Cheating or Not, who is and who isn't? ATI? Nvidia?

[cm123]

I posted some of this on another post, however I have more questions yet:

Honestly I'm not being a smart a@#, but what makes a driver change for more speed a cheat? and of course when does it not become a cheat? I could care less which company we are talking about.

Then, should a standard not be made as to what a cheat is, then as to what's not? That would end so many flames would it not?.

Would we then say that becaues of one companies choice to render a graphic different or use a different method, that may too be a cheat?

Seriously, someone explain this to me, if possible based on facts & standards.

further questions:

So if one company says "its played the way its meant to be" or whatever - and others call that cheating if there drivers to whatever (including lowering grahpics quality), why is that a cheat? Why not are we all upset that we are NOT getting the best graphics we can AND performance to boot?

Like DirectX as a standard, is there NOT a way to bench cards using the SAME (type) standards (settings or whatever -another words each card must do ALL the standards in the test period)? Then would it matter how each company meets this standard, even if driver tweaking occured, as that could be done by both sides could it not? Then if the graphics quality goes down, is that then not up to us all NOT to buy that product.


Last question I have is, for everyone (ATI, Nvidia or whatever fans), when you always say thats not a cheat, just a driver bug, isn't that as bad or even worst? The card you like won't even work correctly?

Flame away if you feel you need to, I think we are looking past the problems sometimes just to post some bitch posts about whatever product ir company we feel like at the time.

WHATS THE FIX?

 

[MercenaryForHire]

They both cheated. The end.

Thank you for not flaming.

- M4H

 

[Keysplayr]

wHO CArEs

 

[VIAN]

This is why I say that There were no rules for a cheat to be called. You can only cheat if you break rules. There were no rules or the rules were not clear.

One argued cheat: Nvidia keeps turning on their optimizer for 3dmark03. Is it all possible that Futuremark doesn't realize that it isn't a cheat and that it is an honest optimization. Why would Nvidia's compiler technology be a cheat anyway.

No consistancy is a problem. Many people have different opinions on what a cheat is. Rule breaking is the simplest form. There needs to be rules and there needs to be competition for cheating to happen.

and others call that cheating if there drivers to whatever (including lowering grahpics quality), why is that a cheat?

It's not, but some people seem to think it is. Although, I wouldn't like the graphics card to do that automatically. The good it performs or how crappy it looks should be up to the user. If I want real Trilinear, then I want real Trilinear, not Brilinear or Bilinear where Trilinear should be. It is a cheat if I set the filter to Trilinear and they give me bilinear. That is breaking the rule I just set as well as an attempt to change the definition of Trilinear.

Then would it matter how each company meets this standard, even if driver tweaking occured, as that could be done by both sides could it not?

There came a period last year where Nvidia was accused of using different settings than the ones that were defined by the benchmark. That is cheating. You are breaking the rules set forth the benchmark.

Then if the graphics quality goes down, is that then not up to us all NOT to buy that product.

This is true. However, Nvidia attempted to cheat by way of what I described above to sell more of their product while showing similar Image Quality. Similar, but not the same and noticeable side by side.

Last question I have is, for everyone (ATI, Nvidia or whatever fans), when you always say thats not a cheat, just a driver bug, isn't that as bad or even worst? The card you like won't even work correctly?

Bugs will always exist. It takes a long time to get all the bugs. Take nintendo for example. They debugged Pokemon for Gameboy, the original with a 2 tone screen, for 2 full months and still didn't get all the bugs. One or two slipped through their fingers. The code for that game is a lot smaller than any driver or PC game.

 

[nick1985]

i cant believe we are STILL talking about this. both companies cheated, END OF STORY.

 

[Regs]

This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: Regs
This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

You can beat it to death all you want, whats the solution to it all? Everyone is quick to bitch, very little has been said about a fix and about the facts, just my fav company rules, yours sucks, they cheat blaa blaa blaa. Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

 

[nick1985]

<prays that this thread gets locked>

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: cm123

Originally posted by: Regs
This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

You can beat it to death all you want, whats the solution to it all? Everyone is quick to bitch, very little has been said about a fix and about the facts, just my fav company rules, yours sucks, they cheat blaa blaa blaa. Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

Why don't you just search the archived messages in this forum for "cheat"

- M4H

 

[VIAN]

Although they both cheated, it isn't the end of story. The question isn't who cheated. This topic was a 6-12month flame war that never got resolved. People just dismissed it because they grew tired.

Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

I'm just showing examples of cheats that I know of. So far I haven't heard of ATI cheating anywhere. They may be cheating, but no one either seems to care or hasn't found it yet. The app. detection back in the Radeon days with Quake III was just app. detection to me, I don't know the specifics, so I cannot comment on this issue.

Most of the people out there don't know the specifics, yet they make claims.

 

[Blastman]

Originally posted by: nick1985
<prays that this thread gets locked>

LOL. Nicks green nose is getting twisted out of joint even more.

 

[Pete]

Cheat: only improves speed in benchmarks, not gameplay.
Optimization: improves speed in gameplay and, coincidentally, benchmarks.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Although they both cheated, it isn't the end of story. The question isn't who cheated. This topic was a 6-12month flame war that never got resolved. People just dismissed it because they grew tired.

Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

I'm just showing examples of cheats that I know of. So far I haven't heard of ATI cheating anywhere. They may be cheating, but no one either seems to care or hasn't found it yet. The app. detection back in the Radeon days with Quake III was just app. detection to me, I don't know the specifics, so I cannot comment on this issue.

Most of the people out there don't know the specifics, yet they make claims.

Exactly, it just keeps going & going & going, solution on cheating needed.

Vian, I really should NOT of used the word bashing (sorry), I should of said likes to refer (other than bashing), thats more true of the examples... again I didn't mean to pick on or flame you at all...

I've seen some posts here calling some drivers changes a short time ago for ATI cheats as well, again no matter who, what makes a cheat and all the other questions above?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: cm123

Originally posted by: Regs
This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

You can beat it to death all you want, whats the solution to it all? Everyone is quick to bitch, very little has been said about a fix and about the facts, just my fav company rules, yours sucks, they cheat blaa blaa blaa. Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

Once again, Who the F cares. except you of course.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Although they both cheated, it isn't the end of story. The question isn't who cheated. This topic was a 6-12month flame war that never got resolved. People just dismissed it because they grew tired.

Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

I'm just showing examples of cheats that I know of. So far I haven't heard of ATI cheating anywhere. They may be cheating, but no one either seems to care or hasn't found it yet. The app. detection back in the Radeon days with Quake III was just app. detection to me, I don't know the specifics, so I cannot comment on this issue.

Most of the people out there don't know the specifics, yet they make claims.

Text

now STFU, the lot of you, and take nick's advice

- M4H

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: nick1985
<prays that this thread gets locked>

I second that, all this talk of cheating is very dull.

 

[VIAN]

Cheat: only improves speed in benchmarks, not gameplay.
Optimization: improves speed in gameplay and, coincidentally, benchmarks.

Why is it that if it only improves the performance in the benchmark, it's a cheat? Why can't it do that? Suppose that the card performs above all in gameplay, but the benchmarks show the card as falling behind the competition. What then? That's not a good rule to go by.

 

[cm123]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: cm123

Originally posted by: Regs
This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

You can beat it to death all you want, whats the solution to it all? Everyone is quick to bitch, very little has been said about a fix and about the facts, just my fav company rules, yours sucks, they cheat blaa blaa blaa. Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

Once again, Who the F cares. except you of course.

Then why post? You nothing good to add anyways? It seems many care as this is a topic that never seems to going away here. So if you don't care, help find a solution other than nothing.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: VIAN

Cheat: only improves speed in benchmarks, not gameplay.
Optimization: improves speed in gameplay and, coincidentally, benchmarks.

Why is it that if it only improves the performance in the benchmark, it's a cheat? Why can't it do that? Suppose that the card performs above all in gameplay, but the benchmarks show the card as falling behind the competition. What then? That's not a good rule to go by.

Does it force a lower IQ or precision in order to perform faster? If so, it's a cheat.

- M4H

 

[VIAN]

I second that, all this talk of cheating is very dull.

I see... gee, out of the 250 channels that this digital cable has to offer, this channel sucks, but let's keep watching. Very smart.

MercenaryForHire --

Ok, that was a cheat.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: cm123

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: cm123

Originally posted by: Regs
This topic was beaten to death for the past 6-12+ months cm. You missed it!

You can beat it to death all you want, whats the solution to it all? Everyone is quick to bitch, very little has been said about a fix and about the facts, just my fav company rules, yours sucks, they cheat blaa blaa blaa. Well as I asked above, VIAN had some good points, although it seems a bit like he favors bashing just one company maybe a bit, we all say cheating or wrong doing, explain it?

Once again, Who the F cares. except you of course.

Then why post? You nothing good to add anyways? It seems many care as this is a topic that never seems to going away here. So if you don't care, help find a solution other than nothing.

The reason it doesn't go away is because no0bs keep reposting it every time the companies try to make a new hack and get busted. Then they yell "oMgZ ATI/nVIDIA is TEH CHEATX()RZ1!!!!1!!!" and flamewars ensue.

- M4H

 

[Insomniak]

There are no fucking cheats, just different methods of doing things. Either everyone's cheating or no one is. My opinion if the situation is that at the moment, ATi's methods result in a better product.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
There are no fucking cheats, just different methods of doing things. Either everyone's cheating or no one is. My opinion if the situation is that at the moment, ATi's methods result in a better product.

They can put in all the "tweaks" they want - just so long as the end-user has the option to disable that sh!t.

- M4H

 

[Matthias99]

Honestly I'm not being a smart a@#, but what makes a driver change for more speed a cheat? and of course when does it not become a cheat? I could care less which company we are talking about.

Then, should a standard not be made as to what a cheat is, then as to what's not? That would end so many flames would it not?.

Would we then say that becaues of one companies choice to render a graphic different or use a different method, that may too be a cheat?

I almost have to define two kinds of cheating now. First, there's 'performance' cheating, where you do things that trade image quality for framerates (like not doing true trilinear filtering, etc.). All the major video card companies have done this, and continue to do this, although with varying degrees of success and/or noticeability. Then there's 'blatantly disregard the developer's intent' cheating, as NVIDIA did and seems to continue doing with 3DMark03.

Ignoring the second category (since it depends on what 'rules' the developer of an application/benchmark sets), something can by definition only be a 'cheat' if it does not produce a correct image during rendering. If it produces the same image, but runs faster, it's an optimization. Now, the argument comes in when you get situations where you can trade a little bit of IQ for a lot of performance; is it worth it? Should they just put that in the drivers and silently do it? I'd prefer if they left a way for users to disable such 'optimizations', but they don't always do that. Unfortunate, but such is the computer industry.

[/quote]

Cheat: only improves speed in benchmarks, not gameplay.
Optimization: improves speed in gameplay and, coincidentally, benchmarks.

Why is it that if it only improves the performance in the benchmark, it's a cheat? Why can't it do that? Suppose that the card performs above all in gameplay, but the benchmarks show the card as falling behind the competition. What then? That's not a good rule to go by.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with improving performance in benchmarks, but if a driver optimization ONLY improves performance in benchmarks, the rational explanation is that they're detecting the benchmark and doing something differently there (which is what keeps getting NVIDIA in trouble). Now, if a benchmark focuses extensively on one particular function of a card, it's possible you could make general optimizations that affect the benchmark but not general gameplay. But when someone is talking about general 'benchmarks', they usually mean things that stress the GPU as a whole (like Aquamark, 3DMark01/03, in-game benches), and not something like Shadermark that only uses certain functions of the GPU. I find it difficult to believe you could (without app-specific optimizations) significantly improve performance in 3DMark or Aquamark without also improving real-world game performance by a similar amount.

 

[Evdawg]

who CARES?!