China Troubled by US Nuke Offer to India

[Remy XO]

This is all about communism vs democracy. China has been a communist dictatorship for thousands of years. Why do we label a country just on how they run a country? O yeah maybe because our country tought our children to think they are evil, so evil = no nukes. Well in reality, not all countires can run in the same manner. Different people, different cultures, different values. I hate to say it but sometimes too much freedom is not good.

The US is pretty much giving India nukes just for leverage from the incrasing power of china. Ofcourse its going to piss them off, especially when the US is telling them to tell its ally North Korea to step down its nukes. When you guys say countries that are not democratic should not have nukes, I bet you will be saying the same thing about Democratic nations if you grew up there. How do you think those nations percieve us when we elect a president that can't even speak its own language properly for two terms?

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Remy XO
This is all about communism vs democracy. China has been a communist dictatorship for thousands of years. Why do we label a country just on how they run a country? O yeah maybe because our country tought our children to think they are evil, so evil = no nukes. Well in reality, not all countires can run in the same manner. Different people, different cultures, different values. I hate to say it but sometimes too much freedom is not good.

The US is pretty much giving India nukes just for leverage from the incrasing power of china. Ofcourse its going to piss them off, especially when the US is telling them to tell its ally North Korea to step down its nukes. When you guys say countries that are not democratic should not have nukes, I bet you will be saying the same thing about Democratic nations if you grew up there. How do you think those nations percieve us when we elect a president that can't even speak its own language properly for two terms?

Meh I'd take GW over Wen Jiabao anyday. As much as we liberals dislike him in the global scope of things he isn't the WORST leader ever.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Remy XO

The US is pretty much giving India nukes just for leverage from the incrasing power of china. Ofcourse its going to piss them off, especially when the US is telling them to tell its ally North Korea to step down its nukes. When you guys say countries that are not democratic should not have nukes, I bet you will be saying the same thing about Democratic nations if you grew up there. How do you think those nations percieve us when we elect a president that can't even speak its own language properly for two terms?

FYI: India already has nuclear weapons. They derived their existing reactors from the Canadian CANDU design that they licensed.


What the US wants to do is enable our companies to export technology and expertise in the area of light water reactors (which are not really suitable for weapons programs). We have vast experience in this area and much to offer the Indians who will be needing much more energy in the years to come.

 

[Remy XO]

Well my point is that we should'nt threaten a country that we are going to take them over for running a country in a manner we don't like, then blame them for making nukes to defend themselves, then tell its ally China to tell them to stop making nukes all while helping India with their nuclear program.

We tell one country to stop its nuclear program while we help another. Kind've seems like a stab to the back.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: K1052
Where is the condemnation of the Canadians?

IIRC, it was their reactor technology that enabled India to produce materials for weapons.

FYI (Canada's nuclear reactors):

A political issue with the CANDU reactor is the contention that its ability to refuel without shutting down also makes it easier to produce plutonium. All commercial reactor designs produce plutonium as a natural byproduct of uranium fission, however, and since plutonium similarly undergoes fission it actually generates a portion of a reactor's energy output. In a CANDU reactor this portion is roughly one-half. Canada is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which requires states to agree not to produce nuclear weapons in order to purchase CANDU designs (which are in use or being built in China, South Korea, Argentina, India, Pakistan, and Romania). All CANDU reactors are subject to IAEA safeguards that ensure their compliance with that UN agency's global non-proliferation standard. There is a common misconception that the plutonium for India's Operation Smiling Buddha nuclear test was produced in a CANDU-like design; in fact the plutonium was produced in a reactor based on the NRX design. India has some reactors based on the CANDU design, used for power generation. While these reactors could in principle be used for plutonium production, India has a locally-designed and built reactor (Dhruva) which is designed for plutonium production. It is this reactor which is thought to have produced the plutonium for India's more recent Operation Shakti nuclear tests.

link

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Remy XO
Well my point is that we should'nt threaten a country that we are going to take them over for running a country in a manner we don't like, then blame them for making nukes to defend themselves, then tell its ally China to tell them to stop making nukes all while helping India with their nuclear program.

It fits into Bushes whole idea of rewarding democracy and fighting terror. India has done both in his book I assume.

I'm not saying its the greatest idea, but it is ambitious, if only he knew how to carry it out well.

 

[Remy XO]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
It fits into Bushes whole idea of rewarding democracy and fighting terror. India has done both in his book I assume.

I'm not saying its the greatest idea, but it is ambitious, if only he knew how to carry it out well.

I know it sounds stupid but at this rate of pissin countries off, we will see WW3 by the end of the decade.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: K1052
Where is the condemnation of the Canadians?

IIRC, it was their reactor technology that enabled India to produce materials for weapons.

FYI (Canada's nuclear reactors):

A political issue with the CANDU reactor is the contention that its ability to refuel without shutting down also makes it easier to produce plutonium. All commercial reactor designs produce plutonium as a natural byproduct of uranium fission, however, and since plutonium similarly undergoes fission it actually generates a portion of a reactor's energy output. In a CANDU reactor this portion is roughly one-half. Canada is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which requires states to agree not to produce nuclear weapons in order to purchase CANDU designs (which are in use or being built in China, South Korea, Argentina, India, Pakistan, and Romania). All CANDU reactors are subject to IAEA safeguards that ensure their compliance with that UN agency's global non-proliferation standard. There is a common misconception that the plutonium for India's Operation Smiling Buddha nuclear test was produced in a CANDU-like design; in fact the plutonium was produced in a reactor based on the NRX design. India has some reactors based on the CANDU design, used for power generation. While these reactors could in principle be used for plutonium production, India has a locally-designed and built reactor (Dhruva) which is designed for plutonium production. It is this reactor which is thought to have produced the plutonium for India's more recent Operation Shakti nuclear tests.

link

*smacks head*

I forgot that it wasn't the CANDU.

It was the CIRUS (NRX type) research reactor (link) that Canada supplied to India.


Edit: Also, I don't think the CANDUs that were sold to India are under safeguards any more so who knows what they are doing now.

 

[tommywishbone]

We are absurd. On monday we insist that North Korea must shut down their nuclear program. On tuesday we attempt to help India modernize & expand their nuclear program. Completely absurd.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: tommywishbone
We are absurd. On monday we insist that North Korea must shut down their nuclear program. On tuesday we attempt to help India modernize & expand their nuclear program. Completely absurd.

We are offering our services to help with India's civilian power program.

If North Korea wanted to buy a few light water reactors, I'm sure we (or another nation) would be happy to oblige. Instead they decided to use their weapons program to blackmail the international community into giving them free fuel and energy.

 

[Remy XO]

Originally posted by: K1052

We are offering our services to help with India's civilian power program.

If North Korea wanted to buy a few light water reactors, I'm sure we (or another nation) would be happy to oblige. Instead they decided to use their weapons program to blackmail the international community into giving them free fuel and energy.

They're not "blackmailing" anyone, its the compromise they have to pay to tell a nation that they cant have nukes jsut because they say so. The only reason they re-opened their operations was because Bush labeled them the axis of evil that they need to take out.

Right now its all a trust game. First Bush says they will overtake their tyrant country, then say throw down your nukes and I will give you food. If you were N. Korea can really trust a person that says one thing then say another?

N. Korea isnt just going to throw down their nukes overnight. It's like a Bully telling another person that hes going to kill him and take his house, then the person goes and gets a gun, then the bully says, "oh just kidding, throw away your weapon and I will be nice to you." Ofcourse he wants to have peace with the bigger guy but hes going to have all these voices on his shoulders telling him not to trust him. Too much politics involved.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat
India is a democracy and has checks and balances. The countries China gives aid to - such as North Korea and Pakistan are fascist dictatorships. Big difference.

You keep saying Muslims are evil

Lol your country has like 200 million of them running around.

A country with 200 million "evil" people should not have anything.

WTF are you talking about?

My country :roll: You mean America? Or maybe Europe?

Muslims are evil :roll:

Iranians may be, nowhere did I say all Muslims are evil. I think they need reform but I don't believe anyone is inherently 'evil'. Thats stupid.


BTW notice that Britain, France and Russia are behind America on this. You don't have to be Indian to want India to have civilian nuclear power.

You talk more about India than Indian people yet you are supposedly white.

Every country has a right to nuclear power. Saying one nation doesn't have a right is stupid.

Go read the Muslim threads you post in. You have something against them yet India has 200 million of them.

The people of Iran are not hardcore Muslims like the people in Pakistan-India.

Who cares who is behind this? India already has nuclear weapons and so does Pakistan. The second they proved it everything changed.

My point is you think Muslim nations shouldn't have nuclear weapons, but India has 200 million Muslims running around. If they want they could easily destroy any democratic system in India.

Since Muslims ar evil and India has 200 million of them, I am sure they will be working on this nuclear project, having secrets, even having access to the bombs.

You trust Muslims now?

Do you even know any Indians? I doubt it.

Anyways you are putting words in my mouth. Muslims are evil this Muslims are evil that, you must be Indian! I think you should see a psychologist about repressed feelings. Maybe you think Muslims are evil, I for one have never said that.

As for India - Have you ever thought for a second that India is a rising democracy, and that might interest Americans and the West because we have no real allies in that region other then Israel, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea? All relatively small countries?

Anyone interested in geo-politics is looking at India and China right now. So its not just me beating a dead horse. Its important for Westerners to make a good decision now in order to secure the future.

Check out India's military sales to countries the U.S labels as "bad".

Check out how many military companies in India the U.S has sanctioned.

Democracy or not, they do not view our enemies as "bad"..

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat
India is a democracy and has checks and balances. The countries China gives aid to - such as North Korea and Pakistan are fascist dictatorships. Big difference.

You keep saying Muslims are evil

Lol your country has like 200 million of them running around.

A country with 200 million "evil" people should not have anything.

WTF are you talking about?

My country :roll: You mean America? Or maybe Europe?

Muslims are evil :roll:

Iranians may be, nowhere did I say all Muslims are evil. I think they need reform but I don't believe anyone is inherently 'evil'. Thats stupid.


BTW notice that Britain, France and Russia are behind America on this. You don't have to be Indian to want India to have civilian nuclear power.

You talk more about India than Indian people yet you are supposedly white.

Every country has a right to nuclear power. Saying one nation doesn't have a right is stupid.

Go read the Muslim threads you post in. You have something against them yet India has 200 million of them.

The people of Iran are not hardcore Muslims like the people in Pakistan-India.

Who cares who is behind this? India already has nuclear weapons and so does Pakistan. The second they proved it everything changed.

My point is you think Muslim nations shouldn't have nuclear weapons, but India has 200 million Muslims running around. If they want they could easily destroy any democratic system in India.

Since Muslims ar evil and India has 200 million of them, I am sure they will be working on this nuclear project, having secrets, even having access to the bombs.

You trust Muslims now?

Do you even know any Indians? I doubt it.

Anyways you are putting words in my mouth. Muslims are evil this Muslims are evil that, you must be Indian! I think you should see a psychologist about repressed feelings. Maybe you think Muslims are evil, I for one have never said that.

As for India - Have you ever thought for a second that India is a rising democracy, and that might interest Americans and the West because we have no real allies in that region other then Israel, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea? All relatively small countries?

Anyone interested in geo-politics is looking at India and China right now. So its not just me beating a dead horse. Its important for Westerners to make a good decision now in order to secure the future.

Check out India's military sales to countries the U.S labels as "bad".

Check out how many military companies in India the U.S has sanctioned.

Democracy or not, they do not view our enemies as "bad"..

India is pretty chummy with Iran, so much so that Iran pisses off Pakistan on a regular basis, Pakistan being the BORDERING country with Iran.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat
India is a democracy and has checks and balances. The countries China gives aid to - such as North Korea and Pakistan are fascist dictatorships. Big difference.

You keep saying Muslims are evil

Lol your country has like 200 million of them running around.

A country with 200 million "evil" people should not have anything.

WTF are you talking about?

My country :roll: You mean America? Or maybe Europe?

Muslims are evil :roll:

Iranians may be, nowhere did I say all Muslims are evil. I think they need reform but I don't believe anyone is inherently 'evil'. Thats stupid.


BTW notice that Britain, France and Russia are behind America on this. You don't have to be Indian to want India to have civilian nuclear power.

You talk more about India than Indian people yet you are supposedly white.

Every country has a right to nuclear power. Saying one nation doesn't have a right is stupid.

Go read the Muslim threads you post in. You have something against them yet India has 200 million of them.

The people of Iran are not hardcore Muslims like the people in Pakistan-India.

Who cares who is behind this? India already has nuclear weapons and so does Pakistan. The second they proved it everything changed.

My point is you think Muslim nations shouldn't have nuclear weapons, but India has 200 million Muslims running around. If they want they could easily destroy any democratic system in India.

Since Muslims ar evil and India has 200 million of them, I am sure they will be working on this nuclear project, having secrets, even having access to the bombs.

You trust Muslims now?

Do you even know any Indians? I doubt it.

Anyways you are putting words in my mouth. Muslims are evil this Muslims are evil that, you must be Indian! I think you should see a psychologist about repressed feelings. Maybe you think Muslims are evil, I for one have never said that.

As for India - Have you ever thought for a second that India is a rising democracy, and that might interest Americans and the West because we have no real allies in that region other then Israel, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea? All relatively small countries?

Anyone interested in geo-politics is looking at India and China right now. So its not just me beating a dead horse. Its important for Westerners to make a good decision now in order to secure the future.

Check out India's military sales to countries the U.S labels as "bad".

Check out how many military companies in India the U.S has sanctioned.

Democracy or not, they do not view our enemies as "bad"..

India is pretty chummy with Iran, so much so that Iran pisses off Pakistan on a regular basis, Pakistan being the BORDERING country with Iran.

I'm quite sure thats more for survival. They are surrounded by hostile Islamic nations to the West and hostile China to the East.

Its a very similiar situation to Israel.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat
India is a democracy and has checks and balances. The countries China gives aid to - such as North Korea and Pakistan are fascist dictatorships. Big difference.

You keep saying Muslims are evil

Lol your country has like 200 million of them running around.

A country with 200 million "evil" people should not have anything.

WTF are you talking about?

My country :roll: You mean America? Or maybe Europe?

Muslims are evil :roll:

Iranians may be, nowhere did I say all Muslims are evil. I think they need reform but I don't believe anyone is inherently 'evil'. Thats stupid.


BTW notice that Britain, France and Russia are behind America on this. You don't have to be Indian to want India to have civilian nuclear power.

Iranians are evil.................

 

[Chinadefender]

I'm quite sure thats more for survival. They are surrounded by hostile Islamic nations to the West and hostile China to the East.

Its a very similiar situation to Israel.
-------------------------------------------

Other South Asian countries know which one is "most" hostile 🙂

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Proletariat
India is a democracy and has checks and balances. The countries China gives aid to - such as North Korea and Pakistan are fascist dictatorships. Big difference.

You keep saying Muslims are evil

Lol your country has like 200 million of them running around.

A country with 200 million "evil" people should not have anything.

WTF are you talking about?

My country :roll: You mean America? Or maybe Europe?

Muslims are evil :roll:

Iranians may be, nowhere did I say all Muslims are evil. I think they need reform but I don't believe anyone is inherently 'evil'. Thats stupid.


BTW notice that Britain, France and Russia are behind America on this. You don't have to be Indian to want India to have civilian nuclear power.

I'm sorry, but didn't you say your uncle is from India, or we are sadly mistaken.

America is trying to make up for the years it has backed Pakistan and stood against India. Its no big deal actually. I think the Bush administration has also offered F-16s and F-18s to India, but I doubt India will buy them.

China just wants to remain uncontested in the region and wants pure dominance over all countries. Of course it doesn't want India to progress in any way.

 

[Aimster]

I thought China and India had close relations?

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Remy XO
They're not "blackmailing" anyone, its the compromise they have to pay to tell a nation that they cant have nukes jsut because they say so. The only reason they re-opened their operations was because Bush labeled them the axis of evil that they need to take out.

Attemp to re-write history much? Clinton agreed to supply two light water reactors to NK under the agreement that NK would halt all weapons development. Shortly after Bush took office NK admited in a diplomatic meeting that they had been pursing the weapons during the entire time the Clinton agreement was in force (and all the while the US was buildiing two reactors in NK with US taxpayer dollers). It was then that after proving they can't abide a treaty they SIGNED that they decided to make some nukes to try to blackmail the US into more concessions.

Originally posted by: Remy XO
Right now its all a trust game. First Bush says they will overtake their tyrant country, then say throw down your nukes and I will give you food. If you were N. Korea can really trust a person that says one thing then say another?

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. NK breached a fvcking treaty and it's Bush's fault Kim is a liar? Get real and grow up.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Other South Asian countries know which one is "most" hostile 🙂

Yea, China has only invaded South Asia at least half a dozen times.

 

[kalster]

Its a astonishing that China being a communist country is scared of 1 of the largest democrary in the world possesing nucelar weapons, India unlike China doesnt have any history of supporting dictatorships like Pakistan or North Korea

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: kalster
Its a astonishing that China being a communist country is scared of 1 of the largest democrary in the world possesing nucelar weapons, India unlike China doesnt have any history of supporting dictatorships like Pakistan or North Korea

China and India have been to war and are in constant dispute over territory and border limits. Making India a more capable defender will be seen as a threat by Bejing.

 

[Chinadefender]

Sadly you have nothing to know about Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) . It is common that some guys would come out blah blah without reading a bit more.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/WMD/treaty/

Nuclear power station has relationship with nuclear weapons, despite which reactor it is.

So even the civilian nuclear technology and material transfer, and the nuclear powers are still in strict supervision under NPT.

And India has not even signed NPT!!! Understand?

It could also be expected that Pakistan would also ask for it. If talking about politics, Pakistan plays a much more important role in the war against terrorism.

Do not forget that Russia had to cease the civilian nuclear cooperation with Iran under huge international pressure. Russia would be happy now. France might also restart the cooperation with Iran.

I do not mean to be against any country. But if it continues, proliferation of Nuclear Weapons could not be stopped. Surely some guys may like it.

OK. So no country else would want to take non-proliferation responsibility, why should China alone take this responsibility???

Proliferation makes profits and prevents lots of suspicion and accuse. OK. If you have money, you may come to buy.

Welcome to this nuke world.

 

[Chinadefender]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Other South Asian countries know which one is "most" hostile 🙂

Yea, China has only invaded South Asia at least half a dozen times.

--------------------------
Go back to high school and learn more history.

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: kalster
Its a astonishing that China being a communist country is scared of 1 of the largest democrary in the world possesing nucelar weapons, India unlike China doesnt have any history of supporting dictatorships like Pakistan or North Korea

China and India have been to war and are in constant dispute over territory and border limits. Making India a more capable defender will be seen as a threat by Bejing.

It's about time the U.S. became friends with India to contain China. They're the only ones who have to a chance to rival China's growth (and a small chance at that).