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Chelsea Manning on Shortlist for commutation by Obama

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desura said:
I feel sorry for him. His father was definitely a jerk. But that doesn't excuse what he did. Him being trans just goes to show the lack of judgement and unsound mind he possesses and it delegitimizes the legitimacy of any whistleblowing.

Because, let's be clear, trans is a mental illness. It isn't objectively real, it is just a manifestation of some messed up mental state. It is about as real as a tattoo is real.
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sure, let's be clear: you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
werepossum said:
Exactly. Personally I'd as soon spend seven years in prison as spend seven years expecting to be murdered while hanging out with Putin, and as far as motivation I find Snowden's motivation to be at least laudable whilst Manning's is merely revenge against everyone because he/she didn't fit in.
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I see what you're saying and I'm conflicted by both issues, but I'm not sure we should consider punishment based on the individual's motivations in their actions. At least, I am not aware of either's intent to explicityly do mortal harm to citizens or soldiers through their actions.
 
pcgeek11 said:
I thought Trans and gay are two different things.
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They are. The get confused because some gay people are quite like the opposite sex. It's really confusing because research has suggested polar opposites. One bit of research showed that the brains of gay people are somewhat hybrid between the two sexes while other research suggested that gay men can be exposed to higher levels of testosterone in the womb. And, some research has found that gay men tend to pair up in terms of a masculine partner and less masculine partner, just as the old offensive-to-most stereotype of "Who is the man and who is the woman?" suggested would be true. It may be that some gay men are biologically more feminine than the average hetero men while others are biologically more masculine. Nature is complicated.

The thing about transgenderism, though, is that a transgendered person is, in one key respect, the opposite of a gay person. While a gay person loves their sex a trans person doesn't. It's a very different experience. Only gay people can really experience the feeling of being attracted to their own bodies to a high degree. It's a unique aspect of being gay and something that has been recognized since humanity started (e.g. Narcissus). Trans and hetero people don't have that. Trans people are the furthest from it, wanting to have their bodies changed to the opposite sex.

Of course, there are gay people who seems trans (those who don drag beyond something for the occasional Halloween party) and hetero people who like to crossdress. Gender is complicated. Hetero men who crossdress, for instance, are typically more macho/masculine in look and behavior than the average hetero man.
 
Majority of Manning's sentence commuted by Obama:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/...s-bulk-of-chelsea-mannings-sentence.html?_r=0

"WASHINGTON — President Obama on Tuesday largely commuted the remaining prison sentence of Chelsea Manning, the army intelligence analyst convicted of an enormous 2010 leak that revealed American military and diplomatic activities across the world, disrupted the administration, and made WikiLeaks, the recipient of those disclosures, famous.

The decision by Mr. Obama rescued Ms. Manning, who twice tried to commit suicide last year, from an uncertain future as a transgender woman incarcerated at the male military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan. She has been jailed for nearly seven years, and her 35-year sentence was by far the longest punishment ever imposed in the United States for a leak conviction.

Now, under the terms of Mr. Obama’s commutation announced by the White House on Tuesday, Ms. Manning is set to be freed in five months, on May 17 of this year, rather than in 2045."
 
Was about to share this. Frankly, it's good news. I don't condone the indiscriminate nature of the leak, but Manning wasn't trying to betray the US -- that 35-year sentence was clearly issued out of spite, not justice. A commutation strikes a good balance between acknowledging that a crime was committed and changing the punishment to better reflect what actually happened.
 
Commodus said:
Was about to share this. Frankly, it's good news. I don't condone the indiscriminate nature of the leak, but Manning wasn't trying to betray the US -- that 35-year sentence was clearly issued out of spite, not justice. A commutation strikes a good balance between acknowledging that a crime was committed and changing the punishment to better reflect what actually happened.
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I very much agree. She has suffered more than enough and while what she did was pretty bad there comes a point that further punishment is pointless. I think in this case it would give future leakers pause (which is the whole point) without further tormenting this person. I hold this in contrast to Snowden who I believe needs to have a date with a jail cell in his future. Maybe commute his sentence too someday, but not until he pays a price for his actions.
 
Blackjack200 said:
Good to hear. Based on my reading of that article, Obama will not be pardoning Snowden, which is deeply disappointing.
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The US is not going to pardon someone who purposefully leaked large amounts of top secret material and then went to go be the guest of a hostile foreign power for several years. If he wants a pardon he's going to have to come back and face the music.
 
35 years might be too harsh, but seven feels too lenient. Just my personal feeling, not based on any historical precedents or anything.
 
fskimospy said:
I very much agree. She has suffered more than enough and while what she did was pretty bad there comes a point that further punishment is pointless. I think in this case it would give future leakers pause (which is the whole point) without further tormenting this person. I hold this in contrast to Snowden who I believe needs to have a date with a jail cell in his future. Maybe commute his sentence too someday, but not until he pays a price for his actions.
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What was the correct action for ES to take in 2013 was, given what he knew? What do you think his motivation was in leaking the documents?

fskimospy said:
The US is not going to pardon someone who purposefully leaked large amounts of top secret material and then went to go be the guest of a hostile foreign power for several years. If he wants a pardon he's going to have to come back and face the music.
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You used the word "purposeful". What was the purpose? In light of Patreaus's treatment, I don't think you can justify punishing Snowden.
 
fskimospy said:
The US is not going to pardon someone who purposefully leaked large amounts of top secret material and then went to go be the guest of a hostile foreign power for several years. If he wants a pardon he's going to have to come back and face the music.
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yeah, pretty much. Nice article comparing Ellseberg and Snowden, basically showing how not to leek sensitive information if your goal is honest transparency without compromising real lives of your real countrymen:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-edward-snowden-and-the-modern-whistle-blower

Ellseberg has already been largely vindicated as something of a hero. Snowden is probably going to go down in history as an angry amateur, not really all that concerned with integrity of mission.
 
I'm glad he commuted Manning. Snowden and Manning should've been pardoned from the start, but this is just one aspect of why Obama will never be a "great" president like FDR or even JFK. He was a doormat for the US security and surveillance deep state, to a degree that even W couldn't compare. W actually had some decent principles regarding civil liberties that Obama completely lacks.


If you have a witness to a murder at a grocery store who happened to be shoplifting at the time he witnessed the murder... do you ignore the murderer, arrest the witness and charge him with shoplifting "just to be thorough"? That is the equivalent of what Obama did with Manning and Snowden.


If they had a single actual shred of evidence that Manning or Snowden's leaks had actually resulted in the death of an American, they'd be plastering it all over the news non-stop. Fact is, they have no such evidence and they just assume that the harm was so great, it must have resulted some loss of personnel or material. There is a good reason why they never want to try these leakers in normal, open american court. They'd lose.
 
Ehh.. not a huge fan of this move. In the end, though, it's not like Manning is much of a threat anymore. He's also clearly had some issues, and I don't mean the fact that he's trans.

As for pardoning Snowden, no thanks. If he had only uncovered US surveillance on Americans, he'd have a lot more sympathy. Instead he also knowingly revealed facts about our surveillance on other countries, making him a bona fide traitor.
 
Blackjack200 said:
What was the correct action for ES to take in 2013 was, given what he knew? What do you think his motivation was in leaking the documents?
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He could have leaked information and the existence of the specific actions/programs that he thought violated the constitution, etc. Instead he stole and leaked huge amounts of information about methods, capabilities, etc. that had nothing to do with a principled stand against unwarranted government surveillance. If he had stuck to the first I would be 100% in his corner as I strongly agree with him about the surveillance state but I just can't overlook his other actions. He needs to be in federal prison.

You used the word "purposeful". What was the purpose? In light of Patreaus's treatment, I don't think you can justify punishing Snowden.
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I can't say what his purpose was to be sure, but the disclosure of the documents was pretty unarguably purposeful. As far as Petraeus goes i agree with you he got a slap on the wrist that others wouldn't be so lucky to get. That being said, the scope of his mishandling of classified material was a tiny fraction of what Snowden did. Petraeus should have gone to jail for what he did, but the fact that he didn't doesn't get Snowden off the hook IMO.
 
So does Assange follow through with his promise to waive extradition and come to the US which he promised five days ago if Obama gave Manning clemency?
 
Good. 35 years was grossly lopsided when weighed against precedent. For those thinking that she got off easy and is free and clear, I would not worry so much. Being a transwoman on the outside when you have a criminal record, everyone knows your face and millions of people hate you or want you dead is no picnic. She would live in fear even if not for the crime and controversy.
 
Sonikku said:
Good. 35 years was grossly lopsided when weighed against precedent. For those thinking that she got off easy and is free and clear, I would not worry so much. Being a transwoman on the outside when you have a criminal record, everyone knows your face and millions of people hate you or want you dead is no picnic. She would live in fear even if not for the crime and controversy.
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I agree, her life is going to be quite difficult after she gets out.
 
fskimospy said:
He could have leaked information and the existence of the specific actions/programs that he thought violated the constitution, etc. Instead he stole and leaked huge amounts of information about methods, capabilities, etc. that had nothing to do with a principled stand against unwarranted government surveillance. If he had stuck to the first I would be 100% in his corner as I strongly agree with him about the surveillance state but I just can't overlook his other actions. He needs to be in federal prison.
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In my opinion, Snowden's useful disclosures were not limited to domestic surveillance, but included the NSAs attacks on encryption, the revelation that large internet companies like Facebook and Google were sharing user information with the government, and that the NSA had hacked into Yahoo and Google datacenters, allowing them to help themselves to user information contained in them.
(per the eff https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/...dentials-help-protect-us-government-overreach)

I can't say what his purpose was to be sure, but the disclosure of the documents was pretty unarguably purposeful. As far as Petraeus goes i agree with you he got a slap on the wrist that others wouldn't be so lucky to get. That being said, the scope of his mishandling of classified material was a tiny fraction of what Snowden did. Petraeus should have gone to jail for what he did, but the fact that he didn't doesn't get Snowden off the hook IMO.
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I wouldn't argue that the disclosure of the documents was purposeful, but I would argue that his purpose was altruistic.

Our disagreement may be rooted in the way we view intelligence agencies in general, and it may be related to our disagreement on the Russian hacking issue. I see state intelligence agencies as primarily benefitting the agencies themselves and the state, and see little benefit for a country's citizens, so I tend to see anything that limits or checks the security apparatus as a good thing, and treat their claims with a lot of suspicion. If you see these agencies differently, if you see them acting faithfully in service of the American people, I can understand you seeing Snowden's leaks in very different light.

As an aside, one thing I don't blame the intelligence agencies for is the Iraq war. It seems clear to me that they were pressured to produce the intelligence to justify the war, and were not the primary drivers.
 
I dunno about this move. I'm not sure what other options were available other than wholesale commutation or pardon, but I think a reduced sentence outside of Ft. Leavenworth (reduced security women's prison) would have been sufficient. I fear people will think the sole reason for letting her go was her trans status and nothing to do with the ridiculous sentence itself.
 
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