• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

China tells US to 'cure its addiction to debt'

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Jhhnn said:
It's hard to blame the Chinese for exploiting the exploiters, American Capitalists, who want a strong dollar to maximize their offshoring efforts, or the American public, who want a strong dollar to buy lots of schlock from Guangdong.

If we're dumb enough & greedy enough to cut our own throats, let capitalists reap enormous profits while offshoring employment, they'll take advantage of that, as will lots of other countries.

Maybe we should give those capitalists another tax cut, seeing as how they're the Job Creators!, huh? That way, they'll have the money to finance offshoring faster than ever, and to lend more money to the govt to create the required illusions.
Click to expand...

That's exactly why the Republicans are taking the side of China against the US in this.
 
China is fine with the US becoming a third world country. Yes, let's implement austerity measures until we have all capital flowing out of the US into China and we are reduced to their level of per-capita wealth. China doesn't care if the American population is educated, healthy, or working. All they want is US capital.
 
Jhhnn said:
Whatever. The day that the Chinese stop buying American bonds will be the day that the value of the dollar crumples like Dick Cheney's hunting buddy. The value of the dollar is based on demand, silly boy, and on faith. If they quit buying, it means that they no longer want or need American dollars, that they don't believe their holdings will be safe in that investment vehicle. They'll convert dollars to whatever currency they see as safe, invest there. It's not that difficult.
Click to expand...

The issue is, they can't quit buying until their own economy becomes an internal consumer economy, they are still a long way from that.
 
Jhhnn said:
Whatever. The day that the Chinese stop buying American bonds will be the day that the value of the dollar crumples like Dick Cheney's hunting buddy. The value of the dollar is based on demand, silly boy, and on faith. If they quit buying, it means that they no longer want or need American dollars, that they don't believe their holdings will be safe in that investment vehicle. They'll convert dollars to whatever currency they see as safe, invest there. It's not that difficult.
Click to expand...

Good!

We need to stop spending.

I was going to say more but "We need to stop spending" about says it all.
 
LegendKiller said:
The issue is, they can't quit buying until their own economy becomes an internal consumer economy, they are still a long way from that.
Click to expand...

They can, however, convert large portions of their dollar earnings via proxies, and pay for all their offshore purchases with dollars. They can also buy corporate ownership worldwide converting dollars to local currency. If they want to position themselves to mitigate losses from potential dollar devaluation, they can do so.

As it is, they've tied their fortunes to our own, shown good faith recirculating dollars back into this country as investment. And they apparently intend to reduce their dependence on American markets, as well-

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/thinktank/2011-02/28/content_12085920.htm

There are apparently advantages to some central economic planning beyond having the rich get richer...
 
JS80 said:
China should first cure their addiction to currency manipulation and hypocrisy.
Click to expand...

Wow..I actually agree with JS80. First, we have had people agree with Dave today that would never have happened before and now I agree with JS80. OMG, the world has just come to an end! :biggrin:
 
JS80 said:
China should first cure their addiction to currency manipulation and hypocrisy.
Click to expand...

+1.

and with that statement to the US by the chinese, finally their 'national shame' complex has been solved, but when you look at the human abuses there the ends dont justify the means.
 
Engineer said:
Wow..I actually agree with JS80. First, we have had people agree with Dave today that would never have happened before and now I agree with JS80. OMG, the world has just come to an end! :biggrin:
Click to expand...

i agreed with craig the other day, the end is near..
 
Icepick said:
Excellent answer. Where's the GIF of the serious guy clapping? That would go perfect here.
Click to expand...

cmicsfee-clapping.gif
 
Jhhnn said:
They can, however, convert large portions of their dollar earnings via proxies, and pay for all their offshore purchases with dollars. They can also buy corporate ownership worldwide converting dollars to local currency. If they want to position themselves to mitigate losses from potential dollar devaluation, they can do so.

As it is, they've tied their fortunes to our own, shown good faith recirculating dollars back into this country as investment. And they apparently intend to reduce their dependence on American markets, as well-

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/thinktank/2011-02/28/content_12085920.htm

There are apparently advantages to some central economic planning beyond having the rich get richer...
Click to expand...

They can only convert it if others are willing to accept dollars AND those dollars aren't immediately dumped onto the market. They can buy corp ownership ONLY if they can buy it in dollars, otherwise they lose.

They can't position themselves for dollar deprecation, at all, simply because doing so would cause dollar depreciation. Swaps and/or using the dollars to purchase other goods would put the dollars on the market, creating downward pressure, something they must avoid.

There are no advantages to central planning in the long run. Ultimately it fails because pet projects, corruption, mal-investment...etc greatly exceed that of a more free market. Take, for example, their housing market. In the US it ultimately died because the last dollar couldn't be convinced to buy. In China, there's no last dollar, there's only what the politicians want. They are willing to drive the economy into the ground to maintain their power.

China's problems WILL come home to roost, it's only a matter of time. They are punch drunk off of currency manipulation and FDI + easy credit. The politicians are scared shitless that they will be left without a seat once the music stops so they are trying to put the 8-track on repeat. However, eventually, the tape will be too worn to keep playing and will fray and break. It's inevitable.

When it breaks, all hell will break loose within China.

As JS80 said, before they criticize anybody about debt, they should point the finger at themselves first. They are the ones who have manipulated the world to bootstrap their economy up to the 21st century. THEY caused this entire thing.
 
a777pilot said:
You bet I am.

My first wife was from China and my two beautiful daughters are half Chinese. So fuck off. I call them "#####*" because they are Chinese. They are not Americans and do not, repeat, NOT, have our best interest at heart. It's an country and enemy thing. Not a race thing.


* I will in the future refer to PRC citizens as "Two buck chuck". Yes that is a mouthful but it is PC. Sorry for offending those here with my blatant racism.
Click to expand...

Pics or shens.
 
iGas said:
China does have a solution.
Click to expand...

What solution is contained in that Op/Ed piece? None.

The "solution" he discussed, dumping USD assets to strengthen the RMB is a non-starter. That immediately puts a crimp on manufacturing as the goods in China, after you consider the negative good-will of foreign manufacturing, R&D costs (incl. IP issues), transportation, manufacturing issues...etc, will tip the scales towards home-sourcing of manufacturing. This will begin to put a huge crimp on the middle-class inside the country and crush the infrastructure and RE market.

China has put themselves into a Chinese finger trap. The longer they delay the inevitable drop in their market, the worse it will become. They should have stopped this BS 10 years ago, but instead, they got drunk off of the manipulation.

What's worse is that the entire world is going to pay for their stupidity. It's unfortunate our own politicians are beholden to the Chinese manipulators and we've allowed them to manipulate our own politics through the Chamber of Commerce and other gimmickry.
 
PeshakJang said:
We can start with a 20% tariff on Chinese imports.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: screw the Chinese, they have zero right to scold us as long as they treat their people like insects and manipulate thier currency they can kiss our fatten American asses.

And although they are often touted as our largest creditor, thats bullshit they are our largest FORIEGN creditor but hold only a small fraction of our debt. The vast majority of our debt is US owned.
 
disappoint said:
Start what the great depression II? You DO realize that's how the first greeat depression started don't you? Ugh. Some people never learn from past mistakes/history.
Click to expand...

And some people have simplistic views of history. Tariffs did not start the great depression. Foreign trade only accounted for 5% of the US economy back then. Also trade with Germany and Canada is totally different than trade with China. I don't think anybody here is advocated tariffs with developed countries.
 
We need a real, self-sustaining economy. What we have isn't self sustaining and it is coming around to bite us. It has already started nibbling and people still are oblivious to it, somehow 🙄

And if other nations need us to have an economy based on debt, well, screw them. We don't need that, and they shouldn't need that either. We need to get our crappy system straightened out (yeah I know, good luck with that) and they then would need to get their crappy system straightened out as well.
 
Engineer said:
Wow..I actually agree with JS80. First, we have had people agree with Dave today that would never have happened before and now I agree with JS80. OMG, the world has just come to an end! :biggrin:
Click to expand...

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" = Frenemies.😉
 
LegendKiller said:
They can only convert it if others are willing to accept dollars AND those dollars aren't immediately dumped onto the market. They can buy corp ownership ONLY if they can buy it in dollars, otherwise they lose.

They can't position themselves for dollar deprecation, at all, simply because doing so would cause dollar depreciation. Swaps and/or using the dollars to purchase other goods would put the dollars on the market, creating downward pressure, something they must avoid.

There are no advantages to central planning in the long run. Ultimately it fails because pet projects, corruption, mal-investment...etc greatly exceed that of a more free market. Take, for example, their housing market. In the US it ultimately died because the last dollar couldn't be convinced to buy. In China, there's no last dollar, there's only what the politicians want. They are willing to drive the economy into the ground to maintain their power.

China's problems WILL come home to roost, it's only a matter of time. They are punch drunk off of currency manipulation and FDI + easy credit. The politicians are scared shitless that they will be left without a seat once the music stops so they are trying to put the 8-track on repeat. However, eventually, the tape will be too worn to keep playing and will fray and break. It's inevitable.

When it breaks, all hell will break loose within China.

As JS80 said, before they criticize anybody about debt, they should point the finger at themselves first. They are the ones who have manipulated the world to bootstrap their economy up to the 21st century. THEY caused this entire thing.
Click to expand...

Heh. Dollars are easily convertible in virtually any amount. They're the world's reserve currency, remember? Dollars held by the Chinese are already in circulation, anyway. They can also hedge in the synthetic derivatives market, as well. It's not in their interests to either cause a dollar value decline or to revalue the yuan upward, anyway, and they've done what they can to provide stability. Funding US debt is part of that. If too many dollars don't come home, one way or another, their value will decline.

The Chinese economy is currently incapable of absorbing all the goods they could buy with their foreign reserves, so they're trying to change that, boost domestic consumption in a variety of ways. And the "ghost cities" are part of that- housing ready for the ongoing migration from the countryside that's occurring at the rate of 20-30M people / year. They won't be moving into shanty towns. Our own "ghost suburbs" won't be filled any time rsn, other than with immigrants, because our urban migration was over long ago. The notion that their housing surplus is worse than our own is absurd, because theirs is paid for, and because of the Chinese urban migration already mentioned.

All their fault, the Chinese, that is? Hardly. American capitalists have benefited every bit as much if not more. Our largest corporations. Our wealthiest citizens. It's not like the Chinese forced them to invest in China, or that the American public wasn't led into letting it be that way, at all. International capitalism and all that comes with it, remember? Or was there some part our leaders forgot to mention?

Of course they've bootstrapped themselves into the 21st century- it wasn't an accident, but rather the result of having leadership with vision & savvy. The notion that they'll suddenly derail & fly off the tracks of history is delusional wishful thinking, particularly considering their performance over the last 40 years.

So, uhh, anybody who wants to disparage the Chinese, engage in the usual raving and chest thumping over the internet using chinese made hardware, sitting in a chinese made chair at what's probably a chinese made desk, be my guest, fools.
 
Infohawk said:
And some people have simplistic views of history. Tariffs did not start the great depression. Foreign trade only accounted for 5% of the US economy back then. Also trade with Germany and Canada is totally different than trade with China. I don't think anybody here is advocated tariffs with developed countries.
Click to expand...


bingo. trading with countries whose standards of living and labor costs are equivalent to your own is economically fine. there is healthy competition between your industry and theirs, both domestically and abroad (although the germans and italians tend to own all the uber cars in the US). ford/GM europe have some VERY nice vehicles on the other side of the pond that are very well received.

when you try to compete with someone whose labor costs are 1/10 or 1/100 of yours, you simply cant, and that's what we're facing with china. once one company decided to offshore its labor, the rest had to follow suit because that was the only way for them to stay in business.

if you tariff chinese imports (and vietnamese, etc.) where standards of living aren't comparable, then you level the playing field for US manufacturing to remain competitive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Back
Top