Cheney enters 'torture' memos row

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Now TLC comes back with, "Nor is this about what I know. Personally, I'm far more concerned about preventing future attacks on the citizens of this country. When faced with the dilemma of deciding what is worse - tens, hundreds, or possily thousands of our fellow countrymen being killed in an attack, or some radical nutjob possibly getting water up his fucking nose, it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned."

Sadly TLC, if you bothered to think it through, you would realize that our use of torture is motivating ten of millions of people to hate us. People who did not hate us before but now hate us because of the cruel and inhumane practices of only a few people in power in the USA.

And TLC, that does not me feel safer in any way.

OMG. Somebody doesn't like us? Well, damn, that's something entirely new. How upsetting. Should I comb my hair and make kissy faces at them?

:roll:

Whoosh, right over your head.

Think so? Well let me explain it to you a bit more simply so you might be able to comprehend that it didn't go anywhere near over my head.

I'm ridiculing the assertion of "OMG, dey hates us." in the same way that the left pulls out "They hate our freedom!"

Got it now?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It's also fundamental to be fucking honest, and people have not been honest in this debate by slinging "TORTURE" to and fro. So don't lecture me about about balance and clarity when one particular side of this debate has shown very little of either. Read some of Harvey's crap if you don't comprehend specifically which side I'm speaking about.

How about we let John McCain lecture you then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imIMJjhHqQQ

"Waterboarding is torture, period."

No, you're right TLC, you know more than a tortured pow.

McCain also stated that these memos should not have been released. I'm sure you agree with him on that statement as well?

Nor is this about what I know. Personally, I'm far more concerned about preventing future attacks on the citizens of this country. When faced with the dilemma of deciding what is worse - tens, hundreds, or possily thousands of our fellow countrymen being killed in an attack, or some radical nutjob possibly getting water up his fucking nose, it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously my opposition in here has already demonstrated what they are more concerned about.

Waterboarding IS torture. Whether or not waterboarding is torture has not been a question until 8 years ago when Bush & Co decided they wanted to do it and played legal voodoo to justify its use. McCain's opinion is not the final word, it merely reiterates a historical fact of which everyone outside of you and the Bushies already acknowledge.

There is no right or wrong on whether or not these memos should have been released. There are arguments on both sides and it is a fair debate. McCain's opinion here carries little more weight than anyone else's.

And if you're so ok with waterboarding, then just admit waterboarding is torture and you're fine with it. If it's a nobrainer, then say that we need to do it and you think torture is justified. But the "waterboarding isn't torture" rhetoric goes against 600 years of its use as a torture technique to extract confessions. Is it less horrific than applying a powerdrill to someone's kneecaps? Sure. It's still torture.

As to your "opposition" that recognizes that morally degrading this country to combat its enemies defeats the very purpose of fighting to preserve American values, your attacks on their patriotism or concern for the well being of American lives is a pathetic repackaging of failed conservative and Rovian tactics. Torture yields information of questionable value and encourages our enemies and would-be enemies to fight us forever because we prove to be the devil they claim we are. Great, we're still morally superior to Al Qaeda, nice benchmark.

Bush stood up and said "We Don't Torture" for a reason. Because he knows torture is wrong and anti-american. He ordered it anyway, and lied about it, but he didn't claim "we need to torture." That's your claim. You support throwing the values of this country in the toilet. We're anti-American? Please.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Some of this is definitely political. The last thing Obama wants to answer is the question "If torturing a suspect would get information that might save a few lives, would you do it?". Torture is only useful in obtaining "confessions" not "facts". The analysis suggest torture is a rather lousy means to get information and can even be counter productive (eg person being tortured makes shit up hoping it'll be what the torturer wants to hear and the'll stop).

The ends don't justify the means. It doesn't matter if Cheney can point to a specific torture session that yielded valid information, because there's no telling if we could have gotten that information without torturing.

So if we torture 100 people and 5 of them give us good information that does saves lives does that justify it? Does that justify the innocents that are tortured? The very same principles and liberties that we claim our troops are defending with their lives must be lived up to if they mean anything at all. We can't commit the same acts and justify them with rhetoric about being the good guys.

It would be a stupid move to essentially brag to the world how well our torture techniques work. If an armed force fighting the US captures a senior US military officer, and they know that torturing him will save the lives of hundreds of their soldiers, they should go ahead and do it? And, when brought before an international court for war crimes, they can just say, "Dick Cheney, a former Vice President of the US, said it was morally justified, so we did it."

Showing that we actually got useful information after torturing someone fails to defend the torture because we do not know that we would have failed to get the information without torture. It also fails to take into account the number of recruits that we promoted for the enemy who might have stayed neutral had their family or friends not been tortured and locked up indefinetly and the numbers of civilians and our troops who could be tortured and murdered in retaliation.

It is always possible that any given torture of an individual provided some reliable information, but even that information remains suspect in the fog of false statements made by those who are attempting to escape pain. The only thing that Cheney's call could do would be to provide a clear example of confirmation bias. Look! We got these three pieces of useful information among the 20,000 false leads from several hundred tortured prisoners! It works!

Bush and Cheney lied to claim we did not use torture. - "We don't torture" they said

Dick Cheney had several years to argue for the importance of torture, since Congress had been debating torture and Guantanamo as a hot topic since probably 2005. He showed no reticence in declassifying information if it suited his political ends (e.g., Valerie Plame). For him to come out now and say that certain documents ought to be declassified to support his view of waterboarding is simply beyond the pale.

I cannot think of a major public figure who has less credibility when talking about national security, and yet, he is deluded into thinking that his views are beyond reproach. He is the Republican version of Lyndon LaRouche.

good post

BMW540I6speed doesn't post a lot, but his posts are always worth reading.

On a more interesting note, I've noticed that his posts almost never get any replies. Most likely it's because unlike vast majority of the P&N posters BMW540I6speed always puts forward precise and coherent argument that few can successfully argue against, so most of the time people just chose to ignore it.

Still, always nice to read his thoughts. :thumbsup:

Actually, it can be argued against. I just didn't feel like wading through the number of specious and speculatory statements that were made in that post as many of them had already been presented in one form or another in here.

If you want an example:

So if we torture 100 people and 5 of them give us good information that does saves lives does that justify it? Does that justify the innocents that are tortured? The very same principles and liberties that we claim our troops are defending with their lives must be lived up to if they mean anything at all. We can't commit the same acts and justify them with rhetoric about being the good guys.

Where does the bolded part come from? Who is claiming innocents should be tortured?

If the CIA were just using waterboarding willy-nilly, that might be a valid point. They didn't. Its use was limited to a very few high-profile terrorists that everyone in here knows weren't innocent. So why introduce such a glaring red herring into the argument? There's plenty more, but let's not pretend that BMW540I6speed's little dissertation is bulletproof. It's not by any means.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Harvey

I guess you didn't get the memo. No matter how you try to distort the numbers or blame "liberals" for "inflating" them, WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE!

At the moment, your "suspicion" is as much bullshit as any of the rest of your lame attempts to excuse or deny the Bushwhackos' crimes. :roll:

Keep screaming that mantra to yourself over and over and over curled up in a fetal position while all your friends join hands in a circle and hum Kumbya, Harvey.

I nominate you as the official AT P&N crash test dummy to prove waterboarding isn't torture. :light:

All those in favor say "Aye". Motion passed

Interesting how a mod can make attack comments like this. *shrug*

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled program.

"attack" comments? :laugh:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It's also fundamental to be fucking honest, and people have not been honest in this debate by slinging "TORTURE" to and fro. So don't lecture me about about balance and clarity when one particular side of this debate has shown very little of either. Read some of Harvey's crap if you don't comprehend specifically which side I'm speaking about.

How about we let John McCain lecture you then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imIMJjhHqQQ

"Waterboarding is torture, period."

No, you're right TLC, you know more than a tortured pow.

McCain also stated that these memos should not have been released. I'm sure you agree with him on that statement as well?

Nor is this about what I know. Personally, I'm far more concerned about preventing future attacks on the citizens of this country. When faced with the dilemma of deciding what is worse - tens, hundreds, or possily thousands of our fellow countrymen being killed in an attack, or some radical nutjob possibly getting water up his fucking nose, it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously my opposition in here has already demonstrated what they are more concerned about.

Waterboarding IS torture. Whether or not waterboarding is torture has not been a question until 8 years ago when Bush & Co decided they wanted to do it and played legal voodoo to justify its use. McCain's opinion is not the final word, it merely reiterates a historical fact of which everyone outside of you and the Bushies already acknowledge.

There is no right or wrong on whether or not these memos should have been released. There are arguments on both sides and it is a fair debate. McCain's opinion here carries little more weight than anyone else's.

And if you're so ok with waterboarding, then just admit waterboarding is torture and you're fine with it. If it's a nobrainer, then say that we need to do it and you think torture is justified. But the "waterboarding isn't torture" rhetoric goes against 600 years of its use as a torture technique to extract confessions. Is it less horrific than applying a powerdrill to someone's kneecaps? Sure. It's still torture.

As to your "opposition" that recognizes that morally degrading this country to combat its enemies defeats the very purpose of fighting to preserve American values, your attacks on their patriotism or concern for the well being of American lives is a pathetic repackaging of failed conservative and Rovian tactics. Torture yields information of questionable value and encourages our enemies and would-be enemies to fight us forever because we prove to be the devil they claim we are. Great, we're still morally superior to Al Qaeda, nice benchmark.

Bush stood up and said "We Don't Torture" for a reason. Because he knows torture is wrong and anti-american. He ordered it anyway, and lied about it, but he didn't claim "we need to torture." That's your claim. You support throwing the values of this country in the toilet. We're anti-American? Please.

Claiming that waterboarding is always torture is no different than claiming killing is always murder. It's not. The law makes distinctions, just like the law is used to make distinctions about murder, it can also be used to make distinctions about waterboarding.

Unfortunately you guys would rather stick your fingers in your ears and go "Nah, nah, nah, ne nah, nah" or rely on emotional appeals than actually give that point serious consideration. It's the same ploy that the abortions rights people use when they shout "MURDERER."

 

[NoStateofMind]

TLC, give it up. Your ego may not have let you stop while you were ahead, but your intellect should. Of course its too late to stop while you are ahead now but you can save yourself from further embarrassment.

Its crystal clear to everyone with any kind of human compassion that waterboarding is not some amusement park ride, it is in fact torture.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

TLC, give it up. Your ego may not have let you stop while you were ahead, but your intellect should. Of course its too late to stop while you are ahead now but you can save yourself from further embarrassment.

Its crystal clear to everyone with any kind of human compassion that waterboarding is not some amusement park ride, it is in fact torture.

As you note, it's way too late for TLC save himself from embarrassment. If he really believes his own bullshit, he accept the nomination as the official AT P&N crash test dummy to prove waterboarding isn't torture. If he survives, he can tell us all about it. and we'll owe him a beer. :beer:

Maybe we should start a poll thread about whether he should do it. :light:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
TLC, give it up. Your ego may not have let you stop while you were ahead, but your intellect should. Of course its too late to stop while you are ahead now but you can save yourself from further embarrassment.

Its crystal clear to everyone with any kind of human compassion that waterboarding is not some amusement park ride, it is in fact torture.

I always know that I've made arguments that way too strong and that you guys can't legitimately counter when it results in a reply like yours. You can try to weasel away by using that kind of lame reply but, really, it doesn't work and it's transparent as hell.

 

[Lemon law]

TLC, its evident that you are a legend in your own mind, but you are just about the only one on this entire thread who believes your argument has an iota of defensible logic behind it.

And since this entire torture is a crime issue may be put to a test in a court of law, I think the questions and answers when and if a verdict comes will do something to put this issue behind us.

Since the past cannot be changed, the best we can hope for is that a future morally bankrupt US President and his administration learn that they cannot bend the clear meanings of laws to suit themselves.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
TLC, give it up. Your ego may not have let you stop while you were ahead, but your intellect should. Of course its too late to stop while you are ahead now but you can save yourself from further embarrassment.

Its crystal clear to everyone with any kind of human compassion that waterboarding is not some amusement park ride, it is in fact torture.

I always know that I've made arguments that way too strong and that you guys can't legitimately counter when it results in a reply like yours. You can try to weasel away by using that kind of lame reply but, really, it doesn't work and it's transparent as hell.

You made "too strong" an argument for waterboarding? Are you kidding? When do we sign you up for the test run? You shouldn't have a problem with it, being that its not torture. :roll:

Like I said, you have to have compassion for your fellow human beings in order to see that it is torture, where does that leave you? Sadly, that puts you squarely in the position of a heartless fool who willingly dismisses common facts to support his own fairytale position.

Unfortunately, you'll dismiss this post and challenge by diverting the topic to something else. You'll blindly and daftly ignore present facts known the world over for your own imaginary peace of mind. TLC, you are out of touch with reality in this case, and I hope for your own sake you wake up and smell the bile spewing from your inhumane justifying mouth.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
TLC, give it up. Your ego may not have let you stop while you were ahead, but your intellect should. Of course its too late to stop while you are ahead now but you can save yourself from further embarrassment.

Its crystal clear to everyone with any kind of human compassion that waterboarding is not some amusement park ride, it is in fact torture.

I always know that I've made arguments that way too strong and that you guys can't legitimately counter when it results in a reply like yours. You can try to weasel away by using that kind of lame reply but, really, it doesn't work and it's transparent as hell.

You made "too strong" an argument for waterboarding? Are you kidding? When do we sign you up for the test run? You shouldn't have a problem with it, being that its not torture. :roll:

Like I said, you have to have compassion for your fellow human beings in order to see that it is torture, where does that leave you? Sadly, that puts you squarely in the position of a heartless fool who willingly dismisses common facts to support his own fairytale position.

Unfortunately, you'll dismiss this post and challenge by diverting the topic to something else. You'll blindly and daftly ignore present facts known the world over for your own imaginary peace of mind. TLC, you are out of touch with reality in this case, and I hope for your own sake you wake up and smell the bile spewing from your inhumane justifying mouth.

Ah, yes, now comes the villification phase of the argument where the opposition is labeled as having no compassion, being morally bankrupt, inhuman, yada, yada, yada. You know, for everyone in here that supports abortion rights (I'm in that group as well), there is a large group of people that would claim the same about us. I don't lose sleep at night over them calling me a murderer. If you are a member of that group I'm sure you don't either. After all, techically, abortion is legal so it's not actually murder.

Truthfully, I believe the ones who are morally bankrupt cretins here are those that would potentially sacrifice the lives of your fellow citizens so you can sit around with a warm fuzzy about the rest of the world loving you and stroke off over your morally superior attitude. So put that in your pipe and smoke it you anti-American, terrorist loving troll.

See, I can turn that same argument around and send it right back atcha. And, yes, it sounds identically as stupid when I do it as when you do the same sort of thing. Maybe you need to see it from the other side to recognize its stupidity though? If not then there's just no hope for you.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Ah, yes, now comes the villification phase of the argument where the opposition is labeled as having no compassion, being morally bankrupt, inhuman, yada, yada, yada.

That's what happens when you spew pathetic, irrational defenses of villains who have committed indefensible, horrific crimes. If that's who you are, you own it, and you get to live with it.

Will your next stunts be to post defenses of Hitler and Pol Pot? :shocked:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Ah, yes, now comes the villification phase of the argument where the opposition is labeled as having no compassion, being morally bankrupt, inhuman, yada, yada, yada.

That's what happens when you spew pathetic, irrational defenses of villains who have committed indefensible, horrific crimes. If that's who you are, you own it, and you get to live with it.

Will your next stunts be to post defenses of Hitler and Pol Pot? :shocked:

You defending KSM and other scumbag terrorists puts you in the very same category. Welcome to hell with the rest of us, Harvey. Have a seat.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Ah, yes, now comes the villification phase of the argument where the opposition is labeled as having no compassion, being morally bankrupt, inhuman, yada, yada, yada. You know, for everyone in here that supports abortion rights (I'm in that group as well), there is a large group of people that would claim the same about us. I don't lose sleep at night over them calling me a murderer. If you are a member of that group I'm sure you don't either. After all, techically, abortion is legal so it's not actually murder.

Truthfully, I believe the ones who are morally bankrupt cretins here are those that would potentially sacrifice the lives of your fellow citizens so you can sit around with a warm fuzzy about the rest of the world loving you and stroke off over your morally superior attitude. So put that in your pipe and smoke it you anti-American, terrorist loving troll.

See, I can turn that same argument around and send it right back atcha. And, yes, it sounds identically as stupid when I do it as when you do the same sort of thing. Maybe you need to see it from the other side to recognize its stupidity though? If not then there's just no hope for you.

Unfortunately, you'll dismiss this post and challenge by diverting the topic to something else. You'll blindly and daftly ignore present facts known the world over for your own imaginary peace of mind. TLC, you are out of touch with reality in this case, and I hope for your own sake you wake up and smell the bile spewing from your inhumane justifying mouth.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You defending KSM and other scumbag terrorists puts you in the very same category. Welcome to hell with the rest of us, Harvey. Have a seat.

Saying that you don't believe the United States government should torture prisoners is not the same thing as defending the actions of those prisoners. That's stupid. That's really, really stupid. Next you'll be saying that people who don't support the death penalty are condoning murder. You're presenting a false dichotomy, and it's flat out wrong.

I believe KSM should be tried and executed. I do not believe he should be waterboarded. In your narrow-minded view of things, my viewpoint is impossible to hold because if I don't want him tortured, clearly I support his actions. But I don't think you're capable of realizing why people might not want to have our government torture prisoners even if we know they're douchebag terrorists. And until you can realize why that might be, we're never going to see eye to eye.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: misle

After he was subjected to the ?waterboard? technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

Link to story

Puts a damper on the "Torture doesn't work" crowd.

Congratulations.

Conservative News Service. Propaganda, much?

BTW - Any claims regarding Abu Zubaydah are highly dubious. Too bad the CIA destroyed all of their 'proof' of his 'high value' status.

 

[jonks]

Hey TLC, people on forums love throwing around the Nazi comparisons, but this time, it's applicable. And we're the Nazis.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...-bruns-et-al.html#more

And you defend these people and call us anti-American.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You defending KSM and other scumbag terrorists puts you in the very same category. Welcome to hell with the rest of us, Harvey. Have a seat.

Saying that you don't believe the United States government should torture prisoners is not the same thing as defending the actions of those prisoners. That's stupid. That's really, really stupid. Next you'll be saying that people who don't support the death penalty are condoning murder. You're presenting a false dichotomy, and it's flat out wrong.

I believe KSM should be tried and executed. I do not believe he should be waterboarded. In your narrow-minded view of things, my viewpoint is impossible to hold because if I don't want him tortured, clearly I support his actions. But I don't think you're capable of realizing why people might not want to have our government torture prisoners even if we know they're douchebag terrorists. And until you can realize why that might be, we're never going to see eye to eye.

I'm merely using the type of reasoning PC Surgeon, Harvey, and a few others are employing. Glad you recognize how weak their argument really is. :thumbsup:

Do you, or can anyone else in here, comprehend how the interrogation techniques we used don't fall under the definition of torture? I've explained it numerous times. It's THE most important point here but it keeps getting pushed aside, likely because not a single person here has been able to argue against it. Instead all I get is people resorting to ad homs and lameass villification attempts of the very same type we always see that side employ when they're getting their ass waxed in a discussion.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: jonks
Hey TLC, people on forums love throwing around the Nazi comparisons, but this time, it's applicable. And we're the Nazis.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...-bruns-et-al.html#more

And you defend these people and call us anti-American.

Care to answer my post about the distinction between abortion and murder (and how it applies to the distinction between waterboarding and toture) instead of resorting to invoking Godwin's Law?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: jonks
Hey TLC, people on forums love throwing around the Nazi comparisons, but this time, it's applicable. And we're the Nazis.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...-bruns-et-al.html#more

And you defend these people and call us anti-American.

Couldn't be more clear. The only way to not see this is to be willfully ignorant of the facts.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

You defending KSM and other scumbag terrorists puts you in the very same category.

How am I "defending KSM and other scumbag terrorists?" I'm defending the the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including your right to be really stupid in public.

There is no credible proof KSM gave anyone ANY credible, actionable intel as a result of torture, but there' lots of authority who will tell you that he and anyone else they tortured would say anything they thought would stop the torture, true or false.

Like your EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal, you are a hopeless, immoral, unethical, pathetic individual who betrays every value enshrined in our once honored, once respected Constitution.

 

[Lemon law]

Anyone citing Godwins law is citing a very dubious contention, yes Virginia, if GWB&co wants to emulate Hitler, its totally valid to note it.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: jonks
Hey TLC, people on forums love throwing around the Nazi comparisons, but this time, it's applicable. And we're the Nazis.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...-bruns-et-al.html#more

And you defend these people and call us anti-American.

Care to answer my post about the distinction between abortion and murder (and how it applies to the distinction between waterboarding and toture) instead of resorting to invoking Godwin's Law?

You should change your name to UberFail. And you obviously have no idea what Godwin's law is other than that it has something to do with nazis. {All godwins law says is the longer an internet discussion goes on the more likely nazis will be referenced. It makes no claim as to the validity of the comparison.}

The link I posted discusses the war crimes the nazis were charged with, and their defenses. The crimes charnged and the defenses raised are nearly identical to the Bush tactics and their later defenses. It is as on-point as it is possible to be.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Claiming that waterboarding is always torture is no different than claiming killing is always murder. It's not. The law makes distinctions, just like the law is used to make distinctions about murder, it can also be used to make distinctions about waterboarding.

No, killing isn't always murder, because killing is a verb that can be accomplished innumerable ways. Slicing someone with a scalpel can either be assault with a deadly weapon, or it can be a doctor performing an operation. In other words, context matters.

No, waterboarding isn't always torture. A journalist volunteering to get waterboarded to see what it's like is not being tortured because it's not against his will, is being done at his behest, and the purpose is not to scare him into giving up information. Thus, in this context it is not torture.

But please tell me how you waterboard someone in the context of extracting information out of them and have it not be torture?

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Claiming that waterboarding is always torture is no different than claiming killing is always murder. It's not. The law makes distinctions, just like the law is used to make distinctions about murder, it can also be used to make distinctions about waterboarding.

No, killing isn't always murder, because killing is a verb that can be accomplished innumerable ways. Slicing someone with a scalpel can either be assault with a deadly weapon, or it can be a doctor performing an operation. In other words, context matters.

No, waterboarding isn't always torture. A journalist volunteering to get waterboarded to see what it's like is not being tortured because it's not against his will, is being done at his behest, and the purpose is not to scare him into giving up information. Thus, in this context it is not torture.

But please tell me how you waterboard someone in the context of extracting information out of them and have it not be torture?

the hell are you talking about?

hes volunteering to be tortured

do you recall the journalist who volunteered and what he said? he said it was torture