China removes Yuan's peg to the Dollar

[Chinadefender]

I have said that China might peg to a basket of currency soon.

I think the risk-free rate in US might increase a bit. It is a good time to sell short US treasuries.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Vic
This is bad, not good. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

BINGO.

Several articles that I've read (including the one that I quoted above) hint at the same things Vic. Seems that this could hurt the US far more than it would ever help (even the trade deficit will be hurt).

how will the trade deficit be hurt? Depreciation of dollar in terms of yuan means higheer exports TO china (our good are relatively cheaper) and lower imports FROM china (their stuff is getting more expensive)

As far as gas prices go, welcome to the global marketplace. Us has rediculously cheap gas in comparison to europe and rest of the world. And it's not the dollar weakening that makes it rise, but global demand (especially from china).

<- econ major, currently working on wall st.

Oil prices directly effect the trade deficit as oil is imported. It is probably the largest portion of our trade deficit. Oil goes up, so goes the trade deficit.

If US consumers don't slow down on the pace of Chinese goods, even at higher prices, so goes the trade deficit.

I can't really think that China is going to buy more US goods and services because of a better price as we can't compete with anything that they produce now because of the labor rate.

China will have increased purchasing power for oil. Oil is priced in US dollars. Increased purchasing by China will drive oil prices up. Also, as Vic said, the lowered value of the dollar has hurt the OPEC countries/traders and a big part of the current price of oil is reflected in this "upping" of oil prices to offset the weaker dollar (OPEC/traders aren't going to lose money).

I see it the way Vic and many others see it....it won't increase our exporting much, won't slow our importing much, will cause higher trade deficits because of higher oil prices, will hit us with higher interest rates to attract foreign investment in our government (budget deficit).

I really can't see how we would win in this situtation, but time will tell.

umm in 2004 we imported $200 bil dollars worth of good and services to china and exported some $ 35 bill

the net imports of oil are some $99 bil.

Trade with china alone is more than double of what the oil imports are. Not to mention that oil demand is very price inelastic in short run.

There have been studies showing that the demand only starts chaning after ~10 years or so. I mean it's not like chinese people are gonna go "wow gas is on sale, ill take two tank fulls"

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Vic
This is bad, not good. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

BINGO.

Several articles that I've read (including the one that I quoted above) hint at the same things Vic. Seems that this could hurt the US far more than it would ever help (even the trade deficit will be hurt).

how will the trade deficit be hurt? Depreciation of dollar in terms of yuan means higheer exports TO china (our good are relatively cheaper) and lower imports FROM china (their stuff is getting more expensive)

As far as gas prices go, welcome to the global marketplace. Us has rediculously cheap gas in comparison to europe and rest of the world. And it's not the dollar weakening that makes it rise, but global demand (especially from china).

<- econ major, currently working on wall st.

Oil prices directly effect the trade deficit as oil is imported. It is probably the largest portion of our trade deficit. Oil goes up, so goes the trade deficit.

If US consumers don't slow down on the pace of Chinese goods, even at higher prices, so goes the trade deficit.

I can't really think that China is going to buy more US goods and services because of a better price as we can't compete with anything that they produce now because of the labor rate.

China will have increased purchasing power for oil. Oil is priced in US dollars. Increased purchasing by China will drive oil prices up. Also, as Vic said, the lowered value of the dollar has hurt the OPEC countries/traders and a big part of the current price of oil is reflected in this "upping" of oil prices to offset the weaker dollar (OPEC/traders aren't going to lose money).

I see it the way Vic and many others see it....it won't increase our exporting much, won't slow our importing much, will cause higher trade deficits because of higher oil prices, will hit us with higher interest rates to attract foreign investment in our government (budget deficit).

I really can't see how we would win in this situtation, but time will tell.

umm in 2004 we imported $200 bil dollars worth of good and services to china and exported some $ 35 bill

the net imports of oil are some $99 bil.

Trade with china alone is more than double of what the oil imports are. Not to mention that oil demand is very price inelastic in short run.

There have been studies showing that the demand only starts chaning after ~10 years or so. I mean it's not like chinese people are gonna go "wow gas is on sale, ill take two tank fulls"

China has already expresses desire to build a 3 billion barrel strategic oil reserve for themselves. Compared to our 700 million barrel that took 30 years to fill, that's pretty big. If they can buy it cheaper, then they're going to. Our trade deficit will increase one way or another. Our purchasing power will go down abroad as the dollar weakens and at home as interest rates are pumped up to keep the deficits happy.


I also understand that China's economy is very closely tied to the US economy as the US economy takes so many of their exports. It's something to keep in mind.

By the way, the US imports about 50% of it's oil now and uses, on average, 21 million barrels per day. Doing the math at $57.00 per barrell, that's rougly 218 billion in trade deficit this year, give or take a few billion. Seems pretty high to me.

Edit: It's up to 55% now, so add 20 billion to that figure.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Vic
This is bad, not good. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

BINGO.

Several articles that I've read (including the one that I quoted above) hint at the same things Vic. Seems that this could hurt the US far more than it would ever help (even the trade deficit will be hurt).

how will the trade deficit be hurt? Depreciation of dollar in terms of yuan means higheer exports TO china (our good are relatively cheaper) and lower imports FROM china (their stuff is getting more expensive)

As far as gas prices go, welcome to the global marketplace. Us has rediculously cheap gas in comparison to europe and rest of the world. And it's not the dollar weakening that makes it rise, but global demand (especially from china).

<- econ major, currently working on wall st.

Oil prices directly effect the trade deficit as oil is imported. It is probably the largest portion of our trade deficit. Oil goes up, so goes the trade deficit.

If US consumers don't slow down on the pace of Chinese goods, even at higher prices, so goes the trade deficit.

I can't really think that China is going to buy more US goods and services because of a better price as we can't compete with anything that they produce now because of the labor rate.

China will have increased purchasing power for oil. Oil is priced in US dollars. Increased purchasing by China will drive oil prices up. Also, as Vic said, the lowered value of the dollar has hurt the OPEC countries/traders and a big part of the current price of oil is reflected in this "upping" of oil prices to offset the weaker dollar (OPEC/traders aren't going to lose money).

I see it the way Vic and many others see it....it won't increase our exporting much, won't slow our importing much, will cause higher trade deficits because of higher oil prices, will hit us with higher interest rates to attract foreign investment in our government (budget deficit).

I really can't see how we would win in this situtation, but time will tell.

umm in 2004 we imported $200 bil dollars worth of good and services to china and exported some $ 35 bill

the net imports of oil are some $99 bil.

Trade with china alone is more than double of what the oil imports are. Not to mention that oil demand is very price inelastic in short run.

There have been studies showing that the demand only starts chaning after ~10 years or so. I mean it's not like chinese people are gonna go "wow gas is on sale, ill take two tank fulls"

China has already expresses desire to build a 3 billion barrel strategic oil reserve for themselves. Compared to our 700 million barrel that took 30 years to fill, that's pretty big. If they can buy it cheaper, then they're going to. Our trade deficit will increase one way or another. Our purchasing power will go down abroad as the dollar weakens and at home as interest rates are pumped up to keep the deficits happy.

hmm interesting, i havent heard of that. A lot of the demand/price increases in oil prices were due to china, so it doesn't suprise me that much. You're right about the interest rates though, it puts a lot of inflationary pressure on the currency, so fed is more or less forced to keep rising the rates. However higher rates will result in stronger USD due to foreign investment infow.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Vic
This is bad, not good. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

BINGO.

Several articles that I've read (including the one that I quoted above) hint at the same things Vic. Seems that this could hurt the US far more than it would ever help (even the trade deficit will be hurt).

how will the trade deficit be hurt? Depreciation of dollar in terms of yuan means higheer exports TO china (our good are relatively cheaper) and lower imports FROM china (their stuff is getting more expensive)

As far as gas prices go, welcome to the global marketplace. Us has rediculously cheap gas in comparison to europe and rest of the world. And it's not the dollar weakening that makes it rise, but global demand (especially from china).

<- econ major, currently working on wall st.

Oil prices directly effect the trade deficit as oil is imported. It is probably the largest portion of our trade deficit. Oil goes up, so goes the trade deficit.

If US consumers don't slow down on the pace of Chinese goods, even at higher prices, so goes the trade deficit.

I can't really think that China is going to buy more US goods and services because of a better price as we can't compete with anything that they produce now because of the labor rate.

China will have increased purchasing power for oil. Oil is priced in US dollars. Increased purchasing by China will drive oil prices up. Also, as Vic said, the lowered value of the dollar has hurt the OPEC countries/traders and a big part of the current price of oil is reflected in this "upping" of oil prices to offset the weaker dollar (OPEC/traders aren't going to lose money).

I see it the way Vic and many others see it....it won't increase our exporting much, won't slow our importing much, will cause higher trade deficits because of higher oil prices, will hit us with higher interest rates to attract foreign investment in our government (budget deficit).

I really can't see how we would win in this situtation, but time will tell.

umm in 2004 we imported $200 bil dollars worth of good and services to china and exported some $ 35 bill

the net imports of oil are some $99 bil.

Trade with china alone is more than double of what the oil imports are. Not to mention that oil demand is very price inelastic in short run.

There have been studies showing that the demand only starts chaning after ~10 years or so. I mean it's not like chinese people are gonna go "wow gas is on sale, ill take two tank fulls"

China has already expresses desire to build a 3 billion barrel strategic oil reserve for themselves. Compared to our 700 million barrel that took 30 years to fill, that's pretty big. If they can buy it cheaper, then they're going to. Our trade deficit will increase one way or another. Our purchasing power will go down abroad as the dollar weakens and at home as interest rates are pumped up to keep the deficits happy.

hmm interesting, i havent heard of that. A lot of the demand/price increases in oil prices were due to china, so it doesn't suprise me that much. You're right about the interest rates though, it puts a lot of inflationary pressure on the currency, so fed is more or less forced to keep rising the rates. However higher rates will result in stronger USD due to foreign investment infow.

It may help the USD become stronger, but it could also push up budget deficits adding to the picture. The twin deficits are slowly cutting the US at the seams. Seems that we can't fix one without effecting the other, and visa versa. Our dependence on foreign products and investement (i.e. loans) have really hurt us. Losing one of the "yearly" deficits (probably easier to fix budget deficit at this point) would go a long way to help our economy and financial strength around the world (IMO).

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Clinton is responsible for this.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: ironwing
The combination of crony capitalism, nationalism, and single party control is better described as fascism.

Sounds just like here.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic
This is Good, not bad. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

Fixed for you.

Now the Republicans will not be able to get away with their Lies anymore. :thumbsup:

...what lies? I think this is good too.

I thought so at one time also, but have sinced "flip-flopped". Why do you think this is good?

The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

Yep. Because our entire economy needs to crash and millions need to starve and be made homeless just so Dave can have his political agenda. :roll:

You're far far more evil than any Republican or even GW himself, Dave. Just thought you should know.

 

[drewshin]

Originally posted by: ntdz
The dollar has devalued how much over the last 3 years? What has inflation been? Nearly nothing?

Who cares, I hope they keep buying our debt. Buying of our 30 year bonds is one of the worst investments you can make, and China is making it. They will see almost no return on their money with inflation included.

Wow, your lack of knowledge on this issue is really showing.

First, you state that inflation over the last 10 years is practically nothing (FALSE).
Then you say that the chinese will see almost no return on their 30 year bond investments (which are currently yielding around 4.5%) because of inflation. So inflation has to meet or exceed 4.5% a year for them not to make any returns LOL. Make up your mind man!

 

[drewshin]

This move by itself won't help any. Even Greenspan has stated the same. Our trade deficit with China will decrease slightly, but trade deficits with other countries will increase - mainly China's competitors like Thailand, as companies will find slightly cheaper goods to import from those countries.

It will create very very few jobs and exports. If for example a garment worker here in the US makes $10 an hour, and their counterpart in effect just got a raise from say $2.00 to $2.50 an hour, do you think companies will suddenly change over to American made? No, they will either suck up the cost, find a cheaper foreign importer, or pass the increase along to the consumer.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: drewshin
This move by itself won't help any. Even Greenspan has stated the same. Our trade deficit with China will decrease slightly, but trade deficits with other countries will increase - mainly China's competitors like Thailand, as companies will find slightly cheaper goods to import from those countries.

It will create very very few jobs and exports. If for example a garment worker here in the US makes $10 an hour, and their counterpart in effect just got a raise from say $2.00 to $2.50 an hour, do you think companies will suddenly change over to American made? No, they will either suck up the cost, find a cheaper foreign importer, or pass the increase along to the consumer.

Realistically the 'Raise' to the worker in China would be the equivalent of going from $ 100 per month to $ 102 a month -
thats a whopping 50 cents more per week, what will you purchase now that you get $ 25.50 a week instead of $ 25 ?
Only trouble is that the worker in China dosen't get that huge raise, the Government gets it to purchase more US based capital.
The average worker in China makes less per week than a US worker spends on gas for their car or SUV.

Won't be long before the Chinese Auto Industry has a 'Bejing Inscrutable' on the market here -
and drives the nail deeper into the coffin cover of Detroits auto industry.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: Vic
This is bad, not good. The dollar will devalue further, increasing inflation and raising interest rates. T-bonds took a dump today... the 10 year is off 30/32nds. That has a nearly direct correlation with mortgage rates -- they just went up more than an 1/8th in rate today. And the Fed is certain to raise the discount rate again, and that will have a direct effect on consumer loan rates. A lot more going on here than just your precious Wal-Mart, people.

BINGO.

Several articles that I've read (including the one that I quoted above) hint at the same things Vic. Seems that this could hurt the US far more than it would ever help (even the trade deficit will be hurt).

how will the trade deficit be hurt? Depreciation of dollar in terms of yuan means higheer exports TO china (our good are relatively cheaper) and lower imports FROM china (their stuff is getting more expensive)

As far as gas prices go, welcome to the global marketplace. Us has rediculously cheap gas in comparison to europe and rest of the world. And it's not the dollar weakening that makes it rise, but global demand (especially from china).

<- econ major, currently working on wall st.

Oil prices directly effect the trade deficit as oil is imported. It is probably the largest portion of our trade deficit. Oil goes up, so goes the trade deficit.

If US consumers don't slow down on the pace of Chinese goods, even at higher prices, so goes the trade deficit.

I can't really think that China is going to buy more US goods and services because of a better price as we can't compete with anything that they produce now because of the labor rate.

China will have increased purchasing power for oil. Oil is priced in US dollars. Increased purchasing by China will drive oil prices up. Also, as Vic said, the lowered value of the dollar has hurt the OPEC countries/traders and a big part of the current price of oil is reflected in this "upping" of oil prices to offset the weaker dollar (OPEC/traders aren't going to lose money).

I see it the way Vic and many others see it....it won't increase our exporting much, won't slow our importing much, will cause higher trade deficits because of higher oil prices, will hit us with higher interest rates to attract foreign investment in our government (budget deficit).

I really can't see how we would win in this situtation, but time will tell.

umm in 2004 we imported $200 bil dollars worth of good and services to china and exported some $ 35 bill

the net imports of oil are some $99 bil.

Trade with china alone is more than double of what the oil imports are. Not to mention that oil demand is very price inelastic in short run.

There have been studies showing that the demand only starts chaning after ~10 years or so. I mean it's not like chinese people are gonna go "wow gas is on sale, ill take two tank fulls"

China has already expresses desire to build a 3 billion barrel strategic oil reserve for themselves. Compared to our 700 million barrel that took 30 years to fill, that's pretty big. If they can buy it cheaper, then they're going to. Our trade deficit will increase one way or another. Our purchasing power will go down abroad as the dollar weakens and at home as interest rates are pumped up to keep the deficits happy.

hmm interesting, i havent heard of that. A lot of the demand/price increases in oil prices were due to china, so it doesn't suprise me that much. You're right about the interest rates though, it puts a lot of inflationary pressure on the currency, so fed is more or less forced to keep rising the rates. However higher rates will result in stronger USD due to foreign investment infow.

It may help the USD become stronger, but it could also push up budget deficits adding to the picture. The twin deficits are slowly cutting the US at the seams. Seems that we can't fix one without effecting the other, and visa versa. Our dependence on foreign products and investement (i.e. loans) have really hurt us. Losing one of the "yearly" deficits (probably easier to fix budget deficit at this point) would go a long way to help our economy and financial strength around the world (IMO).

actually you've got the relationship backwards. Budget deficit is what creates the inflationary pressures, so fed has to reduce the money supply (raise int rates) to fend of future inflation (inflation is self - fulfiling... if expected in future, it will happen now). Higher interest rates will bring foreing investment, which makes dollar stronger.

Like Greenspan said, we do need to reduce the budget deficits, because otherwise the rates will keep going up.

 

[irwincur]

I think people here are overestimating the condition of the Chinese economy and their overall economic power worldwide. With CAFTA going into effect, China is looking at losing a lot of manufacturing to South America. Shipping is cheaper and QC is much easier to manage.

China is poised on the edge of economic collapse. You cannot grow at 9% per year forever, and when it ends, it will be big. Incidentally, this will also probably spell the end of the Communist leadership, as well as the adversity based nature of the Chinese government. There is more success to be had worldwide as a major trading partner with the West than their enemy.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Cars

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: irwincur
I think people here are overestimating the condition of the Chinese economy and their overall economic power worldwide. With CAFTA going into effect, China is looking at losing a lot of manufacturing to South America. Shipping is cheaper and QC is much easier to manage.

China is poised on the edge of economic collapse. You cannot grow at 9% per year forever, and when it ends, it will be big. Incidentally, this will also probably spell the end of the Communist leadership, as well as the adversity based nature of the Chinese government. There is more success to be had worldwide as a major trading partner with the West than their enemy.

I agree, I think China is totally overblown by a lot of people, and that it's really not that big of a threat to us. Cheap manufactoring is easy to find, China isn't the only source. We don't need them, they need us. We can easily get the cheap little crap products from other countries, rather than China. They are hardpressed to find another country that is able, and will, buy up their products.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

Yep. Because our entire economy needs to crash and millions need to starve and be made homeless just so Dave can have his political agenda. :roll:

You're far far more evil than any Republican or even GW himself, Dave. Just thought you should know.

Interesting that you would call looking out for the Country's best interest as evil and an agenda.

So Patriotism is evil now according to Republicans.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

Yep. Because our entire economy needs to crash and millions need to starve and be made homeless just so Dave can have his political agenda. :roll:

You're far far more evil than any Republican or even GW himself, Dave. Just thought you should know.

Interesting that you would call looking out for the Country's best interest as evil and an agenda.

So Patriotism is evil now according to Republicans.

'Cause that's what I said, right asshole? :roll:<^>

Because what you said is that destroying the country is in the "best intrest" of the country. Yeah, right... of course, it's not. It's in YOUR best intrest, and nothing more.

Seek professional psychiatric help before it's too late, Dave. If it isn't already.

btw, you paranoid idiot... I'm not a Republican.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

Yep. Because our entire economy needs to crash and millions need to starve and be made homeless just so Dave can have his political agenda. :roll:

You're far far more evil than any Republican or even GW himself, Dave. Just thought you should know.

Interesting that you would call looking out for the Country's best interest as evil and an agenda.

So Patriotism is evil now according to Republicans.

'Cause that's what I said, right asshole? :roll:<^>

Because what you said is that destroying the country is in the "best intrest" of the country. Yeah, right... of course, it's not. It's in YOUR best intrest, and nothing more.

Seek professional psychiatric help before it's too late, Dave. If it isn't already.

btw, you paranoid idiot... I'm not a Republican.

Really hes not.

But beware! Hes far more soul-less than them :Q

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Economy is propped up on Republican Lies.

Take away the Lies and it is nearly as bad as the depression as far as wages Vs cola.

It needs to fully crash for people to wake up and see the Republican Lies for what they have been.

Yep. Because our entire economy needs to crash and millions need to starve and be made homeless just so Dave can have his political agenda. :roll:

You're far far more evil than any Republican or even GW himself, Dave. Just thought you should know.

Interesting that you would call looking out for the Country's best interest as evil and an agenda.

So Patriotism is evil now according to Republicans.

'Cause that's what I said, right asshole? :roll:<^>

Because what you said is that destroying the country is in the "best intrest" of the country. Yeah, right... of course, it's not. It's in YOUR best intrest, and nothing more.

Seek professional psychiatric help before it's too late, Dave. If it isn't already.

btw, you paranoid idiot... I'm not a Republican.

Really hes not.

But beware! Hes far more soul-less than them :Q

Right... that's because you believe that freedom is slavery, and that slavery is freedom. You also believe that murder is love. I'm well aware of this about you, so it's no wonder you would libel me (though I think your self-denial, like Dave's, prevents you from seeing your words as the lies that they are). Allow me to assist your logic: A != non-A. Always.

 

[ZDStout]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Clinton is responsible for this.

Putting the blame on just one person won't work in this case, even if he was president for 8 years. The blame lies at everyone's feet. We've come to rely on other countries for goods, and now it's coming back to haunt us.