China's 5th generation fighter J-20A in service

[Genx87]

Smarter than spending the money developing it yourself if it nets you the same results... I'm not on their side or rooting for them, just saying...

It doesnt net the same results. Look at the Soviet SST.

 

[Genx87]

after researching further, that link I provided is a bit misleading...the Chinese version won't be ready until 2025 apparently but they are making a clone of the B2...

35 years behind us.

 

[Genx87]

there was a pretty good article, can't remember written by whom, that was basically this. china doesn't need to win an all out war, nor does it want an all out war where it would very likely lose to a better equipped military force. it just needs to keep the US out of the south china sea so it can grow. even the threat of taking down a carrier is enough.

of course, US anti missile defenses aren't staying static either, but i doubt anyone wants to find out any time soon whether existing anti-missile tactics are sufficient.

It isnt like we don't have massive aircraft carriers(islands) we can project force into the area without risking a carrier. In an all out war we would wither down their inferior tech and then bomb their coastal cities inflicting massive damage. We would not invade but it would decimate their ability to project power for years. I would expect their navy would be at the bottom of the sea as well.

 

[urvile]

@BudAshes
Yes. I am sure the chinese haven't thought of that. The important thing to remember is the US is superior in every way and always will be. Hell yeah.

 

[Genx87]

Oh I am sure we could today but I have my doubts about the relatively near future. Like I keep saying, we'd be playing in their sandbox not the other way around and their entire strategy seems to be denying us access to their sandbox. They can field 80, if not more, of these fast missile ships right now and if even half of them get their missiles off, and it would be a hell of a thing for us to take 40 vessels out of the fight before they can fire, that is 160 anti-ship missiles headed for our supercarrier. No way in hell our defenses can handle that many missiles and they can easily pump more of those boats out. We can't easily replace supercarriers.

Keep in mind, they don't actually have to do any of these things. They only have to make the risk greater than the reward and it looks like they are on a path to do just that.

You realize for these fast missile boats they either need a helicopter coordinating the attack(radar) or be within range for radar to find the fleet. Neither is going to happen in a war scenario. Meanwhile we would find these boats and pick them off one by one.

 

[urvile]

It isnt like we don't have massive aircraft carriers(islands) we can project force into the area without risking a carrier. In an all out war we would wither down their inferior tech and then bomb their coastal cities inflicting massive damage. We would not invade but it would decimate their ability to project power for years. I would expect their navy would be at the bottom of the sea as well.

Aircraft have a limited range right? In a confined space aircraft carriers are also easy targets.

 

[Fenixgoon]

It isnt like we don't have massive aircraft carriers(islands) we can project force into the area without risking a carrier. In an all out war we would wither down their inferior tech and then bomb their coastal cities inflicting massive damage. We would not invade but it would decimate their ability to project power for years. I would expect their navy would be at the bottom of the sea as well.

Did you miss the part about the ASBMs? The whole point of their existence is to make force projection a risky business by creating a legitimate threat to a carrier. Carrier-based aircraft don't have infinite ranges, so you gotta park a carrier somewhere nearby the target zone.

 

[Genx87]

Aircraft have a limited range right? In a confined space aircraft carriers are also easy targets.

Every plane we have can reach china from Japan and Guam. And if it got ugly Taiwan. Carriers are not easy targets unless their escort fleet leaves them. They have an entire array of weapons to employ for fleet defense from the carrier coupled with their escort fleets ability to protect.

 

[Genx87]

Did you miss the part about the ASBMs? The whole point of their existence is to make force projection a risky business by creating a legitimate threat to a carrier. Carrier-based aircraft don't have infinite ranges, so you gotta park a carrier somewhere nearby the target zone.

How will they fire one of these without radar finding the fleet?

 

[urvile]

How will they fire one of these without radar finding the fleet?

Yeah whatever dude. I am far to hung over to play tom clancy fantasy war games with you,

 

[Genx87]

Yeah whatever dude. I am far to hung over to play tom clancy fantasy war games with you,

Heh it is a legitimate question

Radar is forced to deal with line of site. China would need to have aircraft or helicopters in the air to gain line of site relaying radar information on the fleet in real time for these to work. One of the jobs of the carrier is to take these assets out so they cant provide radar information on the fleet. And as soon as the carrier lacks this capability it is high tailing it out of the war zone.

 

[Darwin333]

It isnt like we don't have massive aircraft carriers(islands) we can project force into the area without risking a carrier. In an all out war we would wither down their inferior tech and then bomb their coastal cities inflicting massive damage. We would not invade but it would decimate their ability to project power for years. I would expect their navy would be at the bottom of the sea as well.

How do you defend a carrier against 80 cheap but very fast missile boats that can fire 8 anti-ship missiles each? Not to mention if our planes are in range of them theirs are in range of our carrier so that's even more threats to deal with simultaneously. I believe they even have land based anti ship missiles now too, especially now that they have militarized the manmade islands they plopped into the SCS.

 

[Genx87]

How do you defend a carrier against 80 cheap but very fast missile boats that can fire 8 anti-ship missiles each? Not to mention if our planes are in range of them theirs are in range of our carrier so that's even more threats to deal with simultaneously. I believe they even have land based anti ship missiles now too, especially now that they have militarized the manmade islands they plopped into the SCS.

How much radar range do you believe these boats have? You think they are picking up the fleet at 1000km? I bet they need to be at 150km or less unless they have air support. Which they wont have.

Those boats are coastal defense assets. Using coastal radar. A fleet will not get that close.

 

[Darwin333]

How much radar range do you believe these boats have? You think they are picking up the fleet at 1000km? I bet they need to be at 150km or less unless they have air support. Which they wont have.

Those boats are coastal defense assets. Using coastal radar. A fleet will not get that close.

I'd imagine that is one of the big reasons that they are building artificial islands in the SCS. I'm not exactly sure how their military radar interlinks but assuming this plane is decently stealthy couldn't it point the missiles until their own guidance took over? Hell a bunch of cheap ass drones should be able to do the job or am I mistaken?

I'm not an expert on military stuff so honest questions.

 

[John Connor]

LOL Stop trying to make China happen... it won't. The only threat we face with China is an all out nuclear war.

 

[Red Squirrel]

The thought of China building something like this is kind of scary. I wonder if it's made of chinesium, it's just going to randomly shatter in pieces mid air or something lol.

 

[John Connor]

It was probably made by 12 year old slaves.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

Plenty of political outsiders have been president before.

List?

 

[Darwin333]

List?

Grant, Hoover, and Eisenhower off the top of my head, I'm sure there are at least a few more.

 

[Fenixgoon]

How will they fire one of these without radar finding the fleet?

you've never heard of OTH radar? or satellites? there are many ways to get "line of sight" (of course having the data linking said missile and the observer is another story).

 

[rommelrommel]

I have read and it makes a ton of sense that dogfighting, at least the way the majority of people think about it, is irrelevant in this day of advanced missiles. Most encounters will be beyond visible range so in essence all modern "fighter jets" are high-speed missile trucks.

Out of curiosity, why do you say that it can barely keep itself in the air?

All modern fighters are not missile trucks. Sure, if you can dump lots of BVR missiles off a crap fighter but that’s an expensive and relatively poor strategy. Dogfighting has evolved and may be less likely but still isn’t deal. Maneuvering is still very important.

I say it can barely keep itself in the sky because when it was shown at a Chinese air show it had to use afterburner after maneuvering because it had bled so much energy.

 

[drinkmorejava]

How do you defend a carrier against 80 cheap but very fast missile boats that can fire 8 anti-ship missiles each? Not to mention if our planes are in range of them theirs are in range of our carrier so that's even more threats to deal with simultaneously. I believe they even have land based anti ship missiles now too, especially now that they have militarized the manmade islands they plopped into the SCS.

Assuming a fleet would even operate close enough to land for missile boats to be an issue. Potentially this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyUh_xSjvXQ