China versus Japan: The Fishing Boat

[Schadenfroh]

China and Russia have gone to war and I believe they both had nukes at the time (although I could be wrong).

Not a full scale war, but they had border conflicts. The Soviet Union was tempted to invade China after China attacked their ally Vietnam, but the main deterrent for that would have been the massive amount of troops that the Chinese stationed on the Sino-Soviet border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

On March 2, 1969, a group of Chinese troops ambushed Soviet border guards on Zhenbao Island. The Soviets suffered 58 dead, including a senior colonel, and 94 wounded. They retaliated on March 15 by bombarding Chinese troop concentrations on the Chinese bank of the Ussuri and by storming Zhenbao Island.
Further border clashes occurred in August 1969, this time along the western section of the Sino-Soviet border in Xinjiang. The Chinese suffered additional casualties in this engagement. Heightened tensions raised the prospect of a nuclear war between China and the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhenbao_Island

It was the subject of a territorial dispute between the Soviet Union and the PRC. Battles were fought over Zhenbao Island by the Soviet Union and the PRC, with a considerable loss of life, during the Sino-Soviet border conflict of March 1969. The conflict over Zhenbao raised concerns that it could ignite another World War until an initial resolution of the conflict in November, 1969.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War#Sino.E2.80.93Soviet_split

China also achieved another strategic objective of demonstrating to its Cold War foe, the Soviet Union, that they were unable to protect their Vietnamese ally. As many as 1.5 million Chinese troops were stationed along China's borders with the USSR and were prepared for a full-scale war against the USSR.

 

[al981]

Where did I state there would be an all-out war? I have repeatedly stated that the United States would not be afraid to use nuclear weapons if it had to. You seem to think we would be "afraid" to engage in such a war. lol, not all wars are existential. You have this false belief that, just because a nation has nukes, we would be afraid of attacking them. This is false and stupid. China and Russia have gone to war and I believe they both had nukes at the time (although I could be wrong).

You seem to think that all wars are existential. They aren't. They are usually to prove a point. Russia's war with China was such an example. Another would be China and India.

using nukes is considered an all out war. the moment the united states uses nukes on a nuclear power, retaliation will occur. the us has never gambled on its own destruction, and never will. neither will china. but keep up your ridiculous claim that the us will use nukes on another superpower LOL.

 

[Narmer]

using nukes is considered an all out war. the moment the united states uses nukes on a nuclear power, retaliation will occur. the us has never gambled on its own destruction, and never will. neither will china. but keep up your ridiculous claim that the us will use nukes on another superpower LOL.

The US has never gambled on its own destruction? Do you know how many wars we've fought? Do you know what was at stake? Do you know what our leaders knew at the time? I hope you're not just talking out of your ass and are making intelligent statements because, since its inception, the US has taken major gambles and came out ahead (and we've also lost some).

You sound like someone who makes bombastic statements based on anecdotal evidence and confidence rather than actual intelligence. I suggest you STFU about US military history rather than saying "The US has never...lol"; "The US will never...lol".

 

[al981]

The US has never gambled on its own destruction? Do you know how many wars we've fought? Do you know what was at stake? Do you know what our leaders knew at the time? I hope you're not just talking out of your ass and are making intelligent statements because, since its inception, the US has taken major gambles and came out ahead (and we've also lost some).

You sound like someone who makes bombastic statements based on anecdotal evidence and confidence rather than actual intelligence. I suggest you STFU about US military history rather than saying "The US has never...lol"; "The US will never...lol".

again, since this simple fact escapes you: the us has never and will never gamble its destruction by launching nukes against another superpower that has nukes. nor will it dare attack / invade a superpower that has nukes. doing so is gambling that your skies will be filled with incoming warheads and the subsequent extinction of your country. get it, kid?

so again, LOL at your ridiculous claim that the us wouldn't be afraid to use nukes against china.

 

[Narmer]

again, since this simple fact escapes you: the us has never and will never gamble its destruction by launching nukes against another superpower that has nukes. nor will it dare attack / invade a superpower that has nukes. doing so is gambling that your skies will be filled with incoming warheads and the subsequent extinction of your country. get it, kid?

so again, LOL at your ridiculous claim that the us wouldn't be afraid to use nukes against china.

You must be dumb as a rock then. There have been numerous where we were ready to go to nuclear war against the Soviet Union. Cuban Missile Crisis; taking China's side in their border flap with the Soviet Union; and siding with Israel in her wars against the Arabs in the early 1970s when we went to Defcon 2 after the Soviets threatened to aid the Arabs.

So, please STFU because your bombastic statements are not corroborated with the facts. We are ready, willing, and able to fight any war anywhere at anytime against anyone, nuke or no nuke. We are not afraid. Also, Communist China's PLA is mainly geared towards domestic security. They may have the numbers but they are not trained to fight a first-world military like that of the US.

 

[Narmer]

I would also like to say one other thing: When you've fought as many wars as the United States has, the training you get is absolutely invaluable. Look at us. Look at Israel. You do not get that type of advantage with numbers, threats, or whatever. China would not stand a chance against us because, as I've said before, their western half would collapse due to all the non-Han ethnic Hans revolting. That would give us a good forward base to operate from. The 1 billion+ Hans on the coast, if they don't revolt, would be like killing fish in a barrel with dynamite.

 

[al981]

You must be dumb as a rock then. There have been numerous where we were ready to go to nuclear war against the Soviet Union. Cuban Missile Crisis; taking China's side in their border flap with the Soviet Union; and siding with Israel in her wars against the Arabs in the early 1970s when we went to Defcon 2 after the Soviets threatened to aid the Arabs.

So, please STFU because your bombastic statements are not corroborated with the facts. We are ready, willing, and able to fight any war anywhere at anytime against anyone, nuke or no nuke. We are not afraid. Also, Communist China's PLA is mainly geared towards domestic security. They may have the numbers but they are not trained to fight a first-world military like that of the US.

LoL, yet america nor russia ever touched each other, because guess what? neither country wanted to be obliterated. both understood the basic fact that if anyone invaded each other or launched an assault, both would be annihilated in a matter of hours. again, the united states will never touch another superpower, and only invade countries with militaries stuck in the 70's for their own personal gain. keep up your ridiculous bullshit claim and hardon for china, kid. welcome to the real world / realism. go take a course on it and learn about mutually assured destruction, aka common sense.

again, america won't do shit against another superpower with nukes. ever.

 

[Pocatello]

I would also like to say one other thing: When you've fought as many wars as the United States has, the training you get is absolutely invaluable. Look at us. Look at Israel. You do not get that type of advantage with numbers, threats, or whatever. China would not stand a chance against us because, as I've said before, their western half would collapse due to all the non-Han ethnic Hans revolting. That would give us a good forward base to operate from. The 1 billion+ Hans on the coast, if they don't revolt, would be like killing fish in a barrel with dynamite.

You and Dick Cheney should get together to plan an invasion of China.

 

[al981]

I would also like to say one other thing: When you've fought as many wars as the United States has, the training you get is absolutely invaluable. Look at us. Look at Israel. You do not get that type of advantage with numbers, threats, or whatever. China would not stand a chance against us because, as I've said before, their western half would collapse due to all the non-Han ethnic Hans revolting. That would give us a good forward base to operate from. The 1 billion+ Hans on the coast, if they don't revolt, would be like killing fish in a barrel with dynamite.

LOL! if you say so, chicken little. maybe worry about securing a dead country such as iraq or afghanistan first...

oh wait, you're pulling out already... but keeping those precious oil pipelines secure in the meantime! 😉

 

[Narmer]

LoL, yet america nor russia ever touched each other, because guess what? neither country wanted to be obliterated. both understood the basic fact that if anyone invaded each other or launched an assault, both would be annihilated in a matter of hours. again, the united states will never touch another superpower, and only invade countries with militaries stuck in the 70's for their own personal gain. keep up your ridiculous bullshit claim and hardon for china, kid. welcome to the real world / realism. go take a course on it and learn about mutually assured destruction, aka common sense.

again, america won't do shit against another superpower with nukes. ever.

We are ready. We certainly have the resolve and did not back down. You keep running your mouth, saying things like "the United States will never...lol" and I've proven to you that we would if taken to that point. We nuked Japan and we would have no problem nuking China, same difference. You must be of the view that Americans are weak or soft or whatever. Believe me, you push us and we'll knock the coolie from your head; kick the rice bowl and chopstick out of your hand, and do to you what we've done to your neighbors in Afghanistan and Japan.

 

[Narmer]

LOL! if you say so, chicken little. maybe worry about securing a dead country such as iraq or afghanistan first...

oh wait, you're pulling out already... but keeping those precious oil pipelines secure in the meantime! 😉

Yes, we will fuck up any country that fucks with our money.

 

[al981]

We are ready. We certainly have the resolve and did not back down. You keep running your mouth, saying things like "the United States will never...lol" and I've proven to you that we would if taken to that point. We nuked Japan and we would have no problem nuking China, same difference. You must be of the view that Americans are weak or soft or whatever. Believe me, you push us and we'll knock the coolie from your head; kick the rice bowl and chopstick out of your hand, and do to you what we've done to your neighbors in Afghanistan and Japan.

all superpowers with nukes have resolve and don't back down. it's the name of the game, kid. again, point stands the usa nor any other superpower will ever launch its nukes against each other. realism. learn it, chicken little.

nukes on japan? try that with any superpower with nukes and half the united states is destroyed in a matter of hours. get the difference? realism. learn it.

 

[al981]

Yes, we will fuck up any country that fucks with our money.

since china pretty much owns you, go do something about it, chicken little!

 

[Narmer]

all superpowers with nukes have resolve and don't back down. it's the name of the game, kid. again, point stands the usa nor any other superpower will ever launch its nukes against each other. realism. learn it, chicken little.

nukes on japan? try that with any superpower with nukes and half the united states is destroyed in a matter of hours. get the difference? realism. learn it.

Not true. The Soviet Union backed down on the three occasions I mentioned. You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

 

[Narmer]

since china pretty much owns you, go do something about it, chicken little!

How do they own us? If I owe a bank $100, that's my problem. If I owe a bank $1,000,000,000,000, that's the bank's problem. China, like Japan, bought US assets to prop down their currencies. It all goes according to plan until it doesn't.

The question is, what will China do about it?

 

[al981]

Not true. The Soviet Union backed down on the three occasions I mentioned. You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

hardly. it's called playing the game and threatening each other without ever launching nukes against another similar power. get that through your head, chicken little.

you remind me of all the idiots who were crying about the chinese olympics a few years ago. all talk, no substance:

 

[Narmer]

hardly. it's called playing the game and threatening each other without ever launching nukes against another similar power. get that through your head, chicken little.

you remind me of all the idiots who were crying about the chinese olympics a few years ago. all talk, no substance:

It's no game, fool. I'm going to take it as you not knowing shit about what you're talking about.

And if that picture implies you will stop selling us crap, then we'll just get it elsewhere. I do.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Well, looks like China has told Japan to stay out, looks like escort vessels might be dispatched:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68I06520100928

China told Japan on Tuesday to stop interfering with Chinese fishery protection vessels operating in seas claimed by both countries that are at the center of a deepening diplomatic row between the two.

This could get interesting.

 

[KMFJD]

Narmer are you enlisting soon?

 

[alphatarget1]

I hope Japan gets pwned. I don't think the US is obligated to "defend" Japan when the islands are uninhabited and it's been in dispute for decades if not more.

If China invades Okinawa, that's another thing.

 

[Narmer]

I hope Japan gets pwned. I don't think the US is obligated to "defend" Japan when the islands are uninhabited and it's been in dispute for decades if not more.

If China invades Okinawa, that's another thing.

Given your hatred of Japan over something that happened before you were even born (funny how people like you dismiss reparations request but just can't let certain things go) this isn't surprising. Those islands, like Okinawa, were under US control until 1971 when it returned Okinawa and other islands to Japan. The United States would be under obligation to defend Japan's territorial integrity. But if it doesn't, it will most likely be kicked out of Japan entirely as they will be a useless ally (and that would totally fuck up US security arrangements in the region unless another nation picks them up, that is unlikely considering how useless they would've become).

Personally, I hope things go up a notch and the Chinese try to press this issue. A Japan with a powerful military (after the current agreement is scrapped should the Chinese invade and America does nothing) would go a long way towards correcting the current imbalance. Who knows, we might get another one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_tomb

 

[alphatarget1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

Meh. Both sides have valid arguments on the sovereignty of the islands and it doesn't really concern me which side gets it. The only reason they are battling out is because of natural resources. It's funny how Japan wants to kick the US military out but still wants to get protected by the US.

Geopolitically speaking, China is flexing its muscles to claim resources. I am no fan of China but is it in US's national interest to interfere with Asia? Hell, we do/did the same thing. I don't like to see smaller countries like Vietnam get bullied into submission, but maybe these things are something that can be resolved diplomatically. Russia thinks it owns the Arctic because of ocean floors, and the Canadians are telling them to piss off.
The US military is overextended the way it is and there is no point to intervene in something that does not promote our national interests.

 

[Svnla]

I hope Japan gets pwned. I don't think the US is obligated to "defend" Japan when the islands are uninhabited and it's been in dispute for decades if not more.

If China invades Okinawa, that's another thing.

Let say Japan gets pwned. Then what? Do you really think China will stop at Japan?

What about other allies such as Taiwain, South Korea, Singapore? Shall we let them get pwned too?

What about smaller/weaker nations that want to be friends or getting closer with the US such as Indonesia, Phillippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, et al? Do you really think China will leave them alone? Or China will get even more greedy and take everything?

Remember what France and England did in 1930's to appease/please certain country that wanted to take on smaller/weaker nations? We all know the results.

 

[alphatarget1]

Let say Japan gets pwned. Then what? Do you really think China will stop at Japan?

What about other allies such as Taiwain, South Korea, Singapore? Shall we let them get pwned too?

What about smaller nations that want to be friends or getting closer with the US such as Indonesia, Phillippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, et al? Do you really think China will leave them alone? Or China will get even more greedy and take everything?

Remember what France and England did in 1930's to appease/please certain country that wanted to take on smaller/weaker nations? We all know the results.

I don't know if China will become aggressive in terms of acquiring land by invading them, I sure hope they don't. I know they have been aggressive in trying to secure resources in Africa (peacefully, but bent to their favor of course).

A better explanation is: I have no answer to your question. We barely got out of Iraq and we are still bogged down in Afghanistan. What do you suggest we do? Send in the 7th Fleet to provoke even more confrontation over a bunch of islands that no one lives on? Can the US *afford* to extend protection to all of the smaller nations you just mentioned?

I'm afraid the world political balance will inevitably get to the point where China can do whatever it wants (to a degree) and nobody can really stop them because other people have too much vested interest in China. Bush invaded Iraq and nobody stopped us either, and I guess that's what superpowers do.

 

[Narmer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

Meh. Both sides have valid arguments on the sovereignty of the islands and it doesn't really concern me which side gets it. The only reason they are battling out is because of natural resources. It's funny how Japan wants to kick the US military out but still wants to get protected by the US.

Geopolitically speaking, China is flexing its muscles to claim resources. I am no fan of China but is it in US's national interest to interfere with Asia? Hell, we do/did the same thing. I don't like to see smaller countries like Vietnam get bullied into submission, but maybe these things are something that can be resolved diplomatically. Russia thinks it owns the Arctic because of ocean floors, and the Canadians are telling them to piss off.
The US military is overextended the way it is and there is no point to intervene in something that does not promote our national interests.

Japan does not want to kick the US out. However, they pay the US $6bn/year for protection. If they kick the US they would have to defend themselves. The Chinese would not want that. They just want a pliant Japan. They do not want a militarized Japan.