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China Expands. Europe Rises. And the United States . . .

BBond

Diamond Member
China Expands. Europe Rises. And the United States . . .

By FRED KAPLAN

Published: December 26, 2004

IT'S a risky business to predict the decline of the American empire. Ask Paul Kennedy, the Yale historian, who issued such a forecast in his 1987 book, "The Rise and Fall of Great Powers," only to witness an almost immediate American resurgence.

Yet the signposts, at the end of this year, are ominous. As an economic power, the United States no longer sets the rules, much less rule the game. As a military power, it vastly outguns the rest of the world, but has a harder time translating armed might into influence.

On March 1, the European Union announced that it was raising import tariffs on a long list of American products, and would go on raising them each month until Congress repealed a subsidy for American exporters that had been ruled illegal by the World Trade Organization. Congressmen railed against this intrusion but finally gave in. Americans realized that, in the global economy they largely created and for 60 years dominated, they could no longer do whatever they wanted.

Last month, China's president, Hu Jintao, embarked on a 12-day tour of Latin America, and wound up making commitments to invest $30 billion in the region. China is now Brazil's second largest trading partner and Chile's largest export market. In trade, technology, investment, education and culture, China has been displacing the United States all across Asia, and is now starting to do the same in America's backyard.

There is nothing necessarily alarming about an expansive China or an emergent Europe, except perhaps that they coincide with a growing American dependence on both.

The United States government spent $650 billion more this year than it raised in revenue, and financed the deficit largely by borrowing from foreign central banks, mainly those of Japan and China. They have been willing creditors because American consumers send much of the money right back by purchasing foreign-made products. It's a neat balancing act, to a point. But the American accumulated debt to foreign investors has now swelled to $3.3 trillion - 28 percent of gross domestic product, nearly double the share of four years ago.

In the 1990's, the United States admonished Mexico and Argentina to get their economic houses in order. This month, the Chinese premier gave Washington a strikingly similar lecture.

These imbalances are not inherently disastrous. The Chinese get something out of the deal, a ready consumer market for their overheated production lines. If they stop lending to the United States, it would cause a deep recession here, but then Americans could not buy as many of their goods, and the recession would ricochet right back to Asia.

It's a variation on the old joke: If you owe the bank $1 billion, the bank owns you; if you owe the bank $1 trillion, you own the bank.

But what if another trillion-dollar customer walked into the bank? The bankers might be more willing to foreclose on the debtor, knowing that they could pick up business from the new tycoon.

The European Union, in many respects, is looking more and more like this new tycoon. Its currency, the euro, has risen in value by 35 percent against the dollar in the last three years.

Again, that is not necessarily bad. In theory, a falling dollar makes American exports cheaper, attracting demand that then boosts the dollar; a rising euro crimps European exports, which then lowers the euro; equilibrium is restored. In reality, this process unfolds slowly and shakily: in October, for instance, American exports rose, but American imports soared, too.

A more serious consequence of the dollar's fall is that the euro has become more rewarding for foreign investors, and they are reacting accordingly. In 2001, Middle Eastern oil-producing countries kept 75 percent of their currency reserves in dollars; now the figure is 61 percent, with much of the rest in euros. Chinese and Russian central bankers are also shifting reserves. This trend, at some point, could set off a spiral: the dollar declines, causing further sell-offs, leading to a further decline, and so on.

When the dollar has fallen in the past, the United States was a net creditor and there was no serious rival currency. Neither condition holds true now. As The Economist recently put it, "Never before has the guardian of the world's main reserve currency been its biggest net debtor."

Financiers and diplomats are beginning to ask: How much longer will the dollar remain the world's principal reserve currency? One could also ask, how much longer can the United States remain, as Madeleine Albright put it, "the indispensable country" of world politics?

This year, the United States spent nearly as much on its military as all other countries combined. No other nation possesses, or aspires to, anything like the reach of American armed forces.

Yet, if someday the United States finds that it can no longer count on foreigners to bankroll its deficits, it may also find that it can no longer afford a globe-spanning military. The war in Iraq has already stretched America's forces to the limit. In the 1970's and 1980's, when Pentagon strategists spoke of a two-front war, they envisioned having to fight simultaneously in, say, Germany and Korea. Today, they mean Mosul and Falluja.

About 40 percent of the American troops in Iraq are from the National Guard and Reserves, "weekend warriors" who never figured on serving long combat tours. As a result, Guard recruitment has fallen by 30 percent. If there is no large Guard and Reserve, there is no large Army. In short, not only has the Iraq war been harder than many imagined, it has also made going to war elsewhere a less practical option - and a less credible threat.

The economic trends are worrisome because they stem not just from market forces but also from politics. As T. R. Reid notes in his new book "The United States of Europe," the euro "was specifically designed to challenge the global hegemony of the dollar." Similarly, China's rivalry with the United States in Asia and Latin America isn't a side effect of economics; it's an explicit ambition.

These challenges will take decades to unfold, and may not succeed. China may recoil from its manufacturing boom and its excesses; Europeans could revert to age-old continental tensions. The United States may revive itself through changes in policy.

Meanwhile, power is not transferring so much as dispersing. It may turn out, if trends continue, that no country or bloc of countries possesses the combination of economic and military power needed to reward the good, deter or punish the bad and impose international rules, order and security.

A multipolar world can be a chaotic place. The danger is not so much that the United States may lose power, but that the globe's new rivals may fail to strike and manage a balance of power. End-of-the-year Cassandras traditionally predict doom, gloom and anarchy. This year they're looking less preposterous.

 
Our economy is still growing...and other countries still rely on us for growth. We stop buying goods from China, their economy is gone.
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Our economy is still growing...and other countries still rely on us for growth. We stop buying goods from China, their economy is gone.

...and you can watch all the cheap goods gone too. When it costs you $10 to buy a little plastic cup, what will you do?
 
You think we really reached empire status? I do agree though that derivative of our influence is zero, and we are seeing it in action right now when we unilaterally attack other countries. Hmm, to think it is PNAC that wants to extend this "Pax Americana"... Would you guys have a problem with that? living life as you guys have the past thirty years? Gut reaction tells me yes, because living in the USA is "the easy life" as compared with MOST places in the world~ but on the other hand something tells me good things don't last forever. Well, we should enjoy it while it lasts 😉 And after that...and thirty years from now when major democractic reforms have taken place in China...welll we'll see 😉
Besides, we got some time anyways...I bet ya guys Iraqi oil, which Saddam had it traded on the Euro, will now be traded on the dollar exclusively 😉

Though I don't see how China is displacing us cultrually in other nations...Japan and the South Koreas are virtual American culture with modifications and twists of them their own( since nothing transfers over exactly)...and I notice China becoming culturally more like the USA than anything else.

 
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

 
Originally posted by: magomago
You think we really reached empire status? I do agree though that derivative of our influence is zero, and we are seeing it in action right now when we unilaterally attack other countries. Hmm, to think it is PNAC that wants to extend this "Pax Americana"... Would you guys have a problem with that? living life as you guys have the past thirty years? Gut reaction tells me yes, because living in the USA is "the easy life" as compared with MOST places in the world~ but on the other hand something tells me good things don't last forever. Well, we should enjoy it while it lasts 😉 And after that...and thirty years from now when major democractic reforms have taken place in China...welll we'll see 😉
Besides, we got some time anyways...I bet ya guys Iraqi oil, which Saddam had it traded on the Euro, will now be traded on the dollar exclusively 😉

Though I don't see how China is displacing us cultrually in other nations...Japan and the South Koreas are virtual American culture with modifications and twists of them their own( since nothing transfers over exactly)...and I notice China becoming culturally more like the USA than anything else.

we were an empire 150 years ago :roll: looks like someone missed the news flash 😉
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Our economy is still growing...and other countries still rely on us for growth. We stop buying goods from China, their economy is gone.

Perhaps you don't quite see the big picture. The US has been growing for the past 50 years, yet at the same time it has been on a steady decline in every category. The problem is everyone else has been on a very steady and much faster rise. 50 years ago Europe was in ruins, full poor, starving desperate poeple. Asia was war torn, full of colonies and starving people barely producing enough food to eat. Look at where both of them are today.

If I had to bet, I would say these trends will continue - Europe will continue to integrate slowly (perhaps a common foreign policy and army in 30 years), and grow steadily (the growth of its newest members is about 5%, and there is always several countries aspiring to join), China will go through much of the same transformation as Japan, overtaking the US eventually (because of its population something Japan always lacked), and the rest of the world will also make progress - Russia, India, SE Asia, even parts of africa and the middle east.

The US reached the climax of its power in 1950, it'll take another several decades for you guys to really realize that you'll be Just Another Country - a regional power on par with other large countries. You can console yourself with such petty things as "We make block buster movies" and "Our economy grew by 0.3% more!!!", but its understandable. Pride is hard to get over. Eventually you will though, much like the British and French did not long ago.

I don't mean to sound jackass-ish, but that's the way things stand really.
 
Marty, the US reached the peak of it's power sometime around '98. No country has ever had as much power and influence over global affairs as the US did in the late 90s. China's growth and the EU's expasion have only recently been on the immediate radar, though they were both predictable back then.

Remember that the US had the USSR as a competitor previously. They held a huge sphere of influence that crossed the globe. When communism collapsed, the US quickly took over that sphere, completing it's set, with the exception of a few obstinate holdouts.

Since that peak was so recent, it is a little early to be predicting the inevitable end. But there will be some very interesting transitions through the rest of my lifetime.
 
Think things are going to be wonderful in Europe and Asia? Think again.


GLOBAL DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES

We quote a few facts from John Mauldin?s unpublished book with written permission of Mr. Mauldin.

November 01, 2003, Demography is Destiny:

"Now, let's look away from the US, and focus our eyes on the rest of the world. If we think the retirement problems facing the US are severe, then the facts suggest the rest of the developed world is facing a major crisis. Over the next few decades, we are going to see a shift in economic and political power that is simply staggering in its implications. Let's look at facts first, and then draw conclusions.

The population of the "developed countries" will drop rapidly over the next 50 years, while those of undeveloped countries, especially Islamic countries, will rise dramatically. Germany will experience no population growth and will remain at 80 million people, while Yemen grows from 18 million to over 84 million.

Russia will drop from 145 million to slightly over 100 million. Iran grows from 66 million to 105 million. Japan drops to 109 million, while Iraq and Saudi Arabia grow to 110 million. Italy declines from 57 million to 45 million, while Afghanistan grows from 21 to 70 million.

This underscores the 100-page CIA report released in July 2001, entitled Long-Term Global Demographic Trends: Reshaping the Geopolitical Landscape. The following are some quotes from that report:"

"Dramatic population declines have created power vacuums that new ethnic groups exploit. Differential population growth rates between neighbors have historically altered conventional balances of power....Our allies in the industrialized world will face an unprecedented challenge of aging. Both Europe and Japan stand to lose global power and influence... The failure to adequately integrate large youth populations in the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa is likely to perpetuate the cycle of political instability, ethnic wars, revolutions and anti-regime activities that already affect many of these countries. Unemployed youth provide exceptional fodder for radical movements and terrorist organizations, particularly in the Middle East."

The welfare state will be under threat. It will be difficult to maintain the current level of public sector services and transfer payments as fiscal strains rise. It is almost inevitable that the retirement age will rise in most advanced economies and real benefits may be cut. Meanwhile, aging populations will put immense pressure on state-funded health care facilities. New medical technologies could even exacerbate the problems by creating expensive new treatments and boosting life expectancy rates.

It may be difficult to keep the euro area intact. Europe's grim fiscal outlook raises a big question mark about the sustainability of the euro zone. The Stability and Growth pact will eventually have to be scrapped, and different fiscal positions across countries will create enormous strains, given a common monetary policy and currency. Meanwhile, expanding the European Union eastwards will not alleviate Europe's demographic problems as all the new prospective members (Turkey excepted) have even weaker population dynamics than existing EU members.

China will face many of the same problems as the West. The Chinese economy currently is booming, but it too faces demographic challenges down the road. The fertility rate is below replacement level and the working-age population is projected to peak in around 2025. This will make it easier to employ those workers flowing from rural areas to cities, but, as in other countries, the aging population will create a large fiscal problem, albeit later than in the West. Other important issues discussed in the CIA report include the implications of increased urbanization in a number of unstable countries, the global spread of infectious diseases, and the adverse environmental consequence of rapid population growth in the developing world.

The long-run picture for Europe and Japan looks bleak in that a deteriorating fiscal picture will be bearish for bonds while weak aggregate demand is bearish for stocks. Those two trends would be consistent if the eventual outcome is a stagflationary environment, which could occur in the context of labor shortages and attempts to inflate out of a government debt trap.

Link
 
Did Mr. Mauldin give you his standard disclaimer with his written approval, Rip???

John Mauldin is president of Millennium Wave Advisors, LLC, a registered investment advisor. All material presented herein is believed to be reliable but we cannot attest to its accuracy. Investment recommendations may change and readers are urged to check with their investment counselors before making any investment decisions. Opinions expressed in these reports may change without prior notice. John Mauldin and/or the staff at Millennium Wave Advisors, LLC may or may not have investments in any funds cited above.

 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Our economy is still growing...and other countries still rely on us for growth. We stop buying goods from China, their economy is gone.

not so fast buddy... you stop buying from China, you no have any pants to wear... no toys for your kids...

you need China more than China needs you
 
From the OP.

The United States government spent $650 billion more this year than it raised in revenue, and financed the deficit largely by borrowing from foreign central banks, mainly those of Japan and China. They have been willing creditors because American consumers send much of the money right back by purchasing foreign-made products. It's a neat balancing act, to a point. But the American accumulated debt to foreign investors has now swelled to $3.3 trillion - 28 percent of gross domestic product, nearly double the share of four years ago.

In the 1990's, the United States admonished Mexico and Argentina to get their economic houses in order. This month, the Chinese premier gave Washington a strikingly similar lecture.

These imbalances are not inherently disastrous. The Chinese get something out of the deal, a ready consumer market for their overheated production lines. If they stop lending to the United States, it would cause a deep recession here, but then Americans could not buy as many of their goods, and the recession would ricochet right back to Asia.

It's a variation on the old joke: If you owe the bank $1 billion, the bank owns you; if you owe the bank $1 trillion, you own the bank.

But what if another trillion-dollar customer walked into the bank? The bankers might be more willing to foreclose on the debtor, knowing that they could pick up business from the new tycoon.

The European Union, in many respects, is looking more and more like this new tycoon. Its currency, the euro, has risen in value by 35 percent against the dollar in the last three years.

Again, that is not necessarily bad. In theory, a falling dollar makes American exports cheaper, attracting demand that then boosts the dollar; a rising euro crimps European exports, which then lowers the euro; equilibrium is restored. In reality, this process unfolds slowly and shakily: in October, for instance, American exports rose, but American imports soared, too.

A more serious consequence of the dollar's fall is that the euro has become more rewarding for foreign investors, and they are reacting accordingly. In 2001, Middle Eastern oil-producing countries kept 75 percent of their currency reserves in dollars; now the figure is 61 percent, with much of the rest in euros. Chinese and Russian central bankers are also shifting reserves. This trend, at some point, could set off a spiral: the dollar declines, causing further sell-offs, leading to a further decline, and so on.

When the dollar has fallen in the past, the United States was a net creditor and there was no serious rival currency. Neither condition holds true now. As The Economist recently put it, "Never before has the guardian of the world's main reserve currency been its biggest net debtor."

 
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG

The theme of this thread isn't down with America. The theme of this thread is down with the policies which are turning America into a second rate economic power.

 
Don't know what's going to happen, but I will say this....

Trade deficits of 600 billion and budget deficits of 600 billion, both per year, can't lead you up.
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG

The theme of this thread isn't down with America. The theme of this thread is down with the policies which are turning America into a second rate economic power.

Which has you and others jumping for joy with your "down with America" attitudes.

I got news for you - B....(whatever your name is) - Despite yours and others attempts to deride our nation - we are strong. Other countries have their problems too inspite of your attempts to ignore them. The sky is not falling - we are still the world power - and we will outlast the current wave of negativity - just like we survived the "OMG the Japanese are taking us over" 80s.

Next flailing rant please...

CsG
 
My statement/question still stands....

If you run a 600 Billion trade and a 600 billion budget deficit, per year, you are not/will not go up. Strong country or not (not debating that we are strong as we are), we will be weakened by such large deficits at some point in time.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG

The theme of this thread isn't down with America. The theme of this thread is down with the policies which are turning America into a second rate economic power.

Which has you and others jumping for joy with your "down with America" attitudes.

I got news for you - B....(whatever your name is) - Despite yours and others attempts to deride our nation - we are strong. Other countries have their problems too inspite of your attempts to ignore them. The sky is not falling - we are still the world power - and we will outlast the current wave of negativity - just like we survived the "OMG the Japanese are taking us over" 80s.

Next flailing rant please...

CsG

I have to agree with CsG here, the sky ISN'T falling because nothing is ever as one sided as people suggest, any economics with half a brain (and no agenda) will tell you that. Things do re-arrange themselves from time to time, that's pretty obvious, and it's silly to expect us to remain the ONLY economic super power for very long. The rest of the world is growing as well, and they only seem to be growing faster than us because of where we all were 50 years ago. Look at Europe (in shambles) and China (starving rice farmers) compared to the US 50 years ago (the only remotely powerful country around).

It's silly to expect us to be as far ahead of everyone as we were 50 years ago, those guys in the rest of the world aren't stupid or lazy, we just had a good head start. But the idea that the growth of other parts of the world requires us to go into some kind of tailspin seems to be based on the flawed idea that economics is like a pizza, that if someone else gets too much, I don't get any. But it's totally possible that EVERYONE will be better off, as long as we don't kill ourselves off with stupid economic policies.

I will agree with the Chicken Little people on one thing here though, we're being foolish in spending all our time and energy on military efforts when the real benefits we can get come from economics. You can't be strong for too long through military power alone if you economics suck, just as the Soviets.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG

The theme of this thread isn't down with America. The theme of this thread is down with the policies which are turning America into a second rate economic power.

Which has you and others jumping for joy with your "down with America" attitudes.

I got news for you - B....(whatever your name is) - Despite yours and others attempts to deride our nation - we are strong. Other countries have their problems too inspite of your attempts to ignore them. The sky is not falling - we are still the world power - and we will outlast the current wave of negativity - just like we survived the "OMG the Japanese are taking us over" 80s.

Next flailing rant please...

CsG



Auto-Pilot: Danger, danger, collision imminent!
Co-Pilot: Sir, we are on a collision course with a mountain!
Pilot: You would enjoy that wouldn't you? You've been gunning for me since the day you came!! :|

**splat**
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: OS
China has it's own problems. Their financial system is all government funded, backed, and controlled. The government decides who gets business loans, based on what industries the government thinks is good for it's own economic development, not market forces. Inevitably bad loans will be made. China is a relatively closed society, so no one knows for sure how many bad loans are out there. But some think China is due for a major economic correction. Think Enron except on the scale of a country.

20 years ago Americans were bitching and crying about how Japan would surpass the US as the world's economic powerhouse. Then the bubble popped and Japan had a recession that lasted a decade.

Shhh - that doesn't conform to the "down with America" type theme of this thread - even though what you say is true. 😉

CsG

The theme of this thread isn't down with America. The theme of this thread is down with the policies which are turning America into a second rate economic power.

Which has you and others jumping for joy with your "down with America" attitudes.

I got news for you - B....(whatever your name is) - Despite yours and others attempts to deride our nation - we are strong. Other countries have their problems too inspite of your attempts to ignore them. The sky is not falling - we are still the world power - and we will outlast the current wave of negativity - just like we survived the "OMG the Japanese are taking us over" 80s.

Next flailing rant please...

CsG

I have to agree with CsG here, the sky ISN'T falling because nothing is ever as one sided as people suggest, any economics with half a brain (and no agenda) will tell you that. Things do re-arrange themselves from time to time, that's pretty obvious, and it's silly to expect us to remain the ONLY economic super power for very long. The rest of the world is growing as well, and they only seem to be growing faster than us because of where we all were 50 years ago. Look at Europe (in shambles) and China (starving rice farmers) compared to the US 50 years ago (the only remotely powerful country around).

It's silly to expect us to be as far ahead of everyone as we were 50 years ago, those guys in the rest of the world aren't stupid or lazy, we just had a good head start. But the idea that the growth of other parts of the world requires us to go into some kind of tailspin seems to be based on the flawed idea that economics is like a pizza, that if someone else gets too much, I don't get any. But it's totally possible that EVERYONE will be better off, as long as we don't kill ourselves off with stupid economic policies.

I will agree with the Chicken Little people on one thing here though, we're being foolish in spending all our time and energy on military efforts when the real benefits we can get come from economics. You can't be strong for too long through military power alone if you economics suck, just as the Soviets.

Things don't re-arrange thmemselves, someone re-arranges them. Will it all end tomorrow? Probably not, but the fact is that the current situation *will* lead to disaster. A change in direction will solve the issue.
 
Originally posted by: DeeKnow
Originally posted by: ntdz
Our economy is still growing...and other countries still rely on us for growth. We stop buying goods from China, their economy is gone.

not so fast buddy... you stop buying from China, you no have any pants to wear... no toys for your kids...

you need China more than China needs you

I realize China provides a good service to us, but there are 20 other countries that can provide the cheap manufactoring they provide, while there is only us to consume it all.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
My statement/question still stands....

If you run a 600 Billion trade and a 600 billion budget deficit, per year, you are not/will not go up. Strong country or not (not debating that we are strong as we are), we will be weakened by such large deficits at some point in time.



Meanwhile china is having a hard time finding people to buy its debt.
 
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