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China buying worlds most advanced engine factory.
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3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
Attention to detail or not, the stuff coming out of Japan was initially absolute crap, and now it's not.
The real challenge for China will be motivating people to care about what they produce when they are still essentially slaves; propaganda and nationalism will only take you so far😛
J-10 Fighter, thats enough said. Take some Israeli and Russian aircraft technology along with the general F16 design to make a fighter aircraft superior to the F16. The J-10 is one of the primary reasons cited by the US Military for justification of the F22 Raptor.
Another Japanese cultural fanboi.
1) You're comparing fine Japanese dining probably to some run-of-the-mill United States Chinese restaurant. Go to China and dine at an expensive place and then post back. It is easy to pay just as much attention to detail when you're dishing the $$.
2) Ditto with the Katana. Comparing swords used by Shoguns and top Samurai to an average Chinese footman's sword? There are plenty of crappy swords made in Japan for the average footman. There are also a decent amount of good swords made for Chinese Generals.
If you think any 1 culture is inherently superior in making stuff than another, its just stupid. Given the resources, any group of people can be successful in making good products.
dimensionOFdissension
Member
I see no problem with this move. It's a smart play by the Chinese.
Strange to see opposition to this from some of the very same folks who purport to believe in a 'free market'.
Strange to see opposition to this from some of the very same folks who purport to believe in a 'free market'.
stateofbeasley
Senior member
QFT. I can only hope that India succeeds in its rise to counterbalance China.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
Undoubtedly, the West will fall... it's in the nature of historical human development. We may very well be the last generations who keep Judeo-Christianity at the forefront of things.
I daresay I prefer the Chinese taking over the world, than the Islamists... In the end, the Chinese system will have to adapt and evolve... and become less politicized and more careful towards its citizens. And maybe - just maybe - China will develop an economic model which will avoid the worst aspects of capitalism, and rampant individualism, in the favour of a more balanced approach in which individual rights are taken care of on an equal footing with group rights and social structures.
I daresay I prefer the Chinese taking over the world, than the Islamists... In the end, the Chinese system will have to adapt and evolve... and become less politicized and more careful towards its citizens. And maybe - just maybe - China will develop an economic model which will avoid the worst aspects of capitalism, and rampant individualism, in the favour of a more balanced approach in which individual rights are taken care of on an equal footing with group rights and social structures.
stateofbeasley
Senior member
Honestly I don't care if "Judeo-Christianity" collapses into a black hole. I'm fed up with fundamentalists like Rick Santorum.
The consequences of China "taking over the world" would be much different than Islamist rule, but I am fairly sure the results would be nearly as unpleasant. Say goodbye to free speech, free press. Say hello to technological controls on all aspects of your life.
China already is a model for rampant indvidualism (where select party members and their friends get rich), trampled individual rights, and crushed social structures (read about the destruction of Tibetan culture -- it's eerily similar to what the US did to the Native Americans).
Nor do I think the Chinese government will adapt and evolve, short of a major catastrophe. Protests are quickly crushed and news supressed. There's not much room for debate or organization.
I honestly would not care much if the US ceases to become the dominant world player. I am very concerned however that a country whose government is extremely anti-freedom may rise to take its place and attempt to impose its will on other countries.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
you are definitely misreading the term "Judeo-Christianity"... I meant it as a synonym for "Western civilisation" ... the one based on the Greco-Roman traditions.
With the Chinese, we still have culture and technology... computers, cinema, space exploration, medicine... and no matter how much free spechh is controlled, it's still better than the situation in most of the Middle East... with the Islamists, we only have prayers 5 times a day.
With the Chinese, we still have culture and technology... computers, cinema, space exploration, medicine... and no matter how much free spechh is controlled, it's still better than the situation in most of the Middle East... with the Islamists, we only have prayers 5 times a day.
Maybe this wouldn't be a problem if Americans would get off their asses and take some inititiative for higher learning. No one wants to be an engineer these days, or anything challenging. They want a standard, worthless college degree, and they want the government to hold their hand in retirement, healthcare, etc.
Japan has as many engineers as we do, but they have half of our population. Honda says they'll have fuel cell cars out in 2 years. Is it the US government's fault? Does it need to bail out lazy union workers? Hell no. Kids need to show interest in learning. We don't have a bunch of highly talented engineers pouring in like we did 60 years ago (Europe/Germany/Jewish, because of WWII), we've got to raise our intelligence, not import it.
Japan has as many engineers as we do, but they have half of our population. Honda says they'll have fuel cell cars out in 2 years. Is it the US government's fault? Does it need to bail out lazy union workers? Hell no. Kids need to show interest in learning. We don't have a bunch of highly talented engineers pouring in like we did 60 years ago (Europe/Germany/Jewish, because of WWII), we've got to raise our intelligence, not import it.
Heh, that's nice, but I doubt Chinese will take over the world anytime soon. I don't know why some people think Chinese is out to take over the world. If people read some Chinese history, out of the 4000 years recorded Chinese history, the only time Chinese is expanisionist is when we were ruled by expansionist people like the Mongolian and the Manchurian. When the traditional "han" people ruled China like today, with the exception of a few war like emperor, Chinese would rather farm and develope poetry and technology than go to war with someone else.
Also I don't know why people think the Chinese people/government will always restrict personal freedom and rule by brute force. South Korean government ruled by brute force 20~30 years ago, Taiwanese government ruled by brute force 20~30 years ago, but both places have total democracy today. Government change, and and I don't know why people think Chinese will stay the way it is forever.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
By "taking over" I don't necessarily mean political and military expansionism... that's a thing of the past.
I mean it from the point of view of being "The Nexus", the centre of things, from which everything else propagates to the rest of the world.
I mean it from the point of view of being "The Nexus", the centre of things, from which everything else propagates to the rest of the world.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
If the Islamacists take over, we'll be going back to the stone ages. Life would be like something out of the novella Anthem.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
Why might that be? Why wouldn't a bright student want to go get an engineering degree ???
Could it be...some sort of sense that it won't pay? Some sort of perception that the engineering jobs are being sent overseas? Could it be some sort of perception that a smart person might have a better life and earn a better living as a doctor or as an MBA? "While you're out studying math, the guys who are partying will end up as your boss."
BTW--we have plenty of engineers and Ph.D. scientists, many of them unemployed or significantly underemployed, often involuntarily-out-of-field. The notion that we have a shortage is a myth. If there were a shortage, perhaps there wouldn't be a shortage if the compensation, quality of life, career half-life, and job security made the educational investment worthwhile relative to other options.
Correction:
South Korea and Taiwan were pretty much autocratic military dictatorships up until the 1980s. Times change and governments have to adapt to that -- or die. Contrary to what many people think, the standard of living in North Korea was actually higher than South Korea for the majority of the time after the Korean War; it was only until the 1980s, mainly after the Olympics (and the collapse of the USSR), that South Korea began to pull away. In all respects, the South and North Korean governments from 1950-1980 were the same: autocratic military dictatorships with a centrally planned economy. The only difference, IMO, is that the North did not adapt to the changing times.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
Depends on a lot of things. like material costs, difficulty of fixing errors, level of automation; when I did QA for a summer at GM, they were still more than happy to reach 3-sigma performance, and that was just for parts (when simple welded parts are done this badly, you can imgaine the tolerance stack-up issues they had later). They actually had the equipment and capability to shoot for 6-sigma with a little bit of attention to detail, and therefore throw out about 1 part per month, but they weren't interested (and I was working with management, as in non-union folks).
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
Does that unemployment rate count people who are underemployed or involuntarily out-of-field as employed? Remember, the guy working a dead end job at an office supply store for $8/hour counts as employed even if he has a Ph.D. in physics.
If what you imply is true, then when I went searching for a professional job that would make use of my two advanced degrees (one in a central physical science, one that's professional) then why was did it seem so difficult to actually find one? Why is it that a large percentage of people with a simliar degree combination had difficulty obtaining positions unless they came out of the top schools with good grades? Why did so many of these people conclude that the job market for their first degree (often a science Ph.D.) was so poor that they needed to go combine it with a professional degree? (You have to have the combination of technical degree + professional degree to legally work in this particular "hot" speciality field--patent law.)
Bright engineers don't have a problem getting jobs. I'm an engineer, and all of my friends are highly ranked in our class. It's not a matter of getting a job, it's getting the job we want.
I've heard doom and gloom about job availability in engineering from forums like this and from the media, but I've never seen it as an engineer in real life. The media likes to blow up bad news. There may be unemployed untalented engineers..untalented either acdemically or professionally. I don't care. We need talented engineers, not someone with a slip of paper. And certainly a bright person with dedication wouldn't just make it in engineering.
We have a shortage of talented engineers. If we don't, why are Japanese, Korean, Chinese companies about to stomp all over us? Hondas got Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars coming out in a few years, while we are scratching our heads on hybrids and mapping out fuel cells in 10 years. Japan doesn't outsource advanced engineering jobs.
Another thing, there's plenty of people that want the engineer salary. They just don't want to work for it. If you go to a typical public school, the very first few weeks of freshmen engineering classes are packed. By the end of the first semester, about half of the initial class drops out. These people don't understand the concept of work...they go off to usually become business majors, and drink away their education, because that's what they think they are entitled to.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
Simple - The Republican goal is to get Americans as close to that $100 a month, 16 hr days, 7 day a week with no benefits as well.
Game on - Enjoy
marincounty
Diamond Member
Complete BS. My brother is an awesome engineer, with an MS in ME from UCB, with over 25 years of experience with NASA, HP, and he and a few thousand others were just laid off. His job search has yielded 2 interviews in about 6 months.
The same companies that are laying off skilled engineers here, are hiring Indians left and right.
I wouldn't recommend engineering to any young student.
Svnla
Lifer
Do you read history books? Chinese did invade other smaller countries many times. Ask the Vietnamese about the 1000 years plus of Chinese oppression/domination. Ask Tibet people about how China treat them since 1959 <FYI, China overan Tibet>. And China was ruled by Hans in those times, not other ethic races.
Shall I go on?
If you think China government is all that great. Why don't you travel to China and live under communist rule for a few years and then tell us how it goes.
We can see on the news how French police treat protesters <with water cannons and batons>. Do you remember how Chinese government treat student protestors? <with tanks/guns/bullets>
lets get real people..read this article.. China is old news. Vietnam is the new China. China has serious issues. Corruption, Poverty, Pollution, Lack of Health Care/Insurance, etc. Lets be serious...What is there really to worry about from China?
April 3, 2006
Labor Shortage in China May Lead to Trade Shift
By DAVID BARBOZA
SHENZHEN, China ? Persistent labor shortages at hundreds of Chinese factories have led experts to conclude that the economy is undergoing a profound change that will ripple through the global market for manufactured goods.
The shortage of workers is pushing up wages and swelling the ranks of the country's middle class, and it could make Chinese-made products less of a bargain worldwide. International manufacturers are already talking about moving factories to lower-cost countries like Vietnam.
At the Well Brain factory here in one of China's special economic zones, the changes are clear. Over the last year, Well Brain, a midsize producer of small electric appliances like hair rollers, coffee makers and hot plates, has raised salaries, improved benefits and even dispatched a team of recruiters to find workers in the countryside.
That kind of behavior was unheard of as recently as three years ago, when millions of young people were still flooding into booming Shenzhen searching for any type of work.
A few years ago, "people would just show up at the door," said Liang Jian, the human resources manager at Well Brain. "Now we put up an ad looking for five people, and maybe one person shows up."
For all the complaints of factory owners, though, the situation has a silver lining for the members of the world's largest labor force. Economists say the shortages are spurring companies to improve labor conditions and to more aggressively recruit workers with incentives and benefits.
The changes also suggest that China may already be moving up the economic ladder, as workers see opportunities beyond simply being unskilled assemblers of the world's goods. Rising wages may also prompt Chinese consumers to start buying more products from other countries, helping to balance the nation's huge trade surpluses.
"The next great story in China is how they are going to move out of the lower-end stuff: the toys, textiles and sporting goods equipment," said Jonathan Anderson, an economist at UBS in Hong Kong. "They're going to do different things."
When sporadic labor shortages first appeared in late 2004, government leaders dismissed them as short-lived anomalies. But they now say the problem is likely to be a more persistent one. Experts say the shortages are arising primarily because China's economy is sizzling hot, tax cuts have helped keep people working on farms, and factories are continuing to expand even as the number of young Chinese starts to level off.
Prosperity is also moving inland, and workers who might earlier have migrated elsewhere are staying closer to home.
Though estimates are hard to come by, data from officials suggest that major export industries are looking for at least one million additional workers, and the real number could be much higher.
"We're seeing an end to the golden period of extremely low-cost labor in China," said Hong Liang, a Goldman Sachs economist who has studied labor costs here. "There are plenty of workers, but the supply of uneducated workers is shrinking."
Because of these shortages, wage levels throughout China's manufacturing ranks are rising, threatening at some point to weaken China's competitiveness on world markets.
Li & Fung, one of the world's biggest trading companies, said recently that labor shortages and rising manufacturing costs in China were already forcing it to step up its diversification efforts and look for supplies from factories in other parts of Asia.
"I look at China a lot differently than I did three years ago," said Bruce Rockowitz, president of Li & Fung in Hong Kong, citing the rising costs of doing business in China. "China is no longer the lowest-cost producer. There's an evolution going on. People are now going to Vietnam, and India and Bangladesh."
The higher wages come at a time when costs are already rising sharply across the country for energy and land. On top of a strengthening Chinese currency, this is likely to mean that the cost of consumer goods shipped to the United States and Europe will rise.
To be sure, China is not about to lose its title as factory floor of the world. And some analysts dispute the significance of the shortages.
"Reports of a shortage of unskilled and semi-skilled factory workers are overblown," said Andy Rothman, an analyst at CLSA, an investment bank. "Companies are, however, having trouble finding experienced people to fill midlevel and senior management jobs."
The lack of workers is most acute in two of the country's most powerful export regions: the Pearl River Delta, which feeds into Hong Kong, and the Yangtze River Delta, which funnels into the country's financial capital, Shanghai. Wages are rising significantly in both areas.
According to government figures, minimum wages ? which averaged $58 to $74 a month (not including benefits) in 2004 ? have climbed about 25 percent over the past three years in big cities like Shenzhen, Beijing and Shanghai, mostly by government mandate.
Wages at larger factories operated on behalf of multinationals ? which are typically $100 to $200 a month ? are also on the rise.
Here in Shenzhen, one of the first cities to benefit from the country's economic reforms, factory operators say finding low-wage workers is harder than ever. At the Nantou Labor Market, where hordes of people used to come to find jobs, there are now mostly lonely employment agents.
"The people coming here are fewer and fewer," said a woman named Miss Li, who works at the Xingda Employment Agency. "All the labor agencies face the same problem. A lot of young people are now going to the Yangtze River area, where there are higher salaries."
In Guangdong Province late last year, the government said factories were short more than 500,000 workers; and in Fujian Province, there was a shortage of 300,000.
Even north of Shenzhen, Zhejiang Province, known for its brash entrepreneurs, is short about 200,000 to 300,000 workers this year, government officials say. The Wahaha Group, a Chinese beverage maker based in the city of Hangzhou, is one of the region's rising corporate stars. But one of the company's 500-worker factories is short by 50.
"It seems to become more and more serious year by year," said Sun Youguo, the company's human resources manager. "Because of the shortage we're paying more attention to migrant workers. We're now building a dormitory to house couples."
Government policy is playing a role in creating the coastal labor shortages. Trying to close the yawning income gap between the urban rich and the rural poor in China, the national government last year eliminated the agricultural tax, and it also stepped up efforts to develop local economies in poor, inland and western provinces, which have mostly been left behind.
Now, even remote areas are starting to develop ? sprouting malls, housing projects, restaurants and infrastructure projects. These are creating jobs in the middle of the country and offering alternatives to many young workers who once were forced to travel thousands of miles for jobs on the coast.
According to Goldman Sachs and other experts, the beginnings of a demographic shift have already been reducing the number of young people between the ages of 15 and 24, who make up much of the migrant labor work force. Similarly, the number of women between the ages of 18 and 35 began falling this year, according to census data.
The women are critical because China's factories like to hire many women from the countryside, who have been willing to migrate for three-to-five-year stints to earn money as factory workers before returning home with bundles of cash and fresh hopes of finding a marriage partner.
China's one-child policy is also aggravating the shortages. With the first generation of young people born under the one-child policy now emerging from postsecondary education, many of them see varied opportunities not available to an earlier generation.
"When the economic reform started, migrant workers were very hard-working, and usually stayed for a long time at factory jobs, but the new generation has changed," said Chen Guanghan, a professor at Zhongshan University in Hong Kong. "They are reluctant to take factory jobs that are harsh and pay very little."
Many are going to college to avoid the factory floor. Last year, Chinese colleges and universities enrolled over 14 million students, up from about 4.3 million in 1999.
Workers are sharing more information about factory conditions among friends and learning to bargain and leap from job to job. They are also increasingly ambitious.
"There's still a lot of cheap labor, but Chinese workers are getting skilled very quickly," said Ms. Hong at Goldman Sachs. "They are moving up the value chain faster than people expected."
Economists may continue to debate the severity of the shortages, but there is little doubt that the waves of migrants who once crowded into the booming coastal provinces are diminishing.
As a result, manufacturers are already starting to look for other places to produce goods.
"Many companies are already moving to Wuhan, Chongqing and Hunan," Ms. Hong said, ticking off the names of inland Chinese cities. "But Vietnam and Bangladesh are also benefiting. We're bullish on Vietnam."
April 3, 2006
Labor Shortage in China May Lead to Trade Shift
By DAVID BARBOZA
SHENZHEN, China ? Persistent labor shortages at hundreds of Chinese factories have led experts to conclude that the economy is undergoing a profound change that will ripple through the global market for manufactured goods.
The shortage of workers is pushing up wages and swelling the ranks of the country's middle class, and it could make Chinese-made products less of a bargain worldwide. International manufacturers are already talking about moving factories to lower-cost countries like Vietnam.
At the Well Brain factory here in one of China's special economic zones, the changes are clear. Over the last year, Well Brain, a midsize producer of small electric appliances like hair rollers, coffee makers and hot plates, has raised salaries, improved benefits and even dispatched a team of recruiters to find workers in the countryside.
That kind of behavior was unheard of as recently as three years ago, when millions of young people were still flooding into booming Shenzhen searching for any type of work.
A few years ago, "people would just show up at the door," said Liang Jian, the human resources manager at Well Brain. "Now we put up an ad looking for five people, and maybe one person shows up."
For all the complaints of factory owners, though, the situation has a silver lining for the members of the world's largest labor force. Economists say the shortages are spurring companies to improve labor conditions and to more aggressively recruit workers with incentives and benefits.
The changes also suggest that China may already be moving up the economic ladder, as workers see opportunities beyond simply being unskilled assemblers of the world's goods. Rising wages may also prompt Chinese consumers to start buying more products from other countries, helping to balance the nation's huge trade surpluses.
"The next great story in China is how they are going to move out of the lower-end stuff: the toys, textiles and sporting goods equipment," said Jonathan Anderson, an economist at UBS in Hong Kong. "They're going to do different things."
When sporadic labor shortages first appeared in late 2004, government leaders dismissed them as short-lived anomalies. But they now say the problem is likely to be a more persistent one. Experts say the shortages are arising primarily because China's economy is sizzling hot, tax cuts have helped keep people working on farms, and factories are continuing to expand even as the number of young Chinese starts to level off.
Prosperity is also moving inland, and workers who might earlier have migrated elsewhere are staying closer to home.
Though estimates are hard to come by, data from officials suggest that major export industries are looking for at least one million additional workers, and the real number could be much higher.
"We're seeing an end to the golden period of extremely low-cost labor in China," said Hong Liang, a Goldman Sachs economist who has studied labor costs here. "There are plenty of workers, but the supply of uneducated workers is shrinking."
Because of these shortages, wage levels throughout China's manufacturing ranks are rising, threatening at some point to weaken China's competitiveness on world markets.
Li & Fung, one of the world's biggest trading companies, said recently that labor shortages and rising manufacturing costs in China were already forcing it to step up its diversification efforts and look for supplies from factories in other parts of Asia.
"I look at China a lot differently than I did three years ago," said Bruce Rockowitz, president of Li & Fung in Hong Kong, citing the rising costs of doing business in China. "China is no longer the lowest-cost producer. There's an evolution going on. People are now going to Vietnam, and India and Bangladesh."
The higher wages come at a time when costs are already rising sharply across the country for energy and land. On top of a strengthening Chinese currency, this is likely to mean that the cost of consumer goods shipped to the United States and Europe will rise.
To be sure, China is not about to lose its title as factory floor of the world. And some analysts dispute the significance of the shortages.
"Reports of a shortage of unskilled and semi-skilled factory workers are overblown," said Andy Rothman, an analyst at CLSA, an investment bank. "Companies are, however, having trouble finding experienced people to fill midlevel and senior management jobs."
The lack of workers is most acute in two of the country's most powerful export regions: the Pearl River Delta, which feeds into Hong Kong, and the Yangtze River Delta, which funnels into the country's financial capital, Shanghai. Wages are rising significantly in both areas.
According to government figures, minimum wages ? which averaged $58 to $74 a month (not including benefits) in 2004 ? have climbed about 25 percent over the past three years in big cities like Shenzhen, Beijing and Shanghai, mostly by government mandate.
Wages at larger factories operated on behalf of multinationals ? which are typically $100 to $200 a month ? are also on the rise.
Here in Shenzhen, one of the first cities to benefit from the country's economic reforms, factory operators say finding low-wage workers is harder than ever. At the Nantou Labor Market, where hordes of people used to come to find jobs, there are now mostly lonely employment agents.
"The people coming here are fewer and fewer," said a woman named Miss Li, who works at the Xingda Employment Agency. "All the labor agencies face the same problem. A lot of young people are now going to the Yangtze River area, where there are higher salaries."
In Guangdong Province late last year, the government said factories were short more than 500,000 workers; and in Fujian Province, there was a shortage of 300,000.
Even north of Shenzhen, Zhejiang Province, known for its brash entrepreneurs, is short about 200,000 to 300,000 workers this year, government officials say. The Wahaha Group, a Chinese beverage maker based in the city of Hangzhou, is one of the region's rising corporate stars. But one of the company's 500-worker factories is short by 50.
"It seems to become more and more serious year by year," said Sun Youguo, the company's human resources manager. "Because of the shortage we're paying more attention to migrant workers. We're now building a dormitory to house couples."
Government policy is playing a role in creating the coastal labor shortages. Trying to close the yawning income gap between the urban rich and the rural poor in China, the national government last year eliminated the agricultural tax, and it also stepped up efforts to develop local economies in poor, inland and western provinces, which have mostly been left behind.
Now, even remote areas are starting to develop ? sprouting malls, housing projects, restaurants and infrastructure projects. These are creating jobs in the middle of the country and offering alternatives to many young workers who once were forced to travel thousands of miles for jobs on the coast.
According to Goldman Sachs and other experts, the beginnings of a demographic shift have already been reducing the number of young people between the ages of 15 and 24, who make up much of the migrant labor work force. Similarly, the number of women between the ages of 18 and 35 began falling this year, according to census data.
The women are critical because China's factories like to hire many women from the countryside, who have been willing to migrate for three-to-five-year stints to earn money as factory workers before returning home with bundles of cash and fresh hopes of finding a marriage partner.
China's one-child policy is also aggravating the shortages. With the first generation of young people born under the one-child policy now emerging from postsecondary education, many of them see varied opportunities not available to an earlier generation.
"When the economic reform started, migrant workers were very hard-working, and usually stayed for a long time at factory jobs, but the new generation has changed," said Chen Guanghan, a professor at Zhongshan University in Hong Kong. "They are reluctant to take factory jobs that are harsh and pay very little."
Many are going to college to avoid the factory floor. Last year, Chinese colleges and universities enrolled over 14 million students, up from about 4.3 million in 1999.
Workers are sharing more information about factory conditions among friends and learning to bargain and leap from job to job. They are also increasingly ambitious.
"There's still a lot of cheap labor, but Chinese workers are getting skilled very quickly," said Ms. Hong at Goldman Sachs. "They are moving up the value chain faster than people expected."
Economists may continue to debate the severity of the shortages, but there is little doubt that the waves of migrants who once crowded into the booming coastal provinces are diminishing.
As a result, manufacturers are already starting to look for other places to produce goods.
"Many companies are already moving to Wuhan, Chongqing and Hunan," Ms. Hong said, ticking off the names of inland Chinese cities. "But Vietnam and Bangladesh are also benefiting. We're bullish on Vietnam."
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