Originally posted by: MAME
ah, I can see how that teaching them to cheat is ok could be bad.
But in reality, 90% of college students cheat and they're fine. So really they're teaching them a skill!
90% of college students cheat? wtf?
90% of college students cheat? wtf?
no i did not say teachers need a degree in every subject. READ again, carefully. I said "I don't think it's too much to ask for teachers to complete at least a couple of semesters of math instead of just some BS class just to know what they're talking about."
Liberal arts/studies is one of the easiest programs in most colleges. My statement still stands, most elementary school teachers don't know jack about math.
I live with 2 student teachers and I'll be one in the fall. Also am a member of the CTA and I know that the NCLB, aka the ESEA, is a bunch of hogwash. Besides that point though, there is no way you're going to get every elementary school teacher to be competent at every subject they teach. I always ask my roommates, of the students in their classes, how many would be good teachers and they tell me that out of the 35, 5 are too stupid and another 10 shouldn't even consider teaching. The only problem is that there is such a demand for teachers and not many people want to or can teach.
DougK62
Diamond Member
- Mar 28, 2001
- 8,035
- 6
- 81
Remember that we're talking about elementary school teachers - people that teach up to 8th grade at the most. How many schools do you know of that teach higher then basic algebra through 8th grade? I'm a CS graduate and I can run mathematical circles around most every elementary teacher that I've met. It doesn't matter - they generally know enough to do their job effectively and that's all that matters.
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: MAME
ah, I can see how that teaching them to cheat is ok could be bad.
But in reality, 90% of college students cheat and they're fine. So really they're teaching them a skill!
90% of college students cheat? wtf?
Yup, at least that's what my school's survey says. They don't cheat on every test but they've cheated at least once in college. Write answers on hand, have an old copy of the test, copy code, whatever.
90% for sure dude
episodic
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2004
- 11,088
- 2
- 81
You can't expect a teach to teach kids that don't speak English, have problems that when you and I went to school would have sent them to the resource room, and generally come from homes that parents don't care. It is impossible for a teacher to do things alone in 6 hours a day to turn a kids life around. Sure it is really sad and all - but alot of times it is not the teacher's fault. (I admit sometimes it is)
You'd understand if you had kids and tried to teach them something. And remember, that's one kid, a lot of time, and still, he/she takes awhile to learn, if at all. Heck, look at all the bad kids and bad parents. Now throw 30 of them into a classroom and you've got trouble. Then, add in some special ed students, since no one wants to teach them, add in some unmotivated kids who have short attention spans who only want to surf the web, play sports, and finally, all in some slow learners. There's only so much you can do and I really don't see a solution to it. It's probably why you get a new teacher every year and you hope you get a good one for your kid one of the years
Originally posted by: MAME
ah, I can see how that teaching them to cheat is ok could be bad.
But in reality, 90% of college students cheat and they're fine. So really they're teaching them a skill!
this is the same guy (i think) that totally would not turn in someone if they were caught cheating in a college class. i can't find the thread for the life of me.
however at the subject on hand, its horrid that this happened but i can totally see why. they want numbers and results in schools nowadays, there will be no exceptions. students can easily be left behind now if they do not reach a certain level. i wasn't surprised most of the cases cited were in poorer income areas, and the one in a nicer area (marin) was probably due to parental pressure to do well and probably suing the teacher for not "delivering" on high enough test scores.
not everyone is motivated, and so many parents can't think to possibly make their children work. so blame the teacher. teacher is trying to save their ass.
i'm thinking of maybe teaching, at the elementary level. if you all are insinuating teachers are idiots for not knowing calculus, i wonder what sort of teachers you all had sometimes... and since when they started teaching calculus IN THE THIRD GRADE. elementary teachers lay the foundation. when i got to high school i had the best calculus teacher, who would create his own homework and tests, show us how to do everything without having to use a graphing calculator and then showing us on the calculator, and actually made calculus semi interesting. if a teacher is teaching a certain level, they are expected to know that level - they do get credentials... it's the ones who have been teaching forever and basically are counting down til retirement that are frightening - became teachers because there was nothing else for them. i had a math teacher like that.
but once again, speaking to the economics of the situation also... the best teachers are those in the better off school districts... they won't stay at the lower income districts forever, especially if you have some students try to sue you for "assault" (the teach for america story... poor guy.) when you are leading them out of the classroom for being a constant disruption. pressure for results..
ok, cheating as in changing students answers or flat out giving them the answers is one thing, Telling a kid to check his answers because he obviously got some wrong is another. For kids, tests can be stressful, and they may forget soemthing. Having them go back over their answers knowing something is wrong is IMHO going to help the kids focus more when they reread the questions/answers.
I believe that is a good parctice of teaching as it is not giving the answers to a test, but more along the lines of coaching the student.
I believe that is a good parctice of teaching as it is not giving the answers to a test, but more along the lines of coaching the student.
Modeps
Lifer
- Oct 24, 2000
- 17,254
- 44
- 91
Originally posted by: ucdnam
You'd understand if you had kids and tried to teach them something. And remember, that's one kid, a lot of time, and still, he/she takes awhile to learn, if at all. Heck, look at all the bad kids and bad parents. Now throw 30 of them into a classroom and you've got trouble. Then, add in some special ed students, since no one wants to teach them, add in some unmotivated kids who have short attention spans who only want to surf the web, play sports, and finally, all in some slow learners. There's only so much you can do and I really don't see a solution to it. It's probably why you get a new teacher every year and you hope you get a good one for your kid one of the years
You've just hit the nail on the head for these naysayers. My wife teaches in a poor school district, and because of the performance of the school, it's on a cut-list to save the state money. Is this the teachers fault? According to many of you ignorant fsks in this thread, YES IT IS! My wife comes home in tears many days because of the crap she has to put up with from these 11 year olds. 3/4 of her class is attentive. They dont cause problems but are a bit slower in learning... the other 1/4 like to get up and walk around the class whenever they feel like it. They like to cat-call and say things like "I smell pu55y" when a girl walks by. THESE ARE 11 YEAR OLDS, why are they talking and acting like this? Having just 4 people in your classrom that are disruptful ruins the entire class... No matter how the "good kids" are, it doesnt matter because most of the time, the teacher is spent yelling and trying to control these bad apples.
It must be the teachers fault. Blame the teachers! It's their fault your kid is disruptful! It's their fault your child is disrespectful! When those terrible teachers call home to talk to you about your kid being a piece of crap, all you can say is "Not my Johnny! He's such a sweet boy!" or you wont even return the call. Or when you come in to pick up your kid because he was just suspended, you accuse the teacher of picking on your child.
Yeah, that's the teacher's fault alright!
Right now, I volunteer at a high school twice a week, so I can observe and see if teaching really is for me. I see the usual senioritous, but I also see violence and anger from the kids directed towards everyone else. I see kids with cell phones text messaging each other. I see kids playing flash games in their computer class. I see kids grinding on each other in the halls and kids wearing next to nothing.
I'm 26, so not that old and out of the loop, but the view is different as a mature adult than from a high school kid.
I know that when I start student teaching in the fall, I will try my best to control the 150 kids I get each day in my biology class, but there's only so much you can do when it's 150v1.
Also, at the high school I volunteer at now, so many kids have already given up on their future. I try to tell them that it's not over, never over, but they don't care to listen. I have a story about my friend who dropped out of HS, but still went to a CC, transferred to a university, and is now a doctor. It's never over.
I'm 26, so not that old and out of the loop, but the view is different as a mature adult than from a high school kid.
I know that when I start student teaching in the fall, I will try my best to control the 150 kids I get each day in my biology class, but there's only so much you can do when it's 150v1.
Also, at the high school I volunteer at now, so many kids have already given up on their future. I try to tell them that it's not over, never over, but they don't care to listen. I have a story about my friend who dropped out of HS, but still went to a CC, transferred to a university, and is now a doctor. It's never over.
Like a lot of the other comments here, I'll say that there's no excuse...but I can completely understand why it happened. Teaching is NOT as easy as people make it out to be, regardless of how challenging (or not) the college coursework might be. Especially in low-income neighborhoods, teaching is probably one of the harder professions out there, and standardized tests such as these don't help matters. If the school doesn't perform well, budget cuts come around...and that means that both teachers and administrators lose their jobs. And NO, it's not automatically their fault if the students don't do well. Hell, a lot of the students in those areas probably screw the test up intentionally just to mess with the school. Lord knows, students in my high school and middle school would've done that.
The whole system needs some serious revision, but I won't even pretend to know how to fix it all.
The whole system needs some serious revision, but I won't even pretend to know how to fix it all.
While the cheating is bad and should not be done, it's clear that most of you don't know sh*t about teaching in today's environment.
heh, i remember when I was talking to my little sister's teacher about her grades, and we were trying to calculate the possibility of her getting her grade up to a B+ by the end of the semester. The teacher gave up calculating in 2 seconds. 8th grade.
Originally posted by: Modeps
Originally posted by: ucdnam
You'd understand if you had kids and tried to teach them something. And remember, that's one kid, a lot of time, and still, he/she takes awhile to learn, if at all. Heck, look at all the bad kids and bad parents. Now throw 30 of them into a classroom and you've got trouble. Then, add in some special ed students, since no one wants to teach them, add in some unmotivated kids who have short attention spans who only want to surf the web, play sports, and finally, all in some slow learners. There's only so much you can do and I really don't see a solution to it. It's probably why you get a new teacher every year and you hope you get a good one for your kid one of the years
You've just hit the nail on the head for these naysayers. My wife teaches in a poor school district, and because of the performance of the school, it's on a cut-list to save the state money. Is this the teachers fault? According to many of you ignorant fsks in this thread, YES IT IS! My wife comes home in tears many days because of the crap she has to put up with from these 11 year olds. 3/4 of her class is attentive. They dont cause problems but are a bit slower in learning... the other 1/4 like to get up and walk around the class whenever they feel like it. They like to cat-call and say things like "I smell pu55y" when a girl walks by. THESE ARE 11 YEAR OLDS, why are they talking and acting like this? Having just 4 people in your classrom that are disruptful ruins the entire class... No matter how the "good kids" are, it doesnt matter because most of the time, the teacher is spent yelling and trying to control these bad apples.
It must be the teachers fault. Blame the teachers! It's their fault your kid is disruptful! It's their fault your child is disrespectful! When those terrible teachers call home to talk to you about your kid being a piece of crap, all you can say is "Not my Johnny! He's such a sweet boy!" or you wont even return the call. Or when you come in to pick up your kid because he was just suspended, you accuse the teacher of picking on your child.
Yeah, that's the teacher's fault alright!
Nearly identical situation here, and I couldn't have written it up better.
And to those who say "well the parents should do more" -- that doesn't work when there aren't parents, or the parents don't give a bleep. It's a situation that is far more common than you think.
Anyway, high-stakes testing will lead to "cheating" anywhere, any time, by anyone. Why is everyone so surprised? I have yet to hear of a high-stakes testing scenario which is particularly well thought-out and backed-up, including the scenario talked about in the article. Teachers' fault my arse.
Originally posted by: freesia39
Originally posted by: MAME
ah, I can see how that teaching them to cheat is ok could be bad.
But in reality, 90% of college students cheat and they're fine. So really they're teaching them a skill!
this is the same guy (i think) that totally would not turn in someone if they were caught cheating in a college class. i can't find the thread for the life of me.
I know the thread you're talking about and I think I did reply to it but I forgot what I said. But I probably would turn in someone if it was hardcore cheating.
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