China creating clean nuclear power with Thorium nuclear reactors

[Moonbeam]

Nice deflection. Why don't you make some kind of energy solution that isn't so full of IFs.



IF those technologies ever get there. How is this any different than opining on safe, clean nuclear technologies that are 'on the way'.



Do you currently own solar panels on your roof as your main energy source? Does any of your power come from a nuclear source? If so, you've contributed to that poison. Maybe your strong statements at others are just a reflection of your own self loathing.

No, my strong statements to others are there to show them how easy it is to make them feel their own self loathing and proving it's there by their need to attack back. What is on the way for nuclear is another giant con by folk who want to make money on nuclear dreams. The funding for reactors isn't there and won't be so long as fools don't get sold fraudulent claims about mana from heaven. And there is no if about the fact that radioactive wastes can kill for thousands of years.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

So for most of them, stopping the reactor is as simple as dumping the water. That too is something you probably won't want to do for environmental reasons, but there's basically no chance in hell the reactor will melt down.

*cough* boiling water reactors *cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents

 

[jackschmittusa]

I've been reading about thorium reactors for years and I can't remember anybody knowledgeable about nuclear energy having anything bad to say about them. I have never seen an article devoted to disparaging the tech from a cost, safety, or engineering prospective.

If anybody has any (apparently) secret knowledge of why we shouldn't pursue it, I'd be happy to hear about it.

 

[ShawnD1]

*cough* boiling water reactors *cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents

Cover it with cement. Done deal.

 

[Powermoloch]

when the time is right and the will power of the people, thorium is not that bad and is more abundant. what's the hold up ???!

 

[wuliheron]

when the time is right and the will power of the people, thorium is not that bad and is more abundant. what's the hold up ???!

There could be any number of reasons, not least of all politics. Historically administrations that support the oil industry have underfunded research into alternatives that might cut into their business. Other technologies such as fusion reactors which were always in the distant future received more funding sometimes because of their military potential. For example, the US has supported laser fusion research in part because the military wants research into high powered lasers.

 

[drebo]

Enviromentalists and leftists won't be happy until we have no electricity and live back in the stone age.

They don't support our modern mid-term alternatives, yet they rail against our current methods. You can't have both, and the wind and the sun don't cut it.

 

[Mark R]

If anybody has any (apparently) secret knowledge of why we shouldn't pursue it, I'd be happy to hear about it.

1. Thorium isn't a fuel. The fuel must first be manufacturerd by irradiating thorium in a thorium reactor. This, unfortunately, poses a chicken-and-egg type problem. Without fuel made from thorium, you can't turn the thorium into fuel.

The solution is to start the reactors off with plutonium (*), and, therefore, a substantial supply of plutonium is required to 'kick start' a thorium economy. This means a mature reprocessing (or weapons) infrastructure with capacity to supply hundreds of tons of plutonium is necessary before thorium can be used on a large scale.
(*) Natural or enriched uranium is not a substitute.

2. The use of thorium requires a radical rethink of reactor technology - to the point where the necessary reactors are bordering on unrecognisable when compared with the reactors in use today, or historically.

The nuclear industry has been historically exceedingly conservative in its designs, with very little changing from one design to the next. It has taken over 40 years of experience before anyone has dared to design a reactor that doesn't require electricity to provide emergency cooling. This has long been recognised as a problem - but the sheer amount of change required has scuppered such designs from a engineering, analysis and licensing perspective.

Even today, only 1 reactor 'passive' design is available for build today - and none are under construction.

3. The basic materials science research for these new types of reactors has not been completed. The current nuclear grade steels and materials are unlikely to be suitable, and considerable research will be needed to ensure the materials give satisfactory performance.

4. The whole concept of the thorium economy hinges on reprocessing of irradiated thorium to extract the fuel. The reprocessing technology used for plutonium production (see above) is unlikely to be suitable (politically) and would be sub-optimal (technically).

Development of a whole new reprocessing technology and its widespread implementation would be necessary before reactors could be operated on thorium.

 

[cirrrocco]

1. ...... be operated on thorium.

Thank for the nice writeup. I thought India was building a full scale thorium reactor after running a breeder for about 10 years.

since you seems to know lots about this field, can you explain what the Indians have been trying until now. is the fast breeder the same as irradiating the plutonium?

 

[Perknose]

1. Thorium isn't a fuel. The fuel must first be manufacturerd by irradiating thorium in a thorium reactor. This, unfortunately, poses a chicken-and-egg type problem. Without fuel made from thorium, you can't turn the thorium into fuel.

The solution is to start the reactors off with plutonium (*), and, therefore, a substantial supply of plutonium is required to 'kick start' a thorium economy. This means a mature reprocessing (or weapons) infrastructure with capacity to supply hundreds of tons of plutonium is necessary before thorium can be used on a large scale.
(*) Natural or enriched uranium is not a substitute.

2. The use of thorium requires a radical rethink of reactor technology - to the point where the necessary reactors are bordering on unrecognisable when compared with the reactors in use today, or historically.

The nuclear industry has been historically exceedingly conservative in its designs, with very little changing from one design to the next. It has taken over 40 years of experience before anyone has dared to design a reactor that doesn't require electricity to provide emergency cooling. This has long been recognised as a problem - but the sheer amount of change required has scuppered such designs from a engineering, analysis and licensing perspective.

Even today, only 1 reactor 'passive' design is available for build today - and none are under construction.

3. The basic materials science research for these new types of reactors has not been completed. The current nuclear grade steels and materials are unlikely to be suitable, and considerable research will be needed to ensure the materials give satisfactory performance.

4. The whole concept of the thorium economy hinges on reprocessing of irradiated thorium to extract the fuel. The reprocessing technology used for plutonium production (see above) is unlikely to be suitable (politically) and would be sub-optimal (technically).

Development of a whole new reprocessing technology and its widespread implementation would be necessary before reactors could be operated on thorium.

Thank-you! One of the better P&N posts I've read lately. :thumbusp:

 

[Mark R]

Thank for the nice writeup. I thought India was building a full scale thorium reactor after running a breeder for about 10 years.

since you seems to know lots about this field, can you explain what the Indians have been trying until now. is the fast breeder the same as irradiating the plutonium?

The Indians are planning to go to thorium in a 3 phase process.

1. Use of relatively conventional uranium-fuelled heavy-water reactors. These are designed to produce a modest amount of plutonium as a side-effect of generating power.

While conventional PWR/BWR reactors could be used for this - the Indians have preferred to go with their home-grown heavy-water designs, which have a number of advantages, not least requiring much less very expensive and very high-tech uranium enrichment, and they can be tuned to produce decent quantities of plutonium.

2. Once a reasonable stock of plutonium is available (probably after about 10 years), fast breeder reactors (FBRs) are planned for construction. These would probably be of a sodium-cooled design, as have been used elsewhere. These would be fuelled by plutonium. Historically, these were designed to produce large amounts of plutonium, in order to maximize weapons production, but can be modified to produce fuel from thorium (but are not a good choice for burning the subsequent fuel).

There are two options:
Use the FBRs to accelerate plutonium production, then switch the reactors to irradiating thorium, or simply start with thorium irradiation (assuming enough plutonium is available)

At the same time, plants capable of reprocessing the irradiated thorium to extract the uranium 233 fuel (this is not natural or enriched uranium and has markedly different properties).

3. Finally, once enough U233 fuel has been acquired, construct some advanced thorium 'thermal breeder' reactors. The Indians have proposed a design that is sufficiently similar to conventional PWRs/BWRs, that it should be constructable and maintainable, even if it's not particularly efficient, and its operation is considerably more complex than a conventional PWR/BWR.

The thermal breeders would burn U233 from thorium fuel, while producing power, and simultaneously irradiating thorium. Ideally, the reactors should produce as much U233 fuel as they burn (or more, if you want to expand the number of reactors). If they don't, they will need constant top-ups of fuel from the stage 1 and 2 reactors.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Sounds too good to be true.

Which means it is.

 

[werepossum]

The Indians are planning to go to thorium in a 3 phase process.

1. Use of relatively conventional uranium-fuelled heavy-water reactors. These are designed to produce a modest amount of plutonium as a side-effect of generating power.

While conventional PWR/BWR reactors could be used for this - the Indians have preferred to go with their home-grown heavy-water designs, which have a number of advantages, not least requiring much less very expensive and very high-tech uranium enrichment, and they can be tuned to produce decent quantities of plutonium.

2. Once a reasonable stock of plutonium is available (probably after about 10 years), fast breeder reactors (FBRs) are planned for construction. These would probably be of a sodium-cooled design, as have been used elsewhere. These would be fuelled by plutonium. Historically, these were designed to produce large amounts of plutonium, in order to maximize weapons production, but can be modified to produce fuel from thorium (but are not a good choice for burning the subsequent fuel).

There are two options:
Use the FBRs to accelerate plutonium production, then switch the reactors to irradiating thorium, or simply start with thorium irradiation (assuming enough plutonium is available)

At the same time, plants capable of reprocessing the irradiated thorium to extract the uranium 233 fuel (this is not natural or enriched uranium and has markedly different properties).

3. Finally, once enough U233 fuel has been acquired, construct some advanced thorium 'thermal breeder' reactors. The Indians have proposed a design that is sufficiently similar to conventional PWRs/BWRs, that it should be constructable and maintainable, even if it's not particularly efficient, and its operation is considerably more complex than a conventional PWR/BWR.

The thermal breeders would burn U233 from thorium fuel, while producing power, and simultaneously irradiating thorium. Ideally, the reactors should produce as much U233 fuel as they burn (or more, if you want to expand the number of reactors). If they don't, they will need constant top-ups of fuel from the stage 1 and 2 reactors.

Thanks for your excellent posts, informative and missing the flying unicorn farts that so often plague the "They're hidin' 100 mpg carburetors from us!" crowd. Thorium reactors are something I know literally nothing about, so now I understand a lot more about step 2 between "Build thorium reactors" and "Big profit" - and I better understand why I don't have to step over thorium reactors on my way to work.

I'm assuming that if the Indians are building these, then they are assured that the technological and economic hurdles have been crossed, correct?

 

[Throckmorton]

Ideally, the reactors should produce as much U233 fuel as they burn (or more, if you want to expand the number of reactors).

What? Endless energy?