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China says it would nuke the U.S over Taiwan

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Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Cool! we lose 200 million, they lose 800. We win!
Uh, more like we lose perhaps 10 or 15 million, quite possibly significantly less especially if our ABM system works at all, and they lose all 1.4 billion people unless we are feeling generous and spare a few.

You mean you hope that's the scenario. You are projecting based on data which is most likely flawed. Of course I forgot to mention that if you blanketed China enough to wipe the country out, you probably create enough radiation to wipe out most of the human population.

Call it a draw then.

Wouldn't that be worth it?
 
Nuke us with what?

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mj05lewis

Besides they need us as much as the powers that be need them. We are facilitating thier becoming the next superpower with massive investment, technology giving, raw materials and dollars to buy more leverage in both US government and US corporations which they are snapping up at an alarming rate. They are making US company execs rich with cheap and smart labor for thier warez. Heck even consumer is happy to pay $100 fro a mobo instead of $900... Naw give it 20 years, then they'll be a much better position to take Taiwan. Probably w/o a shot fired from USA.
 
Originally posted by: frankie38
Originally posted by: Tango
In the moment when the first (even small) nuclear device detonate in California the Dow Jones Index would lose 95%... ...

Where exactly in California? ....certain barrios could use some FEMA aid.


Wow.. pretty racist are you...
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
You mean you hope that's the scenario. You are projecting based on data which is most likely flawed. Of course I forgot to mention that if you blanketed China enough to wipe the country out, you probably create enough radiation to wipe out most of the human population.

Call it a draw then.

Wouldn't that be worth it?
As far as the data goes, I'm reasonably confident its accurate for the moment. The thing is China lacks many ballistic missiles that can hit the mainland US. This may change numbers wise in the future, but not drastically anytime soon. China simply has a rather limited nuclear long range arsenal. By contrast the US clearly has sufficient nuclear weaponry to take out all of China.

By the way, you're drastically overrating the effects of fallout from nuclear bombs as far as locations significantly far away from the blast area go. For starters, due to a desire to create more power bombs, the US's nuclear bombs of today are much more efficient than the ones used a Nagasaki and Hiroshima, converting more of their radiactivie material to energy, leaving less for the actual fallout. Most of the fallout is going over the Pacific, Japan might take some radiation, but even there the effects will be limited. The Pacific Ocean is large enough to pretty much harmlessly disperse the radioactivity that lands there. Now keep in mind how long weather patterns take to go from China to the US's West coasts, and remember this is the amount of time it should take for significant amounts of the radiactive material to land anywhere in the US.

One factor that most people don't realize about fallout is how fast it
decays. Fallout follows the t-1.2 law which states that for every sevenfold
increase in time after detonation there is a tenfold drop in radiation output.
Example, a reading of X level of radioactivity at Y hours after detonation
would indicate a level of radioactivity of .1X at 7Y hours after detonation.
This is accurate for 2,500 hours (14 weeks) following the explosion,
thereafter the doserate is lower than t-1.2 would predict. Example, if a
dose rate of 100 REM/hr was found at 1 hour after detonation(this assumes all significant fallout from the bomb has fallen, therefore starting with the
seven hour point is probably more realistic) would be 10 REM/hr at 7 hours,
1 REM/hr at 49 hours(2 days), .1 REM/hr at 343 hours(2 weeks), .01 REM/hr at2401 hours (14 weeks).
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/fallout.htm

What's particularly worth noting here is that in 49 hours, fallout's radiactivity drops to under one hundreth of what it was initially. The half-life of many nuclear bomb elements is short so they don't last for very long. On top of this, anyone receiving fallout will be receiving significantly less than one hundreth the amount China itself was initially exposed to, given the fallout is going to be dispersing and decreasing in density, and a bunch of the fallout is going to be going into the Pacific Ocean. By the time the fallout reaches the West Coast of the US, its effects are going to be quite limited.

Admitedly the US might for humanitarian reasons decided to just nuke China enough to destroy any resemblance of a coherent government and make a very firm example of them, but concerns about the worldwide effects of fallout and nuclear winter are typically highly overestimated when calculating these scenarios.
 
Originally posted by: Chinadefender
another place that is has a 50+ year old INDEPENDENT government, their own economy, their own currency, their own military
----------------------------

Confederacy also has their own government, their own economy, their own currency, their own military and diplomatic relations with UK and France. However, it never got recognized by major countries at that time. And also Chechen, Scotland...

.And is there any law or common sense that 50+ year could change these basics? Scots will be grateful if you could prove it

Hey, Chinadefender, I was talking to my Chinese friend and she told me about the big Internet story on this son of a communist leader sending Chinese army to beat up farmers in a village, and killed quite a few of them too, because those farmers refused to sell the land to the that guy. Is that true?

Either way, maybe before you worry about whether Taiwan belongs to China or not, you should worry about the rampant corruption, social injustice, crime and huge income gap that is making Chinese society a ticking time bomb for a social unrest. I mean if you really love China, you should get more pissed off by those communist leaders building up huge Swiss bank account rather then us Taiwanese wanting to continue our way of life.

Back to the topic. Don't worry about China nuking anyone, they have bigger problems to deal with. Yes China is growing rapidly, but they have some serious problem too. The rich are driving Bentley and Ferrari, and the poor cannot even afford proper clothes or put food on the table. The banking system is a mess, with bunch of bank officials making bad loans or out right steal from the bank and run abroad. And you don't even want me to get started on the corruption in that place. Seriously, the communist party and the political system are corrupted to the core, and the only thing protecting the political system from failing is the military and the media they control. Well, the soldiers and the average Joe are not gonna stay stupid forever and let the corrupt politicians running the country and taking advantage of everyone. Chinese history already has hundreds of examples where people stood up to the "son of heaven" (emperors), I don't think Chinese people will be afraid to stand up to today's corrupt communist party.

The important thing for Taiwan and the US to realize is that China doesn't want to and doesn't have the power to do anything drastic unless they are pushed to the edge. It will be stupid for Taiwanese to announce outright independace, that will be one sure way to push China to the edge.
 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
You mean you hope that's the scenario. You are projecting based on data which is most likely flawed. Of course I forgot to mention that if you blanketed China enough to wipe the country out, you probably create enough radiation to wipe out most of the human population.

Call it a draw then.

Wouldn't that be worth it?
As far as the data goes, I'm reasonably confident its accurate for the moment. The thing is China lacks many ballistic missiles that can hit the mainland US. This may change numbers wise in the future, but not drastically anytime soon. China simply has a rather limited nuclear long range arsenal. By contrast the US clearly has sufficient nuclear weaponry to take out all of China.

By the way, you're drastically overrating the effects of fallout from nuclear bombs as far as locations significantly far away from the blast area go. For starters, due to a desire to create more power bombs, the US's nuclear bombs of today are much more efficient than the ones used a Nagasaki and Hiroshima, converting more of their radiactivie material to energy, leaving less for the actual fallout. Most of the fallout is going over the Pacific, Japan might take some radiation, but even there the effects will be limited. The Pacific Ocean is large enough to pretty much harmlessly disperse the radioactivity that lands there. Now keep in mind how long weather patterns take to go from China to the US's West coasts, and remember this is the amount of time it should take for significant amounts of the radiactive material to land anywhere in the US.

One factor that most people don't realize about fallout is how fast it
decays. Fallout follows the t-1.2 law which states that for every sevenfold
increase in time after detonation there is a tenfold drop in radiation output.
Example, a reading of X level of radioactivity at Y hours after detonation
would indicate a level of radioactivity of .1X at 7Y hours after detonation.
This is accurate for 2,500 hours (14 weeks) following the explosion,
thereafter the doserate is lower than t-1.2 would predict. Example, if a
dose rate of 100 REM/hr was found at 1 hour after detonation(this assumes all significant fallout from the bomb has fallen, therefore starting with the
seven hour point is probably more realistic) would be 10 REM/hr at 7 hours,
1 REM/hr at 49 hours(2 days), .1 REM/hr at 343 hours(2 weeks), .01 REM/hr at2401 hours (14 weeks).
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/fallout.htm

What's particularly worth noting here is that in 49 hours, fallout's radiactivity drops to under one hundreth of what it was initially. The half-life of many nuclear bomb elements is short so they don't last for very long. On top of this, anyone receiving fallout will be receiving significantly less than one hundreth the amount China itself was initially exposed to, given the fallout is going to be dispersing and decreasing in density, and a bunch of the fallout is going to be going into the Pacific Ocean. By the time the fallout reaches the West Coast of the US, its effects are going to be quite limited.

Admitedly the US might for humanitarian reasons decided to just nuke China enough to destroy any resemblance of a coherent government and make a very firm example of them, but concerns about the worldwide effects of fallout and nuclear winter are typically highly overestimated when calculating these scenarios.

So are you saying it's OK for the US and China to start nuking each other so Taiwan can tell everyone we are an independent country? And that's Okay for 1 billion or so Chinese people to die and 15 million US people to die for Taiwanese to say that?

Seriously, what does Taiwan gain by coming out to say that we are an independent country? Are we not? We elect our own government, and have our own economy and our way of life. The only thing we are missing today is a seat in UN and to be able to wave a Taiwanese flag in Olympic.

If China invades Taiwan today, or occupies Taiwan today, I hope everyone in the world will try and help a fellow democratic country. But China is neither invading nor occupying Taiwan, they don't even have a say in how we writes our law or who we elect in our government. So what is all these independence talk that may risk the current peace and prosperity Taiwanese enjoy right now? What is all the talk of nuking someone when there isn't much to gain?

Isn?t it a smarter strategy to wait it out until the current barbaric communist party is replaced with a more civilized one, and then negotiate something so that Taiwanese people can continue to enjoy the peace and prosperity without risking an all out war?
 
Originally posted by: rchiu
So are you saying it's OK for the US and China to start nuking each other so Taiwan can tell everyone we are an independent country? And that's Okay for 1 billion or so Chinese people to die and 15 million US people to die for Taiwanese to say that?

Seriously, what does Taiwan gain by coming out to say that we are an independent country? Are we not? We elect our own government, and have our own economy and our way of life. The only thing we are missing today is a seat in UN and to be able to wave a Taiwanese flag in Olympic.

If China invades Taiwan today, or occupies Taiwan today, I hope everyone in the world will try and help a fellow democratic country.
I certainly didn't suggest that Taiwan should declare its independance today. I think from a pragmatic standpoint it would be a dubious idea, although idealistically Taiwan should have the moral right to. I AM saying the US should not let China invade Taiwan without intervening, and China's nuclear bluff should be called in this case. China knows we're not talking about Mutually Asssured Destruction in a scenario where it goes nuclear, but the US merely being hurt and China effectively being destroyed. (In case there is any confusion here I'm not Taiwanese, my heritage is actually Eastern European Jewish.)
 
Originally posted by: Carpathian Dragon
Another sign pointing towards WW3, according to this Financial Times story.
Actually I think that would be WW5, since:

WW3 = essentially, the US-Soviet territorial cold war...and it turned out not to be fought with nuclear weapons

WW4 = Bush Regime's "War on Terror" which is obviously also a global conflict fought against other countries.

so I do believe the China conflict, IF it involves other regions of the World, would be WW5.

n'est-il pas ?
 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
You mean you hope that's the scenario. You are projecting based on data which is most likely flawed. Of course I forgot to mention that if you blanketed China enough to wipe the country out, you probably create enough radiation to wipe out most of the human population.

Call it a draw then.

Wouldn't that be worth it?
As far as the data goes, I'm reasonably confident its accurate for the moment. The thing is China lacks many ballistic missiles that can hit the mainland US. This may change numbers wise in the future, but not drastically anytime soon. China simply has a rather limited nuclear long range arsenal. By contrast the US clearly has sufficient nuclear weaponry to take out all of China.

By the way, you're drastically overrating the effects of fallout from nuclear bombs as far as locations significantly far away from the blast area go. For starters, due to a desire to create more power bombs, the US's nuclear bombs of today are much more efficient than the ones used a Nagasaki and Hiroshima, converting more of their radiactivie material to energy, leaving less for the actual fallout. Most of the fallout is going over the Pacific, Japan might take some radiation, but even there the effects will be limited. The Pacific Ocean is large enough to pretty much harmlessly disperse the radioactivity that lands there. Now keep in mind how long weather patterns take to go from China to the US's West coasts, and remember this is the amount of time it should take for significant amounts of the radiactive material to land anywhere in the US.

One factor that most people don't realize about fallout is how fast it
decays. Fallout follows the t-1.2 law which states that for every sevenfold
increase in time after detonation there is a tenfold drop in radiation output.
Example, a reading of X level of radioactivity at Y hours after detonation
would indicate a level of radioactivity of .1X at 7Y hours after detonation.
This is accurate for 2,500 hours (14 weeks) following the explosion,
thereafter the doserate is lower than t-1.2 would predict. Example, if a
dose rate of 100 REM/hr was found at 1 hour after detonation(this assumes all significant fallout from the bomb has fallen, therefore starting with the
seven hour point is probably more realistic) would be 10 REM/hr at 7 hours,
1 REM/hr at 49 hours(2 days), .1 REM/hr at 343 hours(2 weeks), .01 REM/hr at2401 hours (14 weeks).
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/fallout.htm

What's particularly worth noting here is that in 49 hours, fallout's radiactivity drops to under one hundreth of what it was initially. The half-life of many nuclear bomb elements is short so they don't last for very long. On top of this, anyone receiving fallout will be receiving significantly less than one hundreth the amount China itself was initially exposed to, given the fallout is going to be dispersing and decreasing in density, and a bunch of the fallout is going to be going into the Pacific Ocean. By the time the fallout reaches the West Coast of the US, its effects are going to be quite limited.

Admitedly the US might for humanitarian reasons decided to just nuke China enough to destroy any resemblance of a coherent government and make a very firm example of them, but concerns about the worldwide effects of fallout and nuclear winter are typically highly overestimated when calculating these scenarios.

How many bombs would it take to kill 1.4 billion?
 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: rchiu
So are you saying it's OK for the US and China to start nuking each other so Taiwan can tell everyone we are an independent country? And that's Okay for 1 billion or so Chinese people to die and 15 million US people to die for Taiwanese to say that?

Seriously, what does Taiwan gain by coming out to say that we are an independent country? Are we not? We elect our own government, and have our own economy and our way of life. The only thing we are missing today is a seat in UN and to be able to wave a Taiwanese flag in Olympic.

If China invades Taiwan today, or occupies Taiwan today, I hope everyone in the world will try and help a fellow democratic country.
I certainly didn't suggest that Taiwan should declare its independance today. I think from a pragmatic standpoint it would be a dubious idea, although idealistically Taiwan should have the moral right to. I AM saying the US should not let China invade Taiwan without intervening, and China's nuclear bluff should be called in this case. China knows we're talking talking about Mutually Asssured Destruction in a scenario where it goes nuclear, but the US merely being hurt and China effectively being destroyed. (In case there is any confusion here I'm not Taiwanese, my heritage is actually Eastern European Jewish.)

I am sorry for assuming you are pro-independence Taiwanese. You are right that Taiwan should have the moral right to declare independence, I just don't think that is the smart thing to do when dealing with a government like China at the present time.

I also agree that US should not let China invade Taiwan, given that Taiwanese don't act recklessly ourselves and ask for China to come get us. Every country with conscience should not let the communist regime forcing its will on the Taiwanese people. It?s not just about protecting the Taiwanese people, but also about protecting basic human right.

Calling China's nuclear attack bluff is a fair game, as well as establishing forces around the Pacific Rim. Sometime show of force, bluff and counter bluff can prevent the actual war until one side collapse on its own, cold war being the best example. Just like USSR during the Cold War, I have a feeling that Chinese communist party isn't gonna last long as well.
 
F*ck china.

If china is gonna nuke us, they better hurry up. In another 10-20 years, we'll have enough ABM systems to more or less stop whatever they throw at us while at the same time we turn them into a smoldering wasteland.
 
China will never, ever pull a stunt like this - for a very simple reason. They know who their real master is: money.

Pull any invasion bullsh!t and the tap shuts right off. Shut that tap off, and before long the population gets unruly. They aren't about to take that risk.

Modernizing the country into becoming a real competitor on the level of first-world nations requires a liberalization of policy that would China as being a threat to the rest of the world, so that's no big deal either. You really have to be pretty obtuse to buy into the boastful statements made here and there to inspire nationalism.
 
Originally posted by: yllus
China will never, ever pull a stunt like this - for a very simple reason. They know who their real master is: money.

Pull any invasion bullsh!t and the tap shuts right off. Shut that tap off, and before long the population gets unruly. They aren't about to take that risk.

Modernizing the country into becoming a real competitor on the level of first-world nations requires a liberalization of policy that would China as being a threat to the rest of the world, so that's no big deal either. You really have to be pretty obtuse to buy into the boastful statements made here and there to inspire nationalism.

Exactly. Invasion of Taiwan isn't happened, and China would never nuke us either.
 
Ignore this small-penised threat from this official.
China is desperate for oil. They nuke us, we'll nuke em back.
Then they'll have to fight a conventional war, which they'll lose. No more oil, their war machine is ground to a halt.

But then, they'll stop shipments to WalMart.
Oh boy, we've surely lost.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: ntdz
I don't believe them...they'd never nuke us.

From what i've heard, China is willing to sacrifice a couple large cities (like Beijing). I doubt the US is prepared to do the same.

If China detonates a nuke in any city in the US, I would certainly hope the retaliation isn't just a single city or two, but the destruction of China as a country and civilization. Not that I want that, but if the example has to be set, then it has to be set right, and only once.
 
Enjoy your weekend🙂

Anyway, China has never used Depleted Uranium Bombs or left nuclear pollution in the Gulf.

Bush also threatened that US would nuke Iraq if Saddam use mass destructive weapons. Why no hot thread about that?:laugh:
 
Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Anyway, China has never used Depleted Uranium Bombs or left nuclear pollution in the Gulf.
The US has certainly not used Depleted Uranium Bombs either, such a weapon would simply suck. The reality is Depleted Uranium isn't much more dangerous than lead, people just hear the word Uranium and get hysterical. By the way, I'm sure that China DOES use depleted uranium in its own tank sabot rounds, so I really fail to see what sort of point you are attempting to make here.
 
It seems like it would be in Chinca's best interest to keep a war with the US fought on conventional terms instead of nuclear. They could mess us up with going nuclear, but we would utterly waste them. Using conventional warfare they would have a better cahnce of defeatig us. We would have to kill an awful lot of them before they would give up. We just don't have that many people to draw upon.
 
Originally posted by: Lovepig
We would have to kill an awful lot of them before they would give up. We just don't have that many people to draw upon.
If we're talking about stopping China from invading Taiwan its not that hard. We simply need to sink their transports, its simply not possible to swim the straits. It doesn't matter how many men China has left if they can't get them to Taiwan. Taiwan has an 1.7 million men army when you include their reserves, so China has to move over a very large number of men to take the island.
 
quote:
The US has certainly not used Deplete Uranium Bombs either, such a weapon would simply suck. The reality is Depleted Uranium isn't much more dangerous than lead, people just hear the word Uranium and get hysterical. By the way, I'm sure that China DOES use depleted uranium in its own tank sabot rounds, so I really fail to see what sort of point you are attempting to make here.
-------------------------

Yes. Many debates about the harm of Deplete Uranium Bombs. You are not a scientist authority. Have you heard some articles about the Gulf Syndrome
http://www.cadu.org.uk/

Anyway, if US uses Deplete Uranium Bombs to attack China, it would be obviously viewed as a nuclear attack.
 
And let me tell you some current basic policy lines:

"Indeed, compared with other Nuclear Weapon States (NWS), China is the only state that has made, and still abides by, a commitment to never be the first to use nuclear weapons at any time or under any circumstance. China has also undertaken unconditionally not to use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against Non-Nuclear Weapon States (NNWS) or in Nuclear Weapon-Free Zones (NWFZs)."

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1370971

General Zhu's words reflects debates and quarrels among the think tank.
 
Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Yes. Many debates about the harm of Deplete Uranium Bombs. You are not a scientist authority. Have you heard some articles about the Gulf Syndrome
http://www.cadu.org.uk/

Anyway, if US uses Deplete Uranium Bombs to attack China, it would be obviously viewed as a nuclear attack.
There is no such thing as a Depleted Uranium Bomb! Gulf War Syndrome is generally viewed and coming from other sources as not DU at this point. Depleted uranium is used in the US for its specific purpose as a hard penetrator, specifically for the sabot rounds in US tanks and the ammunition for the main gun of the A-10 Warthog, which is designed to be a tank destroyer. It also apparently is used in the M1-A2s armor, with the goal of making it stronger, but that is mostly a risk to the crew inside the tank if it gets hit if its possibly going to affect anyone. Its not used for weapons in general. I also know its used for the sabot rounds in Chinese tanks at least, so clearly using it in China would not be considered a nuclear attack, (its use doesn't even vaguely resemble that) and it would be silly for China to complain when its own forces are using the exact same material.

Edit: If someone questions the claim that China produces DU rounds which are ready for use, here's a source that also gives you an idea of how many countries use them.
DU munitions (in the form of tank and naval artillery rounds) are also deployed by the armed forces of the UK, Israel, France, Japan, China, Russia, Pakistan, and many more. DU rounds are manufactured in 18 countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Depleted-uranium
 
The reality is Depleted Uranium isn't much more dangerous than lead, people just hear the word Uranium and get hysterical
---------------------------------------------
Not be so certain. Many scientists debates about the harm of Depleted Uranium.
A lot of articles and reports here.
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm

UK And US has already used Depleted Uranium Shell in the war, not just tank sabot.
http://www.sundayherald.com/32522

Yes. Many countries has made experiments about Depleted Uranium sabot, because it is cheap and solid. However, China would not risk the health and lives of its soldiers and civilians. As long as there are many suspects against the nuclear pollution from DU, Depleted Uranium should not be massively used in the war. It is morally "illegal" and unhuman.

Nuclear weapons are not conventional weapons. They have the characters of "dirty" and "unlaundered". It harms civilians most, and for many years. No winner in a nuke war that nuclear weapons are massively used.
If that happend, only those "chosen" ones could enjoy their weekend in the last refuges under the earth surface.
 
Originally posted by: Chinadefender
Yes. Many countries has made experiments about Depleted Uranium sabot, because it is cheap and solid. However, China would not risk the health and lives of its soldiers and civilians. As long as there are many suspects against the nuclear pollution from DU, Depleted Uranium should not be massively used in the war. It is morally "illegal" and unhuman.

Nuclear weapons are not conventional weapons. They have the characters of "dirty" and "unlaundered". It harms civilians most, and for many years.
China has DU rounds as its primary tank ammo for use against hard targets, it would certainly use them in any military conflict. Its simply funny that you are bringing this up as proof the US is worse than China. No rational human being would call DU a nuclear weapon. Its simply not all that much more radioactive than lead, and frankly reputable studies have consistantly shown it doesn't do anything. The only effect may be inhaled dust among soldier immediately after its use, but the primary problem in this case appears to be its toxic effects as a heavy metal, not its radioactivity.
 
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