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Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf Charging Cost

AMCRambler

AMCRambler

Diamond Member
One metric I have been looking for regarding these new plug in electric cars that I haven't been able to find yet is how much does it actually cost to re-charge the damn things. No where could I find a figure telling me how many kilowatt hours it takes to charge up the cars so that I could come up with a real world figure for what it would cost me per year to drive one of these vs an econobox.

Saw an article on CNN this morning specifically about this comparison. Not sure why it took so long for someone to do it, or maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/02/autos/electric_car_fuel_economy/index.htm?hpt=C2

Looks like a Volt driven 15,000 mi a year at 11 cents a kwh would cost $601 a year. By my math, with 35mi per charge, that's about 429 re-charges at a cost of $1.40 per charge. Pretty friggin' cheap.

Granted they're not including the actual cost of electricity there because there are taxes and delivery charges tacked on by the utility which where I live run about $.05 a kwh. Factor that in and you're talking $874 a year and $2.03 per re-charge which still saves you money over a comparably sized economy car.

Now once I get 5 minutes I have to crunch all the costs of buying a Volt or Leaf vs a Cobalt or Versa. I'm betting it probably comes out as a wash in the end. If they can bring the cost of the plug-ins down though it will definitely start making financial sense.
 
AMCRambler said:
Now once I get 5 minutes I have to crunch all the costs of buying a Volt or Leaf vs a Cobalt or Versa. I'm betting it probably comes out as a wash in the end. If they can bring the cost of the plug-ins down though it will definitely start making financial sense.
Click to expand...
It'll never happen. Hybrids are expensive because they have all of the complex stuff that goes into a gasoline car as well as all of the complex stuff that would go into an electric car. The day you see hybrids drop to $20k, a gasoline-only or electric-only car of comparable performance would still cost only $10k.

The idea of electric-only with swappable batteries seems most realistic.


edit
Projected 0-60 is about 8-9 seconds. That would put the Volt in the same performance category as a regular Honda Civic. The Civic with the most features and cool stuff would be the EX model - Starting at $23,955 (according to honda.com)
For me, that extra $20k is about 10 years worth of gasoline.
 
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ShawnD1 said:
It'll never happen. Hybrids are expensive because they have all of the complex stuff that goes into a gasoline car as well as all of the complex stuff that would go into an electric car. The day you see hybrids drop to $20k, a gasoline-only or electric-only car of comparable performance would still cost only $10k.

The idea of electric-only with swappable batteries seems most realistic.
Click to expand...

Honda Insight for $18K
 
ShawnD1 said:
It'll never happen. Hybrids are expensive because they have all of the complex stuff that goes into a gasoline car as well as all of the complex stuff that would go into an electric car. The day you see hybrids drop to $20k, a gasoline-only or electric-only car of comparable performance would still cost only $10k.

The idea of electric-only with swappable batteries seems most realistic.


edit
Projected 0-60 is about 8-9 seconds. That would put the Volt in the same performance category as a regular Honda Civic. The Civic with the most features and cool stuff would be the EX model - Starting at $23,955 (according to honda.com)
For me, that extra $20k is about 10 years worth of gasoline.
Click to expand...

It should be less than a $20k difference in price though because of the tax rebates on buying the plug in electric right? I thought with the rebates, the cost of a Volt was around $33,500. That would make it only $10k difference.
 
Doggiedog said:
Honda Insight for $18K
Click to expand...

I said of comparable performance. The insight is such a slow car that Honda doesn't even make a gasoline-only equivalent. Honda Insight's 0-60 is 11 seconds. Honda's next slowest car, the Fit, cost $15k and can do 0-60 in 9 seconds.

When I was buying a car a year ago, the thing that really threw me off about the Insight was how it lacked a lot of standard features that a similar priced gasoline car came with. For example, my Corolla LE came with a remote starter, traction control, and stability control. The similarly priced Honda Insight didn't have any of those things, and those were things I really care about because winter is about 5 months long where I live. Another strong contender in the same price range was the Subaru Impreza which has way more power, tighter handling, and AWD. The Insight just didn't make sense. There was nothing to justify the price of it. The hybrid system easily accounts for 1/4 to 1/3 the price of that car.


it has 2 speakers and no floor mats.
Click to expand...
lol. I was buying a car in 2006 and I asked the Toyota guy why I should buy a Corolla and not a Honda Civic. I kid you not, his exact reply was "our cars come with floor mats" 😀
 
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AMCRambler said:
It should be less than a $20k difference in price though because of the tax rebates on buying the plug in electric right? I thought with the rebates, the cost of a Volt was around $33,500. That would make it only $10k difference.
Click to expand...

You'd have to lease for it to even start making economic sense, I think.

To buy, you have to pay the full cost up front, then wait and see how much of the tax credit you will get.

Only $10K difference? Isn't that going to take a while to make up?
 
AMCRambler said:
One metric I have been looking for regarding these new plug in electric cars that I haven't been able to find yet is how much does it actually cost to re-charge the damn things. No where could I find a figure telling me how many kilowatt hours it takes to charge up the cars so that I could come up with a real world figure for what it would cost me per year to drive one of these vs an econobox.

Saw an article on CNN this morning specifically about this comparison. Not sure why it took so long for someone to do it, or maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/02/autos/electric_car_fuel_economy/index.htm?hpt=C2

Looks like a Volt driven 15,000 mi a year at 11 cents a kwh would cost $601 a year. By my math, with 35mi per charge, that's about 429 re-charges at a cost of $1.40 per charge. Pretty friggin' cheap.

Granted they're not including the actual cost of electricity there because there are taxes and delivery charges tacked on by the utility which where I live run about $.05 a kwh. Factor that in and you're talking $874 a year and $2.03 per re-charge which still saves you money over a comparably sized economy car.

Now once I get 5 minutes I have to crunch all the costs of buying a Volt or Leaf vs a Cobalt or Versa. I'm betting it probably comes out as a wash in the end. If they can bring the cost of the plug-ins down though it will definitely start making financial sense.
Click to expand...

Your post made me do math. I had to figure out how you got your numbers. So this is the formula you used:

$601.07 = (15,000 miles / 35 miles per charge) X 12.75 kwh x $0.11 per kwh

or

energy cost = (miles driven per year / 35 miles per charge) x 12.75 kwh to charge x cost per kwh

By the way, in order to drive and not use any gasoline (which your 15,000 mile figure doesn't include) you can only drive 12,775 miles per year (35 miles per day x 365 days per year).

Since I put so few miles per year on a vehicle, and my kwh cost is less, but for consistancy, let's keep the years driven per year to the maximum you can drive the Volt per year without using gasoline (12,775). The total energy cost for the Volt would be:

$428.15 = (12,775 miles / 35 miles per charge) X 12.75 kwh x $0.092 per kwh (real kwh rate of $0.087 plus all other fees and taxes)

Now let's compare this to the pretty much fully loaded Cadillac CTS we bought new in January 2009 when GM wasn't selling many cars (sticker $44K, paid just over $33K). I'll use the city mpg only since we want to compare apples to apples.

$1,838.18 = (12,775 miles per year / 18 mpg city) x $2.59 per gallon

So if I want to trade comfort, luxury, and performance (305hp) for a small econobox, no real luxury or performance, I can save $1,410.03 a year. To me spending the extra $1,410.03 a year on luxury and performance is worth it.

Now if I truely want to buy an econobox, let's look at the Cruze. I'll go the complete econobox route and let's say I pay the full sticker price of $16,995 ($16,005 less than the Volt).

$1,378.63 = (12,775 miles per year / 24 mpg city) x $2.59 per gallon. This would cost me $950.49 more per year to drive than the Volt. BUT! Let's see how long it would take to break even on cost with the Cruze vs. Volt.

$16,005 savings in buying the Cruze / $950.49 per year of additional fuel costs = 16.84 years of driving the Volt to break even. This isn't including sales tax on either vehicle, and it doesn't include changing the battery pack at some point in the Volt.

Let's compare the Volt to buying a 3 year old, fully loaded, 2008 Cadillac CTS with a private seller price of $22,000.

$1,946.31 = (12,775 miles per year / 17 mpg city) x $2.59 per gallon. This would cost me $1,518.16 more per year to drive than the Volt. Now the break even point.

$11,000 savings in buying the 2008 CTS / $1,518.16 per year of additional fuel costs = 7.25 years of driving the Volt to break even.

Let's look at buying a 3 year old, 2008 Chevy Trailblazer with a private party price of $17,089.00.
$2,205.82 = (12,775 miles per year / 15 mpg city) x $2.59 per gallon. This would cost me $1,777.67 more per year to drive than the Volt. Now the break even point.

$15,911.00 savings in buying the Trailblazer / $1,777.67 per year of additional fuel costs = 8.95 years of driving the Volt to break even. 8.95 years and this is a large SUV with lousy city mpg.

What I'm basically getting at is you'll never break even with the Volt, and your best choice would be a 2 or 3 year old used car, in good mechanical condition, and it doesn't necessarilly have to get great city mpg. If you really want a new econobox, any new gasoline powered econobox would make a better economic choice than the Volt.
 
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ShawnD1 said:
lol. I was buying a car in 2006 and I asked the Toyota guy why I should buy a Corolla and not a Honda Civic. I kid you not, his exact reply was "our cars come with floor mats" 😀
Click to expand...

Except the Honda Civic is superior in handling qualities to the Corolla. The dealer will usually toss in the floor mats at no extra cost in the negotiation process, if you ask for them. I do like Toyotas but I wasn't impressed with the Corolla.

Here's Honda's new hybrid that I was talking about.
http://www.honda.ca/crz

"Looks like an airplane, without wings!"
 
How many times do we have to go over the same crap? Everybody knows the car doesn't make financial sense. Its a look at me car.
 
What Cepak said, lol. Thanks for doing all the math for me that I didn't have time to do when I posted this. Yes I used the assumption that you'd only be running electric the whole time because I thought that's what CNN did. Sounds like that's impossible unless you charge it up and drive it more than once a day. Theoretically that is possible.

But anyway, it's basically what I expected and what everyone has been saying without putting any hard numbers out there to substantiate it. You can't quite make a business case to buy a Volt or a Leaf. That really sucks. I wanted the Volt to be the game changer we all hoped it would be, but it looks like it's just a first whack at a new innovation.

I am proud that it's our country driving this innovation though. For once instead of just bitching about how bad foreign oil is bending us over, we're actually trying to do something about it. I want to be a part of that. I just don't know if I can practically afford it.

If we want Plug In electrics to succeed, we really need to start throwing money at battery research. It really is the biggest thing holding them back. 35 miles on a charge is just not good enough. Better cheaper battery packs added to ramped up production resulting in reduced costs and better performance will be the nails in OPEC's coffin.

(and yes I know I'm quite the hypocrite as I drive my GTO with it's gas guzzling 6L V8 every day! But goddamn it sounds great, and that punch in the ass when you step on it!)
 
I don't really want to restate what you guys already know, but this really isn't about improving the customers financials. This does remove some dependence on foreign oil, but even that is so miniscule I feel a bit silly saying it.

This is a gateway technology. It's a development technology. This is a stepping stone to the all-electric cars with fast-charge systems. It also helps their fleet economy by selling high mileage cars to wealthy folks who would never buy econoboxs - much like the Prius has done for a while now.

The ecological benefit is extremely arguable: you're still burning significant amounts of fossil fuels and those battery packs are pretty nasty to manufacture and recycle.

So - kudos to those who plunk down the money to support a technology that's the first step toward going 'more' green. If you're looking for a financial reason though, you're barking up the wrong tree =).
 
mmntech said:
Except the Honda Civic is superior in handling qualities to the Corolla. The dealer will usually toss in the floor mats at no extra cost in the negotiation process, if you ask for them. I do like Toyotas but I wasn't impressed with the Corolla.
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The guys at Honda and Toyota are assholes. They won't drop the price at all since the Civic has a waiting list, but they are at least willing to throw in "free" things like locking wheel nuts, cargo net for the trunk, a bra on the front, free oil changes for life (which turned out to be 3 years), and a few other things.


Cepak, do a number crunch on the Toyota Matrix against the Toyota Prius. It will blow your mind how many years it takes to break even. I think it came out to something like 10 years last time I went through it. I think I even made a graph of it in Excel and posted it on this forum.
 
thedarkwolf said:
How many times do we have to go over the same crap? Everybody knows the car doesn't make financial sense. Its a look at me car.
Click to expand...

It's cus these people don't get it. Hybrids and electric cars don't save anyone any money. They are all much more expensive than comparable cars.
 
thedarkwolf said:
How many times do we have to go over the same crap? Everybody knows the car doesn't make financial sense. Its a look at me car.
Click to expand...

Well, I think the point is that relatively few people can afford to pay several thousand more dollars just to be in a Volt or Leaf. A few more will not realize that a Cruise or Focus is a much better deal over all. A few more will just have to be an early adopter.

So the initial sales will likely be people who have money to burn, and people who don't do their homework, and some fanatics. :biggrin:

What I really want to hear, is the Chevy salesmen justifying a Volt over a Cruise to someone who doesn't have a lot of money and should not be buying a Volt...
 
They are only making 10k this year. The salesmen won't need to push people into them. The people that want them want them.
 
thedarkwolf said:
They are only making 10k this year. The salesmen won't need to push people into them. The people that want them want them.
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Yeah, that will mostly be after the initial sales.

However, I think the salesmen will need to do some pushing even in the first year. Many articles have been put out explaining that the Volt and Leaf do not make financial sense and may not even make environmental sense.
 
i read that the leaf will have very low maintenance costs because there is not ICE to care for. just an electric motor and batteries, so take that into account.
 
AMCRambler said:
Looks like a Volt driven 15,000 mi a year at 11 cents a kwh would cost $601 a year. By my math, with 35mi per charge, that's about 429 re-charges at a cost of $1.40 per charge. Pretty friggin' cheap.
Click to expand...

$1.40 for 35 miles doesn't sound so good now that i think about it.

gas used to be $1.40 before the huge spike when oil went over $20/barrel a few years back, and as low as $1.00 10 years ago.0
a compact car can get 35 miles hwy easily.

and as you stated, 11 cents per kwh doesn't include delivery charges, at least not where i live.
 
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