China poised to blow by US in science, engineering and more....

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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For your questions, I think ANY solution that stops the outsourcing costs less than it saves. Look at our trade deficit; we're hemorrhaging money every single month. Worse, we're increasingly (and artificially) expanding the gap between rich and poor by artificially lowering the value of labor, both by unrestrained immigration and by outsourcing. That might not have as much of an apparent cost - although the trade deficit is one cost of making the rich richer - so much as introducing risk. Wealth is relative, and the larger the numbers of relatively poor people, and the larger that perceived gap, the more risk of revolution. That can be bloody, but it can also be a civil slide into Marxism. Either way we lose as a society.

Trade deficits are a tricky thing. The common way of thinking, is that if you are buying more than you are selling, you will eventually run out, and have to either stop buying, or start borrowing. This is not true in the economic world. It is true that if nominally dollars did not increase, that the former would happen. We do not live in that world. We live in a fiat money world where the value of our currency is for the most part pegged to the value of its economy. The US is constantly creating more value to the world. If the money supply were to stay the same, you would have constant deflation, but we dont. The reason for this is the constant increase of the money supply.(I wont go into the side effects of inflation by over production, as its a separate issue to globalization.)
So, while the US is explicitly in a nominal trade deficit, the real question is are we in a real trade deficit. There is also the issue of what happens to the liquid capital that we are sending abroad. A vary large chunk of that money comes back into the US as investment.

Now, I should be clear and say that I do believe we are in a real trade deficit, because the US government has found it far easier to keep current levels of spending by borrowing, vs explicitly increasing taxes. Again, that is another issue all together.

Now, onto to immigration and outsourcing. The argument is that these are bad, as cheap labor is now competing with more expensive labor. I dont think the issue you are putting forth is one of skilled vs unskilled in relation to labor, as they would be in different markets.

So, does immigration hurt the economy? Well, it does if its contained in a state structure that pays for the immigrants. That is the structure we live in, for better or worse, and its not likely to change. The question then becomes, what is the least costly way to deal with this issue? My answer is to let in people who want to work. Fighting immigration is very expensive, and always will be. The expense is far greater than the savings it brings. Yes, low skilled labor will be pushed down, but again, I dont think that can be stopped. What you want are those people to work their way up, and command higher wages. With that, you increase productivity and thus it becomes a net benefit. In this way, it becomes an investment that turns into a net benefit. This also applies to outsourcing, even if it takes longer. The short term will be a negative, but the long term is a net positive. China is a great example of this trend. They are buying ever more from not only the US, but things around the world. That demand is being met globally and that is becoming a benefit to the world. The middle class of China is booming and they are starting to demand more and more goods/services. The US among others will meet this demand and be better off.

As for wealth being relative, you are correct. Not only is it relative to others, but to the past. Compared to the past, the poor of today are far better off than the poor of the previous 10 years, and it only looks better as you go back. I do believe that some of the wealth at the top has been at the expense of the lower classes, but that does not have to do with globalization, but I am more than willing to talk about it in a different post, as this one is quite long. I do agree that right or wrong, people get angry when the top grows faster than they do.


For the second question, yes, tariffs have a negative effect, but also positive effects. Import tariffs protect the value of labor, and in a society valuing Western secular values, that's a very important thing because it directly protects the middle class. The poor are largely going to vote for whomever credibly promises them the most loot because they are poor; their needs tend to over-weigh their principles. If one cannot be assured of having enough food for the kids, then foreign policy or fiscal policy or gay marriage must needs take a distant back seat to getting that food, period. This is not good, even if it's cheap in the short run.

This is where opportunity cost start to come into play. By "protecting" the labor, you are increasing the price of the labor. The argument is always that by protecting aka keeping the price of that labor high, we are better off, because those jobs bring money to people who spend. The desired effect is even greater when applied to the middle class. That money is then a multiplier and makes everyone better off.

So, tariff has the effect of establishing a minimum wage independent to the productivity relative to the global market. So, instead of capital flowing to other goods/services, its now tied up in those jobs that have been artificially kept high. This means there is less money to go into other sectors that could create jobs. This is supposedly offset by the net multiplier effect that the higher wages brings to the economy. That might be true, up until innovation happens and the US is left behind.

A great example of this is the auto industry in the us post 1960. Global innovation was happening and the US auto industry did not get the feedback because the US auto market is isolated. The US auto manufactures kept making cars that the US market wanted, and the US market could only buy cars the had around. Tariffs kept out foreign cars for the most part. It was not until the 1980s that things really hit the fan. The US cars were way behind the demand. We no longer produced cars that the world wanted, and suddenly, the tariff was not enough to keep out foreign cars. The industry here was caught off guard, and had losses. It then had to cut many jobs to stay alive. We never fully recovered, and its why our auto industry is not the powerhouse it once was. All because we created an artificial market that could not be sustained.

Im going to stop here, only because this went way longer than I thought it would, and Im sure people can respond and break this apart so I can then reply to that.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
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Before china becomes number 1, it will need to take care more urgent needs/problems and they won't be cheap or easy = http://www.buzzfeed.com/maceyjforonda/shocking-photographs-of-pollutions-toll-on-china


Oh, and by china own government data, chinese patents are pretty bad/shitty:

By China’s own scorekeeping, though, the country’s innovators still have a way to go before they can meet the Communist Party’s expectations. While the number of patent applications inside China is “booming,” according to a report today by Xinhua, “the quality of patents is still poor.” Writing about a report to the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress, China’s rubber-stamp legislature, Xinhua added, “China owns very few patents featuring originality and high or core technology.” Fewer than 1,000 Chinese patents have won recognition from counterparts in the U.S., Europe, or Japan, added Xinhua.

http://www.businessweek.com/article...ernment-admits-chinese-patents-are-pretty-bad
 
Last edited:
Nov 25, 2013
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I dunno, if you're on aid, I think that there should be hefty penalties if you have kids (if you have kids before aid, fine. If you get preggers/become a dad while on aid, the kid is puut up for adoption and you take a hit on your aid. If it happens again, your tubes are tied or your aid is gone.)

The victims here are the kids who grow up malnourished.

So, you just proposed that the government seize children from their parent(s) and farm them out to someone else as well as forced sterilization of the parent(s).

Congratulations. I'm sure you've won something for that.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
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So, you just proposed that the government seize children from their parent(s) and farm them out to someone else as well as forced sterilization of the parent(s).

Congratulations. I'm sure you've won something for that.

Seize, yes. Farm? No. It's called adoption. Also, I said something about tying tubes. That's not sterilization. Congrats, you failed at reading (again).
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
While punishing irresponsible parents appeals to me viscerally, I don't see practically how we can do that without inuring the children or empowering government to decide the proper number of children for each individual to have. As we've seen in these forums, should government get that power I suspect we'll see a lot more welfare children and a lot fewer bankers' children.

You do it properly by saying that being on federal aid, all children are taken at birth (while on aid) and placed up for adoption by a family that will be able to raise the child without undue financial stress. You need say nothing about limiting the number of children you can have (however, I would love to limit that worldwide and drop out worldwide population back down to something below 6 billion.)
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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Seize, yes. Farm? No. It's called adoption. Also, I said something about tying tubes. That's not sterilization. Congrats, you failed at reading (again).

Tubal ligation or tubectomy (also known as having one's "tubes tied" (ligation)) is a surgical procedure for sterilization in which a woman's fallopian tubes are clamped and blocked, or severed and sealed, either method of which prevents eggs from reaching the uterus for fertilization. Tubal ligation is considered a permanent method of sterilization and birth control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubal_ligation

So, once more with feeling. You are proposing the forced seizure of babies from their parents and "adopting" them out and proposing sterilization of, at least, the mothers.

Again, congratulations.