China to their bitch... "no new jets for Taiwan"

[OCGuy]

Tell em to float the yuan and you'll think about it.

The America I remember wouldn't have taken this kinda shit. What happened?

The US does something hawkish = "Oh my god those imperialist bastards!"

The US does something a little less-hawkish = "How can they take that shit!"


The rest of the world's view of the US is quite interesting to say the least. Great Satan when you dont need/want us, hand out when you do.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

The US does something hawkish = "Oh my god those imperialist bastards!"

The US does something a little less-hawkish = "How can they take that shit!"


The rest of the world's view of the US is quite interesting to say the least. Great Satan when you dont need/want us, hand out when you do.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

You want to be the worlds only superpower then you're going to cop some shit.

 

[Nebor]

I don't know about you, but I am not OK with nuclear winter due to some fluffy idea of "espousing liberty."

Absolutely I'm OK with going over the brink of oblivion in defense of Taiwan, because we've assured them that we will do so.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Absolutely I'm OK with going over the brink of oblivion in defense of Taiwan, because we've assured them that we will do so.

Exacly.

Most of us non-nuclear powers dropped our programs with the promise that we'd be protected.

We have 30% of the worlds uranium reserves, we could build us some nukes. :sneaky:

 

[BoomerD]

Why did you let Republicans sell out your couintry?

Sorry. I voted against them...other than that...without resorting to "voting from the rooftops," there's not much more I can do.
Republicans always do what's best for their corporate owners...not the peons formerly known as "We the People."

Unfortunately, the Democrats are getting almost as bad about selling out the people.

 

[MovingTarget]

We don't need to "espouse liberty" halfway around the world anymore.

It is a all smoke and bluster...we would never fully come to Taiwan's aid if China crossed the straight.

I don't know about you, but I am not OK with nuclear winter due to some fluffy idea of "espousing liberty."

We'll just have to disagree then. Under all the guises that we've "espoused liberty" lately, this is one that is legitimate. I wouldn't support launching nukes in such a situation, but we have plenty of conventional forces to call upon should the need arise. With the arms we sell them, they have at least somewhat of a fighting chance. We would come to their aid to a great extent because of Taiwan's strategic importance.

Why? Taiwan is not our problem.

I'm one of the few who thinks we should stop ALL foreign aid...take care of the USA first. Since we have such a huge debt, why borrow money to turn around and give it or loan it to another country?

Aren't they paying us for the weapons? That is a net economic positive for us. Only should China turn military aggressor outside its current boarders would it become a net loser. Having Taiwan conquered by China would be the tip of the iceberg with respect to military problems in SE Asia. It is the canary in the coal mine for Chinese aggression.

 

[OCGuy]

Absolutely I'm OK with going over the brink of oblivion in defense of Taiwan, because we've assured them that we will do so.

Yikes man, yikes.

 

[BoomerD]

We'll just have to disagree then. Under all the guises that we've "espoused liberty" lately, this is one that is legitimate. I wouldn't support launching nukes in such a situation, but we have plenty of conventional forces to call upon should the need arise. With the arms we sell them, they have at least somewhat of a fighting chance. We would come to their aid to a great extent because of Taiwan's strategic importance.




Aren't they paying us for the weapons? That is a net economic positive for us. Only should China turn military aggressor outside its current boarders would it become a net loser. Having Taiwan conquered by China would be the tip of the iceberg with respect to military problems in SE Asia. It is the canary in the coal mine for Chinese aggression.

Why should America risk a single American life over this? IMO, it's going to happen sooner or later anyway...as China gets stronger and stronger, they're going to try to make more power plays. China has always considered Taiwan to be part of China...not a separate country.
While the US makes nice noises about protecting Taiwan, you'll notice, the US government still avoids pissing China off by recognizing Taiwan as an independent country.

 

[MovingTarget]

Why should America risk a single American life over this? IMO, it's going to happen sooner or later anyway...as China gets stronger and stronger, they're going to try to make more power plays. China has always considered Taiwan to be part of China...not a separate country.
While the US makes nice noises about protecting Taiwan, you'll notice, the US government still avoids pissing China off by recognizing Taiwan as an independent country.

I don't give 2¢ if mainland China thinks Taiwan belongs to them. That is for the people of Taiwan to decide, and them alone. After 50+ years of defacto independence, they damn well deserve it. If Taiwan eventually decides to join the mainland, then fine, so long as it is a peaceful transition (i.e. not at gunpoint). In the mean time, not stating Taiwan as independent is so that China can save face to its own citizens. It keeps the peace. We shouldn't let that kind of aggression stand if it comes to pass. It hasn't worked in the past with other ascending belligerent nations, and it won't work with Taiwan. Supporting their right to self-determination is the moral thing to do.

 

[OCGuy]

I don't give 2¢ if mainland China thinks Taiwan belongs to them. That is for the people of Taiwan to decide, and them alone. After 50+ years of defacto independence, they damn well deserve it. If Taiwan eventually decides to join the mainland, then fine, so long as it is a peaceful transition (i.e. not at gunpoint). In the mean time, not stating Taiwan as independent is so that China can save face to its own citizens. It keeps the peace. We shouldn't let that kind of aggression stand if it comes to pass. It hasn't worked in the past with other ascending belligerent nations, and it won't work with Taiwan. Supporting their right to self-determination is the moral thing to do.

Well unfortunately for you, it looks like our government has decided we are over-extended, and is backing off the Taiwan thing for now.

That little piece of land isn't worth a single American life.

I'm OK with selling them weapons to defend themselves, but I bet we don't step in when China takes them back. And they will.

 

[Nebor]

Yikes man, yikes.

Some people are so afraid of the world coming to an end. Think of it, you'd never have to call a 1-800 number for customer service again.

 

[OCGuy]

Some people are so afraid of the world coming to an end. Think of it, you'd never have to call a 1-800 number for customer service again.

Exactly! We should just get involved in every conflict possible with nuclear-armed states with ICBMs, just to wag our big dick around and show who is boss!

 

[K1052]

Why should America risk a single American life over this? IMO, it's going to happen sooner or later anyway...as China gets stronger and stronger, they're going to try to make more power plays. China has always considered Taiwan to be part of China...not a separate country.
While the US makes nice noises about protecting Taiwan, you'll notice, the US government still avoids pissing China off by recognizing Taiwan as an independent country.

We've tread some version of this line for 40 years, I doubt it's going to change anytime soon. Nor would China be likely to risk the economic fallout that such a conflict would now surely bring, absent some huge surge in nationalism.

It is in the US interest to support the ROC along with Japan, South Korea, and increasingly Vietnam (of all places) to hedge against China's growing military and economic influence in the region.

 

[Nebor]

Well unfortunately for you, it looks like our government has decided we are over-extended, and is backing off the Taiwan thing for now.

That little piece of land isn't worth a single American life.

I'm OK with selling them weapons to defend themselves, but I bet we don't step in when China takes them back. And they will.

Fighter jets are really the glitzy part of the deal. As another poster above mentioned, we've already given them the most advanced anti-ship and air defense weaponry in the world. Defensively speaking, they could inflict massive damage to Chinese aggressors. China doesn't have a plane or an intermediate range missile that couldn't be downed by the Patriot PAC-3. And their ships would be annihilated by anti-ship missiles.

Also they'll just sell them the jets quietly or in parts, like they've done before.

 

[jman19]

Probably the one that will lend us the most money.

Fixed.

 

[Nebor]

Exactly! We should just get involved in every conflict possible with nuclear-armed states with ICBMs, just to wag our big dick around and show who is boss!

Holy christ, like the next version of angry birds is worth putting off war for.

It's about principles, and the obligations we have to our allies. And dick wagging.

 

[OCGuy]

Fighter jets are really the glitzy part of the deal. As another poster above mentioned, we've already given them the most advanced anti-ship and air defense weaponry in the world. Defensively speaking, they could inflict massive damage to Chinese aggressors. China doesn't have a plane or an intermediate range missile that couldn't be downed by the Patriot PAC-3. And their ships would be annihilated by anti-ship missiles.

Also they'll just sell them the jets quietly or in parts, like they've done before.

You really think Taiwan could stop Chinese agression?

You must think our token trip-wire force in SK would stop Seoul from being leveled as well...(which BTW I am for our forces in SK, as we are technically still at war)


Sometimes I feel like some people on this site only read news from an American POV.

 

[Nebor]

You really think Taiwan could stop Chinese agression?

You must think our token trip-wire force in SK would stop Seoul from being leveled as well...


Sometimes I feel like some people on this site only read news from an American POV.

No, they wouldn't stop Chinese aggression. The Chinese have more aircraft and ships than the Taiwanese have ammunition to destroy them. But they could make it hurt. And they could buy time for others to get involved.

I've read the 2009 ROK Joint OPPLAN. I know how that war plays out. It's a mess for SK, and Japan, but we win in less than a week.

 

[BoomerD]

No, they wouldn't stop Chinese aggression. The Chinese have more aircraft and ships than the Taiwanese have ammunition to destroy them. But they could make it hurt. And they could buy time for others to get involved.

I've read the 2009 ROK Joint OPPLAN. I know how that war plays out. It's a mess for SK, and Japan, but we win in less than a week.

Unless we nuke everything and everyone...that's just a wet-dream.

Remember, we were supposed to only be in Iraq for 6 months...

 

[K1052]

Unless we nuke everything and everyone...that's just a wet-dream.

Remember, we were supposed to only be in Iraq for 6 months...

We don't have to invade it. Just sink all their ships and down a large percentage of their air force to put them on the defensive. They can try to use NK to go after SK but that probably won't work now.

 

[Nebor]

Unless we nuke everything and everyone...that's just a wet-dream.

Remember, we were supposed to only be in Iraq for 6 months...

Militarily speaking, things went faster than expected and we destroyed Saddam's army\government well within the planned time frame.

The Iraq invasion was a stunning military success, just like the Afghanistan invasion. We crippled the infrastructure, armed forces and government within days.

It's the whole nation building bit that we weren't ready for and aren't designed to do.

 

[OCGuy]

More reading about international affairs is required for some of the people in this thread. Here is another quid pro quo example:





IRAN: Russia backtracks on S-300 missile systems for Tehran

After a mysterious delay and a public challenge by Tehran, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov appeared to backtrack on Russia's pledge to supply S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Iran, telling Moscow's official state news agency on Wednesday that Russia "has never taken actions that could cause the destabilization of certain regions."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bab...ovide-tehran-with-promised-s300-missiles.html


Gee, I wonder what we did in return for Russia not providing Iran with S300, let alone their S400 SAM systems:

Obama blocks delivery of bunker-busters to Israel

"Officials said the U.S. military was ordered to divert a shipment of smart bunker-buster bombs from Israel to a military base in Diego Garcia. They said the shipment of 387 smart munitions had been slated to join pre-positioned U.S. military equipment in Israel Air Force bases."

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/me_israel0217_03_18.asp


Read, learn.....China did something in return for us not sending the new planes. This Russia/US play on Iran/Israel just happened to be a little more public than most.

 

[K1052]

The Russians also want to get paid for providing fuel/consulting/contracting for the Bushehr nuclear plant....which they've been doing since 1992.

Don't want a golden goose to get bombed on account of selling a few SAMs.

 

[BoomerD]

Holy christ, like the next version of angry birds is worth putting off war for.

It's about principles, and the obligations we have to our allies. And dick wagging.

Allies? That's funny...I can't find any numbers for Taiwanese troops in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Oh, you mean allies when it's to their advantage.

Militarily speaking, things went faster than expected and we destroyed Saddam's army\government well within the planned time frame.

The Iraq invasion was a stunning military success, just like the Afghanistan invasion. We crippled the infrastructure, armed forces and government within days.

It's the whole nation building bit that we weren't ready for and aren't designed to do.

I agree that "nation-building" isn't what our military is for...nor should it be.

The Iraq invasion went so fast and was so easy, because, for the most part, the Iraqi troops just laid down their weapons and melted away into the desert. We never did have the big battles with the Republican Guard that everyone was expecting...

Nope...they just walked away, became part of the general population...and became rebel fighters...insurgents.

 

[cwjerome]

We need to back out of the treaty with Taiwan ASAP. If China wants it back, let them have it.

BTW, anyone seeing this as a sign of US weakness regarding China is fooling themselves. Our military is still unmatched, with MAD always on the table. I'm not sure if some of the kids around here know how things like this work, but there was probably a back-room deal with them where we benefited as well.

People are so caught up in this China thing it is almost like a bad meme that won't go away. They are a rising economic and military power, but this is a little over-blown.

Wrong post on multiple levels. It's not only bad form to simply "back out" of treaties but it's dangerous to our integrity and stability. Look at the big picture and think about 2nd and 3rd order of effects.

This is not about comparing raw military might, it's about regional balance of power issues. And throwing MAD out there is ridiculous... you can't fall back on that and use it as a guide for anything because it's a non-issue, it doesn't apply. No country on earth considers MAD when trying to expand their local geostrategic reach and power.

I can agree that there are a lot of China hate and fear mongers, but that doesn't mean everybody who wishes the sale went through is one or the other. I know there are reasonable reasons for not going through with the sale (although I think there are better reasons for why we should have) but none of them were contained within your post.