Chavez on the warpath - Venezuela seems to be girding for battle with Colombia

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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While we await the Great Decider to announce his latest strategy for Afghanistan next week, it might also be time for him to consider conflicts in the Western Hemisphere as well.

He might interrupt his latest golf game, put off signing autographs for the Hollywood crowd, suspend his pardoning another turkey or al-Quaeda miscreant to focus a few precious moments on Venezuela.

The kill count is ratcheting up on the Columbia/Venezuela border and the increased presence of 15,000 Venezuelan troops backed up by an arms pipeline funded by "a $2.2-billion line of credit from Moscow to buy 92 Russian-made T-72 tanks as well as a long-range Russian anti-aircraft missile system" is likely to result in a very hot war indeed.

Colombia, a U.S. ally, does not have the military wherewithal to hold off a Venezuelan invasion, though they may make it a costly one for Chavez over time. To remove a Venezuelan incursion will likely require U.S. intercession and the Colombians are hoping the U.S. will be there if they are needed.

Our President is working on getting his golf handicap way down in his first term in office so it is uncertain how much help the Colombians will actually get if the tensions go hot. The least he should do is pay a little attention this time.

*********************

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/11/24/chavez-on-the-warpath/

Chavez on the warpath
Venezuela seems to be girding for battle with Colombia

by Luiza Ch. Savage
Tuesday, November 24, 2009
MACLEANS

Even as Barack Obama continues to consider deploying more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, another conflict involving U.S. soldiers has been intensifying in Washington’s own backyard. Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez has recently exceeded his traditional incendiary anti-American rhetoric with talk of war with neighbouring Colombia, a long-time U.S. ally which since 2000 has hosted U.S. troops as part of an anti-drug effort. Chávez has gone so far as to mass 15,000 soldiers on his border with Colombia, where in recent weeks there has been a spate of slayings related to tensions between Venezuelan and Colombian paramilitary groups. On Nov. 8, he ordered his military to prepare for possible armed conflict. “The best way to avoid war is preparing for it,” Chávez told officers on a weekly TV and radio program. Of the U.S., Chávez said, “The empire is more threatening than ever,” and warned Obama to not “make a mistake” in ordering an attack on Venezuela.

The object of Chávez’s fury is an agreement signed on Oct. 30 between the conservative government in Bogotá and Washington that will increase access to seven Colombian military bases for U.S. troops, aircraft and warships assisting Colombia with its struggle against drug traffickers. The 10-year agreement does nothing to change a U.S. law that limits U.S. military personnel and contractors in Colombia to 1,400. While Álvaro Uribe’s government said the agreement limits American activity to Colombian territory, it has made neighbours nervous about American intentions, with Brazil, Bolivia and Ecuador expressing concern. Chávez has gone further, condemning the deal as a step toward launching a military offensive against Venezuela, and claiming that the bases would be used for espionage purposes against his regime.

It has been a rapid turnaround by Chávez regarding the new U.S. administration. In April, at the Summit of the Americas in Trinidad, Obama and Chávez met for the first time and exchanged handshakes and pats on the back. Chávez gave him a book about American interference in Latin America, while Obama pledged a new era of respect. But those positive atmospherics have dissolved. Chávez is now calling on Obama to give up his Nobel Peace Prize. “The United States government is a champion of cynicism, and Obama should give up his prize in the name of dignity, decorum and respect,” said Chávez. Of Obama’s promise of “change,” he declared, “What changes? The coup in Honduras, the bases in Colombia, the U.S. Navy presence in the Caribbean? This is a threat to peace in Latin America.”

It’s hard to tell how seriously to take Chávez’s latest bluster. After all, this is the man who called George W. Bush “the devil.” Most observers agree that he is trying to rally his country against a foreign enemy in order to distract his people from major problems at home. In addition to high crime and unemployment, Venezuelans are suffering from mounting shortages of electricity and water rationing, despite the country’s oil, gas and coal wealth. Chávez has taken to touting conservation. In October, he urged citizens to limit their showers to three minutes. “I’ve counted and I don’t end up stinking,” he said. “I guarantee it.” Says Michael Shifter, vice-president of Inter-American Dialogue, a think tank in Washington: “He is aware that things are not going well and he is not able to govern the country effectively, and that is reflected in poll numbers of declining support. This is a convenient way to divert attention and try to rally the country behind a national cause.”

However, the sabre-rattling is coming in the midst of a massive arms buildup. Chávez said in September that his government has received a $2.2-billion line of credit from Moscow to buy 92 Russian-made T-72 tanks as well as a long-range Russian anti-aircraft missile system. Chávez said the acquisitions were in response to the U.S. threat, but the U.S. State Department said the buildup outpaced all other Latin American countries, and threatened regional stability by potentially setting off an arms race in the region. Chávez has also been making Washington nervous by developing a friendly relationship with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Earlier this month, the Chávez government announced it is co-operating with Russia to develop a nuclear energy program, and that it is receiving help from Tehran to locate uranium reserves within its borders.

Meanwhile, the situation on the Colombian border, a shadowy zone where drug smugglers and anti-Bogotá Marxist FARC rebels are active, has already been violent. Two Venezuelan national guard soldiers were shot near the border in early November (authorities blamed right-wing Colombian militias). And 11 people, mostly Colombians, had been killed in October; they were believed to be members of paramilitary groups, possibly killed by leftist rebels. Venezuela’s vice-president, Ramon Carrizalez, said the killings were part of a “destabilization plan linked to the base agreement with the U.S.”

Some in Washington warn that Chávez’s posturing should not be dismissed precisely because of the volatile situation at the border. “This is something that should be taken very seriously,” says Roger Noriega, the former assistant secretary of state for western hemisphere affairs and a former U.S. ambassador to the Organization of American States. “With elements of two countries on a border, the sort of irregular forces that operate across that border—be that the FARC or paramilitaries—could draw these countries into a confrontation that neither one needs.”

The U.S-Colombian agreement, negotiated under the Bush administration and completed under Obama, allows the use of the bases for counter-narcotics and counter-insurgency activities in Colombia. Shifter says that the deal was instigated by Bogotá. “The Colombians are feeling nervous and they really pushed for it. The U.S. went along,” he says. The agreement does not oblige Washington to provide any military support to Colombia should Venezuela move against it, says Shifter—though Colombians like to think it will, especially given evidence that Chávez is giving sanctuary to the FARC, and allowing them to regroup on Venezuelan territory. (Computer files and emails captured in a raid on FARC rebels in Ecuador last year provided evidence of military and intelligence officials in the Chávez government helping the insurgents.)

“The agreement was sold that way, and I think a lot of Colombians believed that there would be a greater chance that the U.S. would respond,” says Shifter. “That it would be like NATO. The U.S. might or might not, but there is nothing in the agreement that obliges them to.” Nonetheless, he predicts that with or without the agreement, “I think if it was clearly an aggressive act by Chávez, the U.S. would come to Colombia’s aid. It wouldn’t stand by. The U.S. would be forceful in trying to stop the hostilities.”

Noriega, the former Bush administration official, doubts whether Obama would have the “stomach” for a military entanglement in Latin America. But the prospect of one is enough to make countries already apprehensive about the U.S.-Colombian deal even more nervous. Indeed, a major problem with the agreement seems to be the way it was rolled out—with insufficient explanation and assurances to neighbouring nations such as Brazil to counter concerns and opposition. “There wasn’t any sinister motive here, but it was badly managed by both the U.S. and Colombia,” says Shifter.

The Obama administration has so far reacted to Chávez’s bluster by calling for international mediation to help Venezuela and Colombia resolve their border troubles. “We are very much aware of recent tensions along the Venezuela and Colombia border,” said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley. “I certainly don’t think this is about the United States, but we certainly would encourage dialogue between Venezuela and Colombia and a peaceful resolution of the situation along their border.” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is expected to make a trip to the region soon, with a particular interest in shoring up relations with Brazil.

So far, Chávez has rejected the idea of dialogue. This week he called his Colombian counterpart Uribe a “mobster” and said there was no possibility of negotiations with the “treasonous” government in Bogotá. He added, “He will be considered by history to be a disgraceful leader who turned his homeland over to the Yankees.”

Noriega says there should be more international pressure on Chávez, and more support from U.S. allies for America’s role in Colombia’s war on narco-trafficking. “I think, frankly, the U.S. should step forward and—with its neighbours, not the least of which would be Canada—say everybody needs to recognize the U.S. has a tangible relationship with Colombia and interests there,” he says. Noriega adds that the Obama administration should do more to “call attention to the threat that Chávez represents, and put some of our neighbours on the spot to take a position on these things before it’s too late and punches start flying.”
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Cool, we get to test our latest military equipment without risking American lives plus it will destabilize Venezuela and speed up the demise of Chavez. If things start to go south we can park some Navy Warships out of reach of any of their batteries and bomb the crap out of them with Cruise Missiles. Regarding th arms pipeline from Russia, that's not a problem, a Blockade would take care of that.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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The Columbian army is mostly volunteer and well equipped. I think they would make a mockery out of a conscript army that is equipped with 40 year old tank designs and most likely a WWII era battle plan.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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The Columbian army is mostly volunteer and well equipped. I think they would make a mockery out of a conscript army that is equipped with 40 year old tank designs and most likely a WWII style battle plan.
Correct. Also consider that the Colombians have battle tested Soldiers and even more important Generals as they've been fighting a war with the Communist Guerrillas for decades. In addition the Colombians Air Force would have no problem taking out the Oil Facilities of Venezuela which would cripple Venezuela's economy. And if they couldn't do it we could.

You wingnuts frightened to death of Chavez for some unknown reason should hope he's stupid enough to invade Colombia.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Tension between Columbia and Venezuela have been simmering for many many years.

And when it comes to being a blustering motor mouth, Chavez may be close to the equal of Achmadinejad. To foreign countries, their bluster may sound ridiculous, but we still have to understand its more directed at domestic consumption.

Personally I doubt verbiage will escalate to an actual full blown war, but if it does, the I am pretty sure the US military already has the contingency plans in place and so do various regional diplomats.

I could be wrong about the full blown war part, but I have a lot more faith in Obama Clinton than I would in GWB Cheney response. And as Red Dawn points out, this is practically in our Navy's back yard.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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I thought Venezuela had some of the latest and greatest Russian and Chinese gear.

In any case, this has nothing to do with us or Obama but thanks for the parting shot OP.

I wish you all a very Happy Thanksgiving.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Venezuela has upgraded some of their military with newer Russian and Chinese stuff, but the army remains a poorly trained involuntary conscript group. Chavez knows that attacking Colombia would be a certain death warrant. Not only would Colombia itself likely kick his ass, but it would give the US a valid excuse to go in as a response to a cry for help from an ally (Colombia). The Chavez regime would come to an end in a very big hurry. The US could smack him around without risking any US soldiers using airpower, naval power and providing assistance to the Colombians.

Nope, the reality is that Chavez periodically likes to saber rattle a little, which usually tends to shore up some support for him among the population. Whenever a country perceives a foreign threat, they tend to rally around the current leader.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
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Our President is working on getting his golf handicap way down in his first term in office so it is uncertain how much help the Colombians will actually get if the tensions go hot.
Oh, you mean, like Ronald Reagan? http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blyreagan21.htm
Or George HW Bush? http://homepage.mac.com/wbwip/saratoga/auction06/100bushgolfdigest.jpg
Or George W Bush for that matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3p9y_OEAdc

Soo... Stones and glass houses and alla that, y'know?

The least he should do is pay a little attention this time.
I'm sure Obama would thank you for your - undoubtedly well-meant, but ultimately unneccessary - attempt at armchair quarterbacking if only he read this message board, but since he's an intelligent, well-educated university and law school graduate with a long work experience in a variety of capacities including charity, business and public service, I'm sure he's on the ball on this and many other issues.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Oh, you mean, like Ronald Reagan? http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blyreagan21.htm
Or George HW Bush? http://homepage.mac.com/wbwip/saratoga/auction06/100bushgolfdigest.jpg
Or George W Bush for that matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3p9y_OEAdc

Soo... Stones and glass houses and alla that, y'know?


I'm sure Obama would thank you for your - undoubtedly well-meant, but ultimately unneccessary - attempt at armchair quarterbacking if only he read this message board, but since he's an intelligent, well-educated university and law school graduate with a long work experience in a variety of capacities including charity, business and public service, I'm sure he's on the ball on this and many other issues.

Don't try to reason with that Jagoff it's impossible.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I thought Venezuela had some of the latest and greatest Russian and Chinese gear.

In any case, this has nothing to do with us or Obama but thanks for the parting shot OP.

I wish you all a very Happy Thanksgiving.

Bullshit. This has everything to do with Chavez trying to dictate to Colombia who it can and cannot allow on their soil via military base contracts. This issue directly involves our nation since he is using our base deal with Colombia to start this war and cause trouble throughout the region.

So fuck that two bit commie bastard and all his supporters.

If he starts a war it'll be his first and last one that is for sure that is unless Obama sides with him which could happen being that he is a leftist cuddlier (See Zeyala the failed commie president for life).

Of course Chavez is creating this scene to cover up the disaster that is his communist/socialist agenda in his nation. This is going to back fire big time if there is no quick victory for his rag tag army of conscripted peasants driving 30+ year old Russian tanks and planes. Eventually people will get fed up with his bullshit and the fact that he created a war he could not win. Then hopefully Chavez will end up swinging off a lamp post like all dictators should end up doing.
 
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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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It would be easy as hell for the US to help colombia repel a venez attack. Anyway we've seen this sabre rattling before and it's going to take more than 92 tanks to make this a successful mission.
unless Obama sides with him which could happen being that he is a leftist cuddlier
If Obama sided with Chavez he'd be the only politician in all of DC to do it; won't happen.

Of course being the oil-drunk consumer whores that we are we don't actually want to see Venezuela actually hurt and not cranking out our drug of choice, do we?
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
I doubt that Chavez is that stupid. He's just going to supply the FARC with weapons and let them do the dying and killing.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Colombia, a U.S. ally, does not have the military wherewithal to hold off a Venezuelan invasion, though they may make it a costly one for Chavez over time. To remove a Venezuelan incursion will likely require U.S. intercession and the Colombians are hoping the U.S. will be there if they are needed.

Help the battle-hardened professional Colombian army against the shambles of a Venezuelan conscript army? After decades of dealing with FARC, it's hilarious to think they need anyone's help to get this job done. How, exactly, did you draw your conclusions about Colombia not being able to hold Chavez off?

Venezuela and Colombia: Jaw-jaw war

In any conventional war, Colombia’s army would surely win. It has been hardened by American aid and training and years of action against the FARC guerrillas. Venezuela’s only hope would be a quick air strike, using recently acquired Russian Sukhoi jets. It has doubtless occurred to Colombian officials that the presence of Americans at their main air bases might cause Mr Chávez to think twice before launching such a strike.

According to Alberto Müller, a retired general and former leader of Mr Chávez’s United Socialist Party, Venezuela is waging “a different kind of war”, for public opinion rather than territory. If so, Mr Chávez seems to be losing it. In a recent survey by Datanálisis, a polling firm, 80% of respondents opposed a war with Colombia, and a big majority opposed trade sanctions. To complicate matters further, several million Colombians live in Venezuela. Across the border, Mr Chávez’s constant threats seem to have caused Colombians to rally round their president, Álvaro Uribe, who may run for a third term in May.

Venezuela will hold a legislative election in September. Mr Chávez appears to be seeking an external enemy to distract attention from mounting problems, ranging from regular electricity blackouts to inflation and public-spending cuts.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Get a clue, if it ever comes to an all out war, regardless which side we support, its not going to do anything to fix the underlying problems.
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,695
1
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BS.

it's the US that's on the warpath, setting up bases in Colombia. the prize is Venezuelan oil - among other things.

the US sets up bases in a country bordering Venezuela, and behaves antagonistically toward Colombia (e.g. US backed coup attempt in 2002). if you were the president of Venezuela, what would you do ?
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
BS.

it's the US that's on the warpath, setting up bases in Colombia. the prize is Venezuelan oil - among other things.

the US sets up bases in a country bordering Venezuela, and behaves antagonistically toward Colombia (e.g. US backed coup attempt in 2002). if you were the president of Venezuela, what would you do ?

Are you smoking crack or just delusional? The US had bases in Colombia loooong before Chavez came to power. Chavez has shown himself to be a dangerous socialist/communist dictator, and he's been massing troops on the Colombian border and threatening military action. The US -- at least up to this point -- has not been involved in this stuff.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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0
Looks like the Little Dictator is stocking up on more toys for Christmas. I wonder if the fireworks are for New Year's?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9CEQGF82&show_article=1

Chavez: Venezuela acquires thousands of missiles

Dec 7 08:13 PM US/Eastern

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - President Hugo Chavez said Monday that Venezuela has received thousands of Russian-made missiles and rocket launchers as part of his government's military preparations for a possible armed conflict with neighboring Colombia.

"They are preparing a war against us," Chavez said during a televised address, repeating a charge he has been making for months. "Preparing is one of the best ways to neutralize it."

Both Colombia and Washington deny having any plans to attack Venezuela, but Chavez argues they are plotting together a military offensive against Venezuela. Chavez says his government is acquiring more weapons as a precaution.

"Thousands of missiles are arriving," Chavez said. The former paratrooper-turned-president did not specify what type of missiles, but said Venezuela's growing arsenal includes Russian-made Igla-1S surface-to-air missiles and rocket-propelled grenades.

Chavez, who has been feuding with Colombia for months, claims an agreement between Bogota and Washington allowing the U.S. military to increase its presence at seven Colombian military bases poses a threat to his country. Colombia says the deal is only to help it fight the war on drugs and insurgents inside its territory.

Chavez also said Monday that Russian tanks, including T-72s, will be arriving "to strengthen our armored divisions."

Venezuela has bought more than $4 billion worth of Russian arms since 2005, including 24 Sukhoi fighter jets, dozens of attack helicopters and 100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles. In September, Russia opened a $2.2 billion line of credit for Venezuela to purchase more weapons.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Cool, we get to test our latest military equipment without risking American lives plus it will destabilize Venezuela and speed up the demise of Chavez. If things start to go south we can park some Navy Warships out of reach of any of their batteries and bomb the crap out of them with Cruise Missiles. Regarding th arms pipeline from Russia, that's not a problem, a Blockade would take care of that.

I like Red's thinking. Test, weaken, profit.

That's what Reagan did with Iran Iraq to keep them out of our hair.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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There's good - things like helping win WWII, except we stayed out for years after it started; we, England and France each had 2 to 3 percent of the allied casualties (USSR 65%, China 25%, roughly).

And after the US pushed Japan by denying them the chance to grow their trade, cutting off all their oil spply. Funny how the history books in our schools don't quite emphasize those numbers.

We have said a lot about freedom that has had some benefit in pointing out others' wrongs.

On the bad, we've had policies to create, undermine, replace, assassinate, influence, train and sponsor terrorist forces, and more causing tyrrany in dozens of countries, with milllions killled.

Sometimes we've opposed dictators, other times kept them in power, depending on our interests.

Some Americans don't understand this because they are convinced like Children on Santa that we're 'the good guys' in all our policies, never guilty of more than being forced to compormise trying to do good.

If the governmet says who is the good and bad guy, they accept it without question, not getting informed.

Our government has done good and bad. Those who are ignorant but insist it doesn't do bad are the enemy of the nation that needs its citizens to actually hold it accountable to not do wrong.

The comparison you ask for won't show what you think it will.