
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
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50 years? wow thats the communist for ya, our unions would drag it out to a 100 year project. ;)
 

IamDavid

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
5,888
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Insanity. :( Where are the environmentalist? They would rather protest here in the US when we endanger a fruit fly. :(
 

HamSupLo

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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there's no environmentalists in china. what the gov't saids goes. I wonder whose bastard project this is...Li Peng?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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i guess its sorta similar to the canal system of the US but a lot lot bigger
 

pkomma

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Jun 27, 2001
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The country is run by engineers (literally, I believe most of the high up folks were trained as engineers). Kinda makes sense that when they get to the highest positions of power they choose to build build build. Anybody got some good links about how govt finances work in China? Like about budgets/tax revenues? I'd be interested in finding out how they are paying for all of this. I know they have many many huge infrastructure projects going on right now (and into the future). I think one motivation for the government is to give work to all the unemployed people... but they gotta foot the bill somehow.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
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Originally posted by: Citrix
50 years? wow thats the communist for ya, our unions would drag it out to a 100 year project. ;)

Actually, Communist projects take FOREVER. Why work? You get paid anyways. If you get fired, you get another job given to you.

One of my teachers said he went to the USSR in two trips ~5 years apart and the same crew was building the same apartment building (definitely NOT a 5 year project this one).
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
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Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: Citrix
50 years? wow thats the communist for ya, our unions would drag it out to a 100 year project. ;)

Actually, Communist projects take FOREVER. Why work? You get paid anyways. If you get fired, you get another job given to you.

how true. jobs from government owned businesses in china are called "iron rice bowls" for a reason. though i dont thinkthere are many of thos enow

but if u were talking about ideal communism..
 

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
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China already built a Grand Canal from north to south 800 years ago (that's like LA to Chicago).
 

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
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Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: Citrix
50 years? wow thats the communist for ya, our unions would drag it out to a 100 year project. ;)

Actually, Communist projects take FOREVER. Why work? You get paid anyways. If you get fired, you get another job given to you.

One of my teachers said he went to the USSR in two trips ~5 years apart and the same crew was building the same apartment building (definitely NOT a 5 year project this one).

China is very different from communist now. Their economy is pure capitalism. They run cities like corporations.

For example the mayor of a city is given two year term, if he can't bring the economy up, he is outta there. It's extremely efficient.

A building that takes four year to build in the States would only take 2 years in China to complete! Heck they completed a maglev line in one year!
 

Centaur6

Banned
Dec 23, 2002
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Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: Citrix
50 years? wow thats the communist for ya, our unions would drag it out to a 100 year project. ;)

Actually, Communist projects take FOREVER. Why work? You get paid anyways. If you get fired, you get another job given to you.

One of my teachers said he went to the USSR in two trips ~5 years apart and the same crew was building the same apartment building (definitely NOT a 5 year project this one).
First, that's not how communism was implemented in the USSR. Second, the time it took them to build structures had nothing to do with communism. In fact, it still takes them at least 5 years to build an apartment building.
 

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
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pkomma:


NY Times
January 13, 2003
China Gambles on Big Projects for Its Stability
By JOSEPH KAHN


CHONGQING, China ?The engineers who run China have decided that this congested southwestern city, cupped by the Zhongliang Mountains and divided by flood-prone rivers, needs a complete makeover.

Construction crews have carved a small canyon in the center of town, where they are burrowing through mountains to create 600 miles of superhighways, four new railway lines, an urban light rail system and a new airport. Chinese officials are also promising parks, drinkable tap water and riverside promenades for the city's 30 million residents.

The cost of remaking Chongqing into the heartland's metropolis, most of it shouldered by the government and state-owned banks, is estimated at $200 billion over the next decade, a bit more than the United States Congress spent, in adjusted dollars, to build the American interstate highway system in the 1950's.

China's top leaders, many of them trained in the mechanical sciences, are not just making mountain cities into transportation hubs. They also want to pump 48 billion cubic meters of water each year from south to north, transport natural gas from Central Asia to China's southeast coast, and construct the world's largest dam, longest bridge, fastest train and highest railroad.

Even more than modernizing its infrastructure or, as some critics see it, erecting monuments to its emerging might, China is desperate to keep the economy growing quickly. Over the past few years, it has reached deep into the national treasury to finance projects that it hopes will create jobs and stimulate enough growth to ensure social stability and to keep the Communist Party in power.

As a new generation of leaders takes control, China is using heavy government investment to escape the worldwide slowdown and maintain growth above the 7 percent level that the government deems crucial to avoiding mass unemployment and urban unrest.

The plan has worked, so far. China last year reported defiantly robust growth of 8 percent, attributed to surging exports and a nearly 25 percent increase in state-directed investment.

But the strategy is risky. The once fiscally prudent central government is now running hefty budget deficits. State banks, told a few years ago to clean up bad loans and begin acting like capitalist lenders, are pumping tens of billions of dollars into officially sponsored projects that have sometimes failed to produce real returns.

The Communist Party has pledged to support private companies and allow the market to flourish. Financially, though, the authorities are monopolizing the country's private savings for a building boom that dwarfs the New Deal and the Marshall Plan.

"The country has relied very heavily on government investment to lead the economy," said Shen Lishen, a top economist at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. "It really should begin to fade out, not become part of the long-term economic plan."

Beijing opened its coffers to stimulate growth beginning in 1998, when it feared that the financial contagion spreading around Asia would infect China. Instead of fading out, the spending is getting more ambitious.

The government, state banks and companies and foreign investors collectively spent $200 billion in the first 11 months of last year on basic infrastructure projects, one quarter more than they spent in 2001, according to the State Statistics Bureau. That represents about 15 percent of China's gross domestic product, or about the proportion that the United States spends on health care.

Even for the nation that built the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, the scale of construction is extraordinary.

Not long ago Beijing had China's only subway. Now Shanghai, Guangzhou and Tianjin have tunneled under heavily populated residential districts to install subway systems. Seven other cities have begun construction on their own subways.

By 2005, China plans to add 8,500 miles of railroad, half of that to places that now have no rail service. Shanghai just opened the world's first magnetic levitation train that zips to its new airport at up to 270 miles per hour, faster than any other commercial train.

Railroad officials are completing plans for a $22 billion high-speed track from Beijing to Shanghai. Meanwhile, workers carrying oxygen tanks are pounding spikes for the 670-mile-long Qinghai-Tibet railroad, which will operate at elevations of up to 16,600 feet on its way to Lhasa, Tibet's capital.

The Three Gorges Dam, designed to tame the mighty Yangtze river and generate the power of 18 ordinary nuclear power plants, was for years considered the world's most expensive project, with a price tag of $30 billion. It has now been eclipsed by China's latest engineering colossus, a $60 billion system of channels and pump stations to divert water from the Yangtze in the central part of the country to the Yellow River in the north. In late December, Chinese officials broke ground on the first phase of the project, which they say will alleviate desertification and drought.

Like many large cities, Chongqing is now following what officials refer to as the "Shanghai model." That refers to the heavy financial support the central government gave Shanghai over the past eight years, after two former city leaders, Jiang Zemin and Zhu Rongji, became China's top bosses.

Shanghai created a new financial center in Pudong, its eastern section. It tore apart former colonial districts to install a modern transportation network. While some of the uncounted billions of dollars invested almost certainly went to waste, Shanghai has also become an Asian center of commerce and finance.

Huang Qifan, a former top Shanghai official, is now the executive vice mayor of Chongqing. He said the once remote city on the upper reaches of the Yangtze, which served as a redoubt for China's Nationalist government when it fled the Japanese advance during World War II, would be the beachhead to develop China's west. Chongqing lobbied hard for that role, partly as a political payoff for supporting the Three Gorges Dam, which will inundate riverside towns in the area.

"We have more infrastructure work going on here than anyplace else in China," Mr. Huang said. "When I say $200 billion a year, this is not some abstract number. It is really happening."

Mr. Huang spent most of a two-hour interview citing statistics to back up his point. He ticked off the highways (8), the ring roads (2), the bridges (8), the rail lines (4) and the sewage and trash facilities (4) among the projects that he said would turn Chongqing into a commercial gateway.

Like Chongqing, the capital city of Beijing is also pressing the central government to support a huge urban improvement plan, including subway lines, light rail, highways and even a giant opera house to dress up the city for the 2008 Olympics. Beijing estimates the cost at $34 billion, far more than potential revenue from the Olympics alone could justify.

Some economists argue that such investments are smart bets on the future. Only a small percentage of the urban population earns middle-class wages, and China cannot rely on consumer spending to spur growth the way most industrialized nations can.

China also needs to expand faster than wealthy countries to generate jobs for workers laid off by state-run factories and for farmers flocking to cities to seek something better than subsistence income.

"The government is sucking up savings and investing in the future," said Andy Xie, a regional economist for Morgan Stanley. "The financial returns on these kinds of investments are low. But the payoff for the economy is high."

Mr. Xie argues that China's work force is becoming significantly more efficient. He estimates that China is experiencing productivity growth of 4 percent a year. An eight-lane highway between two crowded cities greatly enhances productivity when it replaces a two-lane road. Cellphones have revolutionized communications in a place where fixed-line phones were scarce.

Fred Hu, chief China economist for Goldman Sachs, agrees. He argues that as China suffers through a period of falling prices and low consumer spending, Beijing is right to inject money into the economy.

"This is China's New Deal," Mr. Hu said. "Every problem is easier to solve when growth is faster."

Yet the risks are also mounting, in part because China is trying to outrun or perhaps run away from its inherited burden of socialist inefficiency. Banks still give loans to bankrupt factories to prevent labor unrest. Now, the government has taken to running a budget deficit of about 3 percent of economic output.

CLSA Emerging Markets, a Hong Kong-based brokerage firm, estimates that when official debt is added to bad loans at state banks and the unfinanced pensions of state workers, China's debt rises as high as 140 percent of economic output. That is as much as the burden now crippling Japan's economy.

"There is nothing wrong with investing in the future, but the question is whether they are doing enough to change the whole economic system," said Andy Rothman, China economist for CLSA.

Even within China's government, opposition has emerged. Some economists say privately they worry that the latest construction boom has become a binge of the sort that has repeatedly proved hazardous to China's health since the Great Leap Forward of the late 1950's.

A State Statistics Bureau report in August bemoaned copy-cat projects that waste state funds. The report cited one unidentified Chinese province that had 800 industrial parks under way at the same time, most of them unneeded. The bureau also said a rush to build airports had led to a glut, with 127 or the nation's 143 airports running losses.

But China is not tightening its belt. Like the departing leadership, China's new leaders, led by the new Communist Party general secretary, Hu Jintao, are under pressure to keep priming the economy.

During the leadership transition last fall, half a dozen cities publicized development plans with price tags in the billions. City leaders say they are focused on the future.

"It's a little crazy to be talking about adding so much capacity today," said Mr. Huang of Chongqing, acknowledging the unusual scope of his city's investment plans. "But in 20 years you will see what happens to this place and it will all make sense."

 

HamSupLo

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I'm guessing that the financing is coming from foreign investment (japan) and loans from places like the IMF/World Bank.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
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Originally posted by: shinerburke
The Soviet Union tried something similar to this back in the 50's or 60's and gave up. Created a BIG mess. I can't remember what the project was named, but the U.N. did some studies back then and determined that if the Soviets had been successful in diverting the river it would have changed weather patterns all across the Pacific and possible even the Western United States. Here's an idea for the Chinese, and I suppose the people starving in Africa.....MOVE TO WHERE THE WATER IS!!!

That's the problem. Their water supplies can only supply water to about 650 million people and still be able to recharge every year. They are running out of freshwater and this project isn't going to help them that much. What they need to do is figure out how co-exist with aquifers instead of sucking them dry.
 

Darein

Platinum Member
Nov 14, 2000
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Where is this huge cost coming from? I don't imagine they have to pay the people working on it much, at least compared to a country in Europe/America. Maybe just massive amounts of labor?
 

BSRaider

Junior Member
Jan 15, 2003
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maybe they should just have every person in china pay 60 bucks then that 60 billion dollar charge will be gone? with that many people large projects like that should be easy!
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
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60 bucks is a lot to them.

you know, theres places there in large cities (xi'an) where the yearly family income is $200 usd!
 

Rastus

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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There are American engineering companies involved. I have a friend who is a PhD in hydraulics (water flow type) who is going over there to work on this project.