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China develops hypersonic weapons for nuke deliveries - U.S. blindsided

Roger Wilco

Golden Member
Mar 20, 2017
1,247
782
136
“The latest report said that the missile test “stunned” American military and intelligence officials about the Chinese military advance.
It further said that US scientists “were struggling to understand” the hypersonic weapon’s capability, “which the US does not currently possess”.

“According to estimates and analysis, hypersonic weapons travel in the upper atmosphere at speeds of up to 6,200 kilometres per hour (3,853 miles per hour) – more than five times the speed of sound, which travels at about 1,235 km/h (767 mph) and evade even the most advanced radar systems.”

“The US is also said to be racing to develop its own hypersonic weapon technology.
According to reports, US military contractors such as Lockheed Martin and Raytheon Technologies are involved in the missiles’ development.”

 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
37,773
12,481
136
The US has been dabbling with this for decades. A major part of the problem is that AFAIK all of these platforms involve using a sizable missile to loft the hypersonic craft which really gives other people with nukes the sweats. The US gave up an idea to equip ICBMs with conventional payloads for the same reason.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,364
3,841
136
“The latest report said that the missile test “stunned” American military and intelligence officials about the Chinese military advance.
It further said that US scientists “were struggling to understand” the hypersonic weapon’s capability, “which the US does not currently possess”.

“According to estimates and analysis, hypersonic weapons travel in the upper atmosphere at speeds of up to 6,200 kilometres per hour (3,853 miles per hour) – more than five times the speed of sound, which travels at about 1,235 km/h (767 mph) and evade even the most advanced radar systems.”

“The US is also said to be racing to develop its own hypersonic weapon technology.
According to reports, US military contractors such as Lockheed Martin and Raytheon Technologies are involved in the missiles’ development.”

Counterpoint.
No one was stunned.
They have been testing this since early 2014.
Adding the word "Hypersonic" creates hysteria that keeps $$$ flowing to our missile programs.
Articles and lobbyists spreading narratives paint a picture of missile zig zagging through the sky at mach 10.
Nope.
It's a glide weapon that starts out at high speed launched from a same old 60's era launcher at a slightly lower arc until that first course change then it slows way the fuck down.
As a conventional weapon, it will be fine for creating a really awkward situation where everyone is going to think you are launching nukes, potentially triggering a nuclear response to you just trying to blow up hanger. Enjoy your comic book if you think this going to be effective as a conventional weapon tying to hit a moving ship out at sea.

As a nuclear weapon....it's as useful as any other nuclear weapon. A wonderful way to throw money at posturing and nothing else.
What are they going to do? Nuke Taiwan? Nuke Japan? Nuke Guam?
Get to claim first strike 10 minute before the mandatory retaliatory strike that would basically trigger the end China as we know it?

In the old days, you could push a story about USSR or more recently Russia (who tested their own hypersonic balistic Jalopy not too long ago) to light a fire under congress to keep funding out own weapons programs.
Now that Congress is filled with a bunch of religious nutjobs who bank on armageddon scenarios involving china and Israel, the best way to keep the dollar coming is to hype up any weapons program China is working on.

Have no fear.
Anti hypersonic weapons capability already exists and layered approaches are already evolving as needed. The capability to deal with weapons launched from a different ballistic profiles has been part of that.

Summary - Old news on a well worn topic designed for congressional staff consumption and weirdo's who pay attention to defense industry news.
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
9,788
4,167
136
The US has been dabbling with this for decades. A major part of the problem is that AFAIK all of these platforms involve using a sizable missile to loft the hypersonic craft which really gives other people with nukes the sweats. The US gave up an idea to equip ICBMs with conventional payloads for the same reason.
Could carry them up in B-1Bs to 15Km+ at around Mach 1.2 and cut down the size of the launch platform. Obviously, this would dramatically increase time to target, but that's always true of the bomber component of the Nuclear Triad.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
13,906
2,215
126
Yay, more money for the military industrial complex! If only countries could spend this money to prevent something that could actually help the planet.
This.

And honestly, what difference does this make? It's my understanding that there's not really a reliable method to stop even non-hypersonic missiles. So if they launch these new ones, and the US launches theirs, then China still gets nuked. It just takes a little longer. I still don't think an established state is going to risk that.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,364
3,841
136
Could carry them up in B-1Bs to 15Km+ at around Mach 1.2 and cut down the size of the launch platform. Obviously, this would dramatically increase time to target, but that's always true of the bomber component of the Nuclear Triad.
The Airforce has its program for an air launched weapon.
Army has it own program.
The Navy has its own program for a own sub launched ballistic hypersonic weapon
Army and Navy both use the same glide weapon and only differ in launch system.
In 2021, the Navy requested 1.1 billion. Congress gave them 750million.
For 2022, they requested 1.4 billion.
I'm sure there are a lot of lobbyists sending articles about "Chinese hypersonic weapons" to every congressional aide out there.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
8,889
287
126
A usual, Beau explains it better than I can:


TLDR: It wasn't a surprise to the US military, it's not really a big deal, and we also have hypersonic technology (if not currently used for delivery of nukes). Lastly, if one of these flies, we're all just as fucked as if it was a conventional ICBM.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,628
2,278
136
Counterpoint.
No one was stunned.
They have been testing this since early 2014.
Adding the word "Hypersonic" creates hysteria that keeps $$$ flowing to our missile programs.
Articles and lobbyists spreading narratives paint a picture of missile zig zagging through the sky at mach 10.
Nope.
It's a glide weapon that starts out at high speed launched from a same old 60's era launcher at a slightly lower arc until that first course change then it slows way the fuck down.
As a conventional weapon, it will be fine for creating a really awkward situation where everyone is going to think you are launching nukes, potentially triggering a nuclear response to you just trying to blow up hanger. Enjoy your comic book if you think this going to be effective as a conventional weapon tying to hit a moving ship out at sea.

As a nuclear weapon....it's as useful as any other nuclear weapon. A wonderful way to throw money at posturing and nothing else.
What are they going to do? Nuke Taiwan? Nuke Japan? Nuke Guam?
Get to claim first strike 10 minute before the mandatory retaliatory strike that would basically trigger the end China as we know it?

In the old days, you could push a story about USSR or more recently Russia (who tested their own hypersonic balistic Jalopy not too long ago) to light a fire under congress to keep funding out own weapons programs.
Now that Congress is filled with a bunch of religious nutjobs who bank on armageddon scenarios involving china and Israel, the best way to keep the dollar coming is to hype up any weapons program China is working on.

Have no fear.
Anti hypersonic weapons capability already exists and layered approaches are already evolving as needed. The capability to deal with weapons launched from a different ballistic profiles has been part of that.

Summary - Old news on a well worn topic designed for congressional staff consumption and weirdo's who pay attention to defense industry news.
It reads more like a press release than a news article. Considering the source, I am inclined to believe your editorial perspective.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
18,480
5,627
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The US has been dabbling with this for decades. A major part of the problem is that AFAIK all of these platforms involve using a sizable missile to loft the hypersonic craft which really gives other people with nukes the sweats. The US gave up an idea to equip ICBMs with conventional payloads for the same reason.
Folks all ICBM's use ballistic flight and return to earth hypersonically. The trick is in having it fly in lower atmosphere for a useful amount of time without burning to a cinder. Early testing by US was spotty. Kind of like the missile defense plan. (Office I worked in has a couple photos of plasma trails left by reentry bodies right before splash down).
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
37,773
12,481
136
Folks all ICBM's use ballistic flight and return to earth hypersonically. The trick is in having it fly in lower atmosphere for a useful amount of time without burning to a cinder. Early testing by US was spotty. Kind of like the missile defense plan.
My point was in boost phase that nobody knows what the payload is and anybody it's headed towards is going to become pretty twitchy.
 
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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
8,364
3,841
136
We're not the greatest country in the world anymore.

I believe there is more to that story.
I believe the story is more about a software architect complaining about defense industry work than China vs US.
"I want to implement this stack and do cool stuff!!!!"
Pentagon - "How secure and resilient will it be?"
"It will be AGILE and ELEGANT and like how I want it to be stuff that I can apply at my next job because I want to get certain stuff done by age 40!"
Pentagon - "How secure and resilient will it be?"
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
9,788
4,167
136
Folks all ICBM's use ballistic flight and return to earth hypersonically. The trick is in having it fly in lower atmosphere for a useful amount of time without burning to a cinder. Early testing by US was spotty. Kind of like the missile defense plan.
And have more maneuvering capability - making their trajectory obscure till the final moment and making them harder to shoot down.
 
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Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
10,763
1,202
126
This is China preparing for a future encounter with America. A war with China will not be as easy as people predict. Especially a possible war 20 or more years into the future. China will be more than capable at this point, which will be a very scary problem for America. The one big issue China will have is the inexperience of war combat. But still, it's not going to be pretty. Add in hypersonic nukes and they've taken it to a whole nother level.
 

Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,134
1,146
136
A war like that has no winners, China included, once nukes go off. No matter how fast they go. Even if theirs were the only ones to explode it wouldn't take too many to put them up shit's creek from what I've read. Of course it wouldn't be "pretty" no war is, even today's shock and awe where we can all pretend it's just fireworks. It's just boys with big toys.
 
Feb 4, 2009
31,484
11,880
136
This is China preparing for a future encounter with America. A war with China will not be as easy as people predict. Especially a possible war 20 or more years into the future. China will be more than capable at this point, which will be a very scary problem for America. The one big issue China will have is the inexperience of war combat. But still, it's not going to be pretty. Add in hypersonic nukes and they've taken it to a whole nother level.
Just move to China dude.
Love you man, your constant hard-on for China can be irritating.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,784
3,191
126
This.

And honestly, what difference does this make? It's my understanding that there's not really a reliable method to stop even non-hypersonic missiles. So if they launch these new ones, and the US launches theirs, then China still gets nuked. It just takes a little longer. I still don't think an established state is going to risk that.
Also i understansd that in the event we get nuked first and its so devastating we are no more....that our nukes will launch regardless.......you see the problem with this scenario is......as long as our nukes can be programmed to eventually launch....say a few days later or a few weks later....whose going to risk everything...because we all know they have already thought of all the different scenarios.....hypersonic or not....
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
8,889
287
126
Also i understansd that in the event we get nuked first and its so devastating we are no more....that our nukes will launch regardless.......you see the problem with this scenario is......as long as our nukes can be programmed to eventually launch....say a few days later or a few weks later....whose going to risk everything...because we all know they have already thought of all the different scenarios.....hypersonic or not....
That's one of the main purposes of nuclear ballistic missile subs. Even if you manage to severely damage and disable ground stations in a preemptive strike, you're still in a world of trouble from assets you can't easily take out (even if you knew where they were).

Hypersonic weapons really don't change the MAD paradigm much.
 

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