Charity system?

[godforbids]

Hi folks. I'm volunteering to help set up some PCs for a local women's shelter. I haven't asked about their budget or desired features but I know they want as least basic office and web browsing functionality. My guess is the budget will be small so this all about cost effectiveness. Here's my (modest, old) system as a more-than-acceptable-performance baseline:

H77M // i5-3470
8GB DDR3@1600MHz
850 EVO 250GB

I don't know how to compare my specs to devices in the UCFF/SFF/NUC/mini-PC class, or even lower-power modern desktops. Question: where's the bang for the buck in the industry now? All the tiny PCs AT has reviewed seem overpriced or insufficient but they are mostly focused on the gaming or HTPC use case. I'm open to this thread being moved is this isn't the right venue.

 

[MongGrel]

Go for it I guess.

Not sure what response you want, but more power to you, donate it.

 

[godforbids]

Um, I'm volunteering to build the PCs or choose them, not pay for them.

 

[JWade]

you can get refurbished C2D systems here for under $67

http://arrowdirect.com/search?q=#/?_=1&page=1&filter.category_hierarchy=Desktops&sort.price=asc

if they are budget constrained, might be the best option for them

 

[godforbids]

I appreciate the suggestion. I assume that after an SSD, monitor, I/O devices, etc. this wouldn't save much over an OEM box with modern HW? I know C2D is decent but I'd like to get something that will last so refurbs may be out.

 

[Kaido]

If it were me, I'd buy a bunch of Chromebases (AIO like an iMac, but with Chromebook guts) & get some Kensington locks so they don't grow legs. Zero support required (especially antivirus!), self-updating, & thanks to modern web apps, you can do just about anything online you need to (banking, gDocs, email, photos, social media, etc.). Setup a locked admin account as the primary & then have everyone sign in as Guest, that way when they log out there's no history issues to worry about (i.e. other users getting other people's information). $349 online, although they go on sale for less than that from time to time:

http://www.amazon.com/LG-ChromeBase-22CV241-W-22-Inch-Desktop/dp/B00JR625WO

Plus it's just a power cable & Wifi connection (unless you want to run Ethernet, which I would recommend...then you don't have to worry about ever updating the Wifi password for security reasons either). Otherwise you're going to have to get a keyboard, monitor, mouse, speakers, computer box, tidy the cables, and then handle the OS, security, user accounts, feature lockdowns, networking, updates, and so on...versus just slapping in some Chromebases & being the hero. Depends on how much work you want to do & what their budget is. I used to point everyone in the directions of Macs for convenience, but now I tell them to get a Chromebase instead (or a Chromebook, if they need portability, or a Chromebox, if they just want to replace their existing tower).

I mean, there are a lot of cool tiny computers out. MINIX has a great one for around $160, but you still need a monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc., plus minimal space on the SSD. The next generation of Cherrytrail computers are coming out & we'll be seeing more boxes with 64 gigs minimum instead of the 32 they all come with now, which is extremely tight. But then you also have to worry about managing Windows, because people download crap all the time & get tons of spyware and viruses, so it becomes a maintenance issue that someone knowledgeable has to be on the hook for. Plus someone has to clean out the computer when it gets dusty, do Windows updates, renew the antivirus license, and so on. So that's something to think about!

 

[Blue_Max]

Dangit... lost my whole post when I voted. Oh well, 2nd attempt will be easier to read anyway.

(VERY good point about user accounts above!)

I voted to build, but bear in mind you may be called in to service it if anything goes wrong one day. Dell/HP/Lenovo business systems are more expensive because they come with warranty services.

That said, there are some great options with bang-for-the-buck performance.
There are Intel 'integrated solutions' with CPU & mobo as a prepackaged combo and offer decent performance for office style apps. I'd prefer a full, modern dual-core Pentium (or i3. I think i5 is overkill and wasted money) on a basic-but-latest motherboard for only a little $more than the integrated ones.

Some boards come with wi-fi, something I almost hadn't considered. That's a good value... but low-profile wifi cards are also pretty cheap.

I don't recommend the above poster's suggestion of an all-in-one machine though. Too hard to service if only one part gets broken, especially a scratched/smashed LCD.

Shelter patrons can be temperamental and feeling desperate and will sometimes abuse or steal things. A micro-sized system is too easy of a target for both. In-Win (check Newegg) makes some great, affordable mATX cases with small-but-reliable power supplies. A low-profile one will fit nicely under the monitor.

I was originally going to steer you away from SSD, but considering the machines may get slapped around a bit, it's good to avoid mechanical drives easily damaged by that sort of thing. Don't bother with high-speed, expensive SSD's though - even the slowest SSD will be MORE than fast enough for the use it will be getting. You need a longer warranty and lots of read/write reliability instead. A slow 256GB drive beats a fast 120GB in this case! (MeanTimeBeforeFail numbers are good to check - and read the user reviews of drives you're thinking of.)

...and don't forget DVD-RW drives as they will very likely be needed! If you're going to service these machines, be prepared to replace those a bit more often and maybe even buy in bulk for cheap. Maybe even provide some 100x stacks of blank DVDs and paper envelopes for the patrons to use - VERY cheap data storage for people with almost nothing, let alone USB flash drives.

Good on ya!

 

[Kaido]

(VERY good point about user accounts above!)

I voted to build, but bear in mind you may be called in to service it if anything goes wrong one day.

...

...and don't forget DVD-RW drives as they will very likely be needed! If you're going to service these machines, be prepared to replace those a bit more often and maybe even buy in bulk for cheap. Maybe even provide some 100x stacks of blank DVDs and paper envelopes for the patrons to use - VERY cheap data storage for people with almost nothing, let alone USB flash drives.
!

That's the thing...it all depends on how much after-support you want to provide. If it's a fun hobby thing for you, then by all means go for it. But there's so much that can go wrong with computers. Just supporting my family used to be almost a full-time job until I got them switched over to Macs & eventually Chromebooks/Chromebases, and now I rarely get support calls/emails/texts/etc. The ones who HAVE to have Windows get a strong antivirus package & a lifetime license for Malwarebytes, along with Google Chrome as their default OS & a master image on my NAS for restoring when they get zapped by a virus anyway :biggrin:

I think the ideal setup would be:

1. Buy Chromebase computers ($350)
2. Buy Kensington locks ($25)
3. Run dedicated Ethernet lines to each computer
4. Create a master admin account (womenssheltertech@gmail.com) & lock anyone from adding more accounts, then just have everyone log in as guest. Or if you want to get tricky with it, set it up in Public Kiosk mode.
5. Laminate a 3x5" instruction card to (1) click on "Login as Guest" into the computer, and (2) logout when finished (Guest Mode on Chromebooks is basically like Incognito on Chrome, nukes your data when you leave). If you use Public Kiosk mode, you can also setup scheduled times for automatic reboots, so you can both log anyone who may have left their stuff up out nightly & also automatically install the latest Chrome updates.

Unless a piece of hardware breaks, that's a completely set & forget type of setup. Some additional ideas:

1. Setup a maintenance schedule for someone onsite: check each computer say monthly to make sure it works, wipe down the screen/mouse/keyboard with cleaning wipes & disinfectants, etc.
2. Provide a training sheet (laminated) on how to setup a Gmail account so people can get their own email account, use Google Docs, Google Voice, and so on. Something a help worker there can walk a visitor through if they're not too tech-savvy.
3. Buy a bulk box of memory sticks to provide to people as needed (ex. for resumes & whatnot). A pack of 8-gig sticks works out to a few bucks each, or even cheaper if you buy a big bulk box online.

There's not much a Chromebase can't do for the average computer user other than CAD, video games, and video editing. You can login to your bank, credit card, taxes, email, voice chat, video chat, word docs, spreadsheets, Facebook, etc. all from the web these days. No maintenance on your part unless one of the machines fail, then it's just a re-order and quick kiosk setup, or ordering some more USB sticks or cleaning wipes. Easy peasy, and on a good budget too!

 

[K7SN]

Argh - need more information like maximum amount of potential users at one time; can you only hook one machine to the internet or to you need a network. Good used C2D are cheap, open office is an answer, a network is the major expense and providers want to be paid every month. What kind of shelter is it? Are they potential users looking to get a data entry job or to find a lawyer?

Good working three year old dells might be donated to a shelter so setting up a network and loading open office might be all you would need to do.

 

[jsalpha2]

A refurb i3 system from the site JWade referred to will run almost anything. Look at the $150 price range. The HP COMPAQ ELITE 8100 series are reliable. (They are a business model with a smallish power supply-not good for gaming, but fine for standard usage.) You can pick up a monitor, keyboard and mouse for $75 to $100 if you look around. I see no need for a SSD. Also they may need a networked laser printer.(Black and white only)

Check out the computers at the public library for an idea of a baseline machine. The main thing is to have a system restore set up so all you have to do is pop in a flash drive and reboot to reset to pristine condition.

For software, LibreOffice has replaced OpenOffice. Install a good free AV. Try to find a good freeware resume tool. Add Firefox or Chrome, delete the shortcut for IE. Fill the bookmarks with helpful links. Then clone the system.

Ask for help. Make a letter (on the shelter's letterhead if available)(let them know the size of the shelter and how many units you can use) and send to the six most likely big businesses in the area asking for some of their old equipment, not money.
Send a copy to Dell, Microsoft and a few others as well. Maybe nothing, maybe you get lucky.

 

[Binky]

For ultra cheap (but stealable), maybe you could test run a few Raspberry pi2's running raspbian. You could try the new Win10 for the Pi too, but I have zero experience with that.

The beauty of this setup would be zero maintenance and easy recovery from failure. You could build a base OS as you want it, then clone it endlessly. OS corrupted, just pop in a new SD card. Hardware fails, just drop another $35 board in. No moving parts, tiny size, and tiny cost.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Prebuilt Atom 2015s with Windows 10 go for $150 now:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2447754

Use a permanent marker to write the charity name and email on the case to make them less attractive to thieves.

 

[Blue_Max]

For ultra cheap (but stealable), maybe you could test run a few Raspberry pi2's running raspbian. You could try the new Win10 for the Pi too, but I have zero experience with that.

The beauty of this setup would be zero maintenance and easy recovery from failure. You could build a base OS as you want it, then clone it endlessly. OS corrupted, just pop in a new SD card. Hardware fails, just drop another $35 board in. No moving parts, tiny size, and tiny cost.

...just add a Kensington lock and/or bolt it to the desk.

 

[cbn]

I appreciate the suggestion. I assume that after an SSD, monitor, I/O devices, etc. this wouldn't save much over an OEM box with modern HW? I know C2D is decent but I'd like to get something that will last so refurbs may be out.

I have bought three desktops from Arrow Direct so far (all machines were spotless inside, so I assume they do inspect for failing caps etc) and have been happy with what I have received.

Each comes with a new keyboard and mouse (so part of the I/O cost you mention would be taken care of) and the ones I bought had Windows 7.

So if the budget turns out to be really small that is probably a good direction to go.

My only concern would be the amount of RAM the machines ship with, those boxes usually come with 1 or 2GB. Fortunately I can tell you HP branded Micron 4 x 1 GB DDR4 kits usually sell for $12 to $16 shipped on ebay. So upgrading to 4GB should be cheap enough, but make sure the model you buy has four DIMM slots. (Some machines like the Dell Optiplex 3xx only come with two dimm slots).

For the CPU, I would get a machine that supports 45nm processors (eg, Dell Optiplex 755 (with bios update), 760, 780 or if buying HP dc5800 (with BIOS update), dc7800, dc 7900, elite 8000 etc) and upgrade to a E8400 if necessary (these processors start @ $7 shipped on ebay now). If the machine only supports 65nm Core 2 processors (eg, HP dc5700, HP dc7700) they buy the E6850 on ebay for $7 shipped.

E8400 or E6850 with 4GB RAM will provide a good office and internet browsing experience.

 

[Denly]

PreBuild.

Get a SFF C2Q/1st gen i3/i5 4gb ram with kb/ms for under $200 landed.

There are also MS non-profit lic you can take adv of.

I work in the field, PM me and I can hook you up.

 

[cbn]

That's the thing...it all depends on how much after-support you want to provide. If it's a fun hobby thing for you, then by all means go for it. But there's so much that can go wrong with computers. Just supporting my family used to be almost a full-time job until I got them switched over to Macs & eventually Chromebooks/Chromebases, and now I rarely get support calls/emails/texts/etc. The ones who HAVE to have Windows get a strong antivirus package & a lifetime license for Malwarebytes, along with Google Chrome as their default OS & a master image on my NAS for restoring when they get zapped by a virus anyway :biggrin:

I think the ideal setup would be:

1. Buy Chromebase computers ($350)
2. Buy Kensington locks ($25)
3. Run dedicated Ethernet lines to each computer
4. Create a master admin account (womenssheltertech@gmail.com) & lock anyone from adding more accounts, then just have everyone log in as guest. Or if you want to get tricky with it, set it up in Public Kiosk mode.
5. Laminate a 3x5" instruction card to (1) click on "Login as Guest" into the computer, and (2) logout when finished (Guest Mode on Chromebooks is basically like Incognito on Chrome, nukes your data when you leave). If you use Public Kiosk mode, you can also setup scheduled times for automatic reboots, so you can both log anyone who may have left their stuff up out nightly & also automatically install the latest Chrome updates.

Unless a piece of hardware breaks, that's a completely set & forget type of setup. Some additional ideas:

1. Setup a maintenance schedule for someone onsite: check each computer say monthly to make sure it works, wipe down the screen/mouse/keyboard with cleaning wipes & disinfectants, etc.
2. Provide a training sheet (laminated) on how to setup a Gmail account so people can get their own email account, use Google Docs, Google Voice, and so on. Something a help worker there can walk a visitor through if they're not too tech-savvy.
3. Buy a bulk box of memory sticks to provide to people as needed (ex. for resumes & whatnot). A pack of 8-gig sticks works out to a few bucks each, or even cheaper if you buy a big bulk box online.

There's not much a Chromebase can't do for the average computer user other than CAD, video games, and video editing. You can login to your bank, credit card, taxes, email, voice chat, video chat, word docs, spreadsheets, Facebook, etc. all from the web these days. No maintenance on your part unless one of the machines fail, then it's just a re-order and quick kiosk setup, or ordering some more USB sticks or cleaning wipes. Easy peasy, and on a good budget too!

Kaido, have you had a chance to compare other Linux Kiosk software like Webconverger?

 

[Blue_Max]

Checking out all the systems on Newegg USA... here's a few gems!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883148236 HP Debranded Desktop Computer 012-011 A4-Series APU A4-5000 (1.5 GHz) 4 GB DDR3 500 GB HDD -- only $90!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA42K32K8852
HP Compaq 8000 Elite Small Form Factor Desktop PC (R2/Ready for Reuse) with Intel Core2Quad@2.66GHz, 4GB RAM, 160GB HD and licensed Windows 7 Home Premium from a Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher -- $115

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5963CM6614
DELL Optiplex 790 Small PC Core i3-2120 3.3Ghz, 4GB, 80GB, No Software, No Windows, 1 YEAR WARRANTY -- $190 (that warranty is a good factor)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883282168
HP Compaq 8200 Elite Desktop PC with Quad Core i5-2400 3.10GHz (3.40GHz Turbo), 4GB RAM, 250GB HDD, DVDRW, Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit -- $199 (minus $20)
[I love these 8200 Elite minis... great machines!]

 

[cbn]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883282168
HP Compaq 8200 Elite Desktop PC with Quad Core i5-2400 3.10GHz (3.40GHz Turbo), 4GB RAM, 250GB HDD, DVDRW, Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit -- $199 (minus $20)
[I love these 8200 Elite minis... great machines!]

Anandtech reviewed that machine:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4867/hp-compaq-8200-elite-ultraslim-the-littlest-desktop

Interior shot:

Back panel I/O:

Idle power: 20 watts.

Nice Machine.

 

[Blue_Max]

Some build ideas:

One of the several styles of affordable In-Win mATX cases with power supply and good user ratings (and chosen for exposed DVD drive for less confusion)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811108196 -- $48

Class 1: BIOSTAR NM70I-1037U Intel Celeron 1037U Dual-Core 1.8GHz Intel NM70 Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU/VGA Combo -- $75
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138393

OR

ASRock Q1900B-ITX Intel Celeron J1900 2.0GHz Mini ITX Motherboard/CPU/VGA Combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157497&cm_re=intel_combo-_-13-157-497-_-Product (4 slower cores but no fans.) -- $65 (-$10)

(just add wifi card if necessary)


Class 2: ASRock H81M-ITX/WIFI LGA 1150 Intel H81 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard -- $63
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157530
Then add Intel 1150 processor... dual-cores start at $50 but go up quickly.

Awesome deal on a 240GB SSD! $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226679

Then just add a DVDRW for $10

So $200-250 builds a pretty decent new system that should be a very snappy performer for web/office apps...


...but it's tough to beat some of those prebuilts I mentioned earlier for LESS money, better processor AND Win7 license. (You could add the linked SSD and still be around $250 with an i5!)

 

[JWade]

I like on those HP elite mini's that they have a mxm slot for a video card

 

[VirtualLarry]

Some build ideas:
Awesome deal on a 240GB SSD! $70
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226679

Then just add a DVDRW for $10

So $200-250 builds a pretty decent new system that should be a very snappy performer for web/office apps...

I could maybe see using an SSD for a PC for the shelter's Admin staff, but for just a PC for use by their clients, I think a regular HDD would be fine. See my thread in Hot Deals for a $14.99 FS 160GB "refurb" WD HDD, that appears to be new and has 0 POH. $15 is a lot cheaper than $70.

 

[sm625]

This is a perfect application for refurb machines. Go with mid towers or SFF, no need to go smaller than mATX. And if upgrading to a SSD, keep it at 128GB or even 80GB used Intel X25.

 

[Kaido]

Kaido, have you had a chance to compare other Linux Kiosk software like Webconverger?

I've played with a few, as well as Windows in locked-down mode. Half the story is hardware...even if you get a cheap refurb machine, you still need to buy a monitor/keyboard/mouse/speakers separately, and run a ton of wires for everything, and then you have an OS to deal with, plus configuration. And then if anything goofs up with the Linux install, you're then on the hook for support, plus if any of the hardware fails, you have to replace that too (or just leave them hanging, haha).

Windows gets even more complicated because you can easily end up with a spyware-ridden machine that steals people's data & no one has a clue, and that's even if you lock it down pretty well. With the Chromebases, it's a cheap AIO with reliable hardware. You could probably save some money going with something like Raspberry WebKiosk, a Pi setup, and a monitor/keyboard/mouse/speakers, but you're still going to be paying at least $150 to $200 per machine, and for $150 more you can get a Chromebase that won't give you any major headaches down the road.

On the flip side, it is fun to tinker with stuff, and sometimes you have to make due with what hardware is available. The hard thing to think about is not just the extras that you need, like monitors (which add to the overall cost), but also support down the road...it's fun to put projects like this in, but it can be a headache to have to pop in & tweak constantly when you just want to do a one-time hardware/software/effort donation.

 

[Blue_Max]

I could maybe see using an SSD for a PC for the shelter's Admin staff, but for just a PC for use by their clients, I think a regular HDD would be fine. See my thread in Hot Deals for a $14.99 FS 160GB "refurb" WD HDD, that appears to be new and has 0 POH. $15 is a lot cheaper than $70.

Ordinarily I'd agree... I just thought worst-case scenario of people getting rough with the machines.

Of course, I think now that if it's a low-profile box under the monitor - it's the monitor more likely to take abuse just because of visibility and location. Off-lease 17" 4x3 monitors should be good and cheap... definitely stockpile those! Better yet, if those monitors have USB hubs on them, you can put the computer out of sight.

(A tower computer beside the screen will attract more unwanted attention than a little one under the monitor would.)

I was going to suggest locking machines up in a cabinet elsewhere and using long cables but I remember how ridiculously overpriced those cables were.

Hey, another thought... what about a single multi-core machine powering several users at the same time? Might need 2-3 cheapo video cards powering 2-3 monitors each... but would one $1000 machine be better than 5 users with their own $200 dedicated machine?

Hmmm.... poor redundancy factor though. If the one died, EVERYONE is out of luck. Scratch that.

So how good are those Raspberry Pi 2's (or similar) cheapies at running browsers and office apps? I'm curious and will start scouring for reviews.

 

[cbn]

Hey, another thought... what about a single multi-core machine powering several users at the same time? Might need 2-3 cheapo video cards powering 2-3 monitors each... but would one $1000 machine be better than 5 users with their own $200 dedicated machine?

I was actually thinking about that earlier today.

1.) Maybe take one refurbished Dell Precision T3500, HP Z400, or Lenovo S20 LGA 1366 Workstation and either use a Nehalem 4C/8T or Westmere 4C/8T or 6C/12T Xeon processor and load up with RAM (12GB to 24GB depending on the number of users).

(Alternatively, if more RAM capacity and/or PCIe slots were needed a 2P LGA 1366 workstation could be used. This possibly with only one socket populated with a processor)

2.) Find a new motherboard that has a lot of PCIe x 1 slots (preferably open ended ones) for video cards.

With that mentioned, one thing to consider is the price of the video cards. Even entry level cards aren't that cheap these days and going by this explanation here (each seat would need its own video card). However, I would hope that a new $30 HD5450 or $15 refurb Geforce 9300 (that needs DMS-59 cable) works well enough in Linux for h.264 decode (saving CPU cycles on a new modern build during multi-user video sreaming) or that some even lower cost surplus Pre-H.264 decode PCIe video cards could be sourced for a multi-seat LGA 1366 system (the LGA 1366 Xeon processors are pretty beefy and should be to handle multiple user video decode without the help of H.264 on the video cards).

P.S. Would be great if multiseat Linux Kiosk software could be found.