Chavez has helped reduce the poverty of venezuela by actually making sure money from oil sales goes to social programs, not right back to the hands of the IMF and World Bank. CIA tried to overthrow him back in 2002, but the strength and will of the venezuelan people could see through it and gave the finger right back to the CIA and their puppets. Chavez is an inspirational man, who puts the interest of his country and people ahead of that of the globalists.
Chavez has helped reduce the poverty of venezuela by actually making sure money from oil sales goes to social programs, not right back to the hands of the IMF and World Bank. CIA tried to overthrow him back in 2002, but the strength and will of the venezuelan people could see through it and gave the finger right back to the CIA and their puppets. Chavez is an inspirational man, who puts the interest of his country and people ahead of that of the globalists.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
I think I am going to be sick. This is just wrong.
I appreciate the fact that you know what is going on but can't you have a bit of..consistency? *facepalm*
I need a beer now.
If you ever get the chance watch this Irish documentary
"THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED"
http://video.google.com/videop...id=5832390545689805144
"THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED"
http://video.google.com/videop...id=5832390545689805144
I think myself and every other P&N-er can come together on a thread like this.
K3N is a uniter!*
*uniting against his bat-shit crazy conspiracies
K3N is a uniter!*
*uniting against his bat-shit crazy conspiracies
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
This is very recommended, but...ok I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
Off to the bar for a stiff drink. This is just one of those days I guess.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Chavez is an idiot. He knows nothing of Obama!, First of all, Obama is really the only survivor from the Roswell crash. Secondly, as president, he will disable NORAD so his fleet can come in. Someone has a tape of Obama speaking to them saying not 'whitey' as proported but 'we kill' - It's all over for us if we allow him to become president!
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
I guess I was wrong all along, Chavez dances naked with the rest of the power elites around trees late at night and worships satan, no wonder he knew the smell of sulfur.
(I always thought it was because bush ate chili dogs again that day before going to the UN!)
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
- 86
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Keep the language under control, Lemon. 'Declaring war' is wrong and reckless and just fuels the irrational people to think it's fine to act if it were war against Chavez.
Any concern we should have about our government overthrowing democracy there to try to remove Chavez in a coup, any concern about siding with the oligarchy there against the interests of the broader public - whatever Chavez's flaws, he has improved things for the poor - are not concerns when it's 'war'.
Calling his opposition to some US policies 'war' is legitimizing every time the US has used its military or money to put down any left-wing government for some trumped up reason, from Allende to Ortega to Grenada. You are the 'enemy of peace and left-wing pogress' to push that language and view.
I think there's some good to have really independant power distribution, whatever Chavez's flaws. You even implicitly endorse 'might makes right' by saying that the merits of the issues should be secondary to the fact that the '800 poound gorilla' will just ignore the 'ant'. Now that's the way to set good policy and relations. Heck, that's how JFK did it, when he referred to the ant... oh, wait.
No he didn't, he suggested the same land reforms, apparently, that Chavez finally adopted as a matter of social justice, and showed respect for the 'ants' with the Alliance for Progress, turning around our relations with the South American nations from how mobs attacked Nixon's limousine, to such good relations that they reliably supported the US position on most issues not because they were forced to but because the US had temporarily stopped abusing them as much and treating them as 'ants'.
Indeed, excellent progress such as Chile's growth of a liberal democratic culturee and the moveemnt to end the exploitave arrangements to extract their main resource could be said to come from those cultural changes - until the US corporations got someone back in power who would and did 'do something' about it, installing a terror regime (and right-wing, exploitave economics).
The fact that I agree Chavez seems to be making a mistake in not approaching Obama in a friendlier way doesn't change the fact that another Pinochet move - the 'war' you talk about - would be immoral and harmful to the interests of the Venezuelan people and I think to our own interests as well, when you understand them better than saying 'let's get their oil as cheap as we can whatever harm is needed to do it'.
Chavez has also made some overtures that are friendlier, saying he hopes for improved relations. Hopefully Obama can approcah him on those. It comes down to their both doing the right thing - Obama has unfortunately shown a tendency to appease the wealthy, and Chavez may be tempted to use the 'monster' of the US to help him consolidate power even with a better regime in place.
But those who are against Chavez are largely unaware and unconcerned with the problems before Chavez and the issues of the poor and social justice there, so the discussion is pretty pointless, since for them it's limited to either Chavez as the enemy (and war or covert war or whatever are ok) or Chavez starts singing praises for the US and doing what the US corporations want, more as a puppet than a democratically elected leader should.
I'm wondering if Chavez isn't trying for some negotating leverage, which might be pretty misguided as an approach, but he's not known for diplomacy.
This is where a greater nation and leader can help steer things the right direction and not act in the same bad way.
Let's move away from the 'death squad' and 'banana republic' culture and towards a situation with respect for democracy and social justice. I think both sides will benefit.
The right seems to have a hard time understanding that it's often as simple as using a bad tactic - excessive force and arm twisting - makes things worse. They tend to look at the US using that tactic and then invent a reason why it was the right thing to do - must have been some evil force who wouldn't work with us - and they don't realize that it might just have been an idiotic tactic used by thuggish people who were doing wrong and created enemies.
If their next door neighbor wants a new fence and comes over with his shotgun, shoots their dog and says we're putting a new fence in or I'll burn down your house, and then when you respond with hostility blames you for the need for him to use the shotgun, that might be an analogy to help with why the thug approach isn't best. The issue of the fence is forgotten as the issue becomes the force and hostility between the two sides. He might pay for the fence and you burn it down because of the conlict when you would have agreed.
For Americans, 'United States' has just good connotatins. It's hard for them to understand people who have a different history, who see the US as bringing oppression and violence.
Those perceptions might even been incorrect - we're talking about relatively uneducated populations who can be fed some inaccurate information - but there's a reason why across the region people had pictures of John Kennedy on walls and thoiugt well of the US from his different approach. And I'm not giving Kennedy credit for choosing morality over our financial interests - he did not have to make that choice. He understood simply that he could have both by abandoning misguided approaches.
You won't see Kennedy referring to there being 'war' because an elected leader there was an opponent of some US policies, even if he was as strong a critic as Chavez.
Indeed, Kennedy averted some real wars by replacing the US insistence on a right-wing puppet who had legitimate enemies in the public, with being willing to work with actual 'non-aligned' leaders. Again and again he spoke of the importance of respecting the independance of other nations - which in turn made those other nations view the US as an ally.
In all the talk on Chavez, I dojn't recall one post from a right-winger ever discussing, 'maybe Chavez has some legitimate concers with the US?'
And that's the thing showing how the 'ant' views are creating problems, creating 'war'.
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