Change of Topic: LCD release path for next few months

[jjzelinski]

Dungeon fog is exactly what is bringing me to my knees right now

 

[Starbuck1975]

Went searching for the Samsung 226BW, and couldn't find any local retailers selling it.

I did stumble upon the Gateway FPD2275W...my first impression was that it looked much better than any other 22" I have seen...will have to read up more on this LCD.

 

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Went searching for the Samsung 226BW, and couldn't find any local retailers selling it.

I did stumble upon the Gateway FPD2275W...my first impression was that it looked much better than any other 22" I have seen...will have to read up more on this LCD.

uses the same panel all other 22"'s have, I ended up buying the Gateway 24" but was looking at the 22" seriously. Best Buy has the 22" on demo, image looked killer. I know people here tend to really hate on all 22"'s but I don't see how anyone could say it's a bad screen.

 

[Starbuck1975]

uses the same panel all other 22"'s have, I ended up buying the Gateway 24" but was looking at the 22" seriously. Best Buy has the 22" on demo, image looked killer. I know people here tend to really hate on all 22"'s but I don't see how anyone could say it's a bad screen.

That was my impression as well...I saw the Gateway 22" at Best Buy, setup right next to the gateway 24". I honestly could not tell a difference, with the expeption being that the 24" did have better viewing angles...but I cannot think of many scenarios where I need to view my screen from an angle.

In terms of clarity, color, bleeding, etc...the 22" and 24" were nearly identical...the 24" did seem a bit "brighter" but that is about it.

Going to a Dell kiosk today to view their LCDs in person for the first time.

At this point, it is probably a toss up between the Samsung 226BW, Gateway 22" and Dell 22"...or I may still go 24" if Dell runs a killer special on the 2407.

 

[chizow]

The Samsung 226BW can be found at Circuit City if you have one near you. Sounds like they've implemented a lottery lately though, either their own Samsung TN or a lower quality AUO TN. No way to tell from the outside, only on the back of the panel.

I'd stay away from the Dell E228WFP. Unless their build quality has improved drastically, its definitely a step-dwon compared to the other 22" you're looking at. Going to the kiosk is a good idea, if they actually have it there (they didn't went I went to check at my local kiosks).

Heard good thing about the Gateway and the new LG 226W and Viewsonic also seem comparable to the better 22"s. The Dell 2407 saw a recent price drop to $699, so if you can catch a 10% promotion + a 10% coupon you can get it for $570 or so + tax which is pretty sweet.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Went to the local Dell kiosk today, and they had the 2407 and 2007wfp...both looked very impressive, and the 2407 is perhaps the best LCD I have ever seen. It also confirmed my suspicion that the 2407 is too much monitor for me...unfortunately they did not have the 22" available for viewing.

If I were to go 24", it would probably be the Dell 2407 hands down.

As for 22", I wish the kiosk had the E228WFP. It may be a step down, but it is also priced, on sale, nearly $150 cheaper than other 22" LCDs. However, as I said previously, the Gateway 22" did impress me...I went to Circuit City, and they did not have the Samsung 226BW...when I inquired about it, the kids working the LCD area all had that deer in the headlights look...which is why I typically don't bother with brick and mortar stores.

However, there are numerous CompUSAs around me going out of business, and all carry the Gateway 22"...if I can catch one at 20-30% off, the decision is made right there.

 

[CloE]

isn't it painful to watch DVD on these huge LCD with 1900x1200? I can't stand the image quality of regular dvd movies on my dell 2007wfp, because the movies are designed for TV, not high res screens.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CloE
isn't it painful to watch DVD on these huge LCD with 1900x1200? I can't stand the image quality of regular dvd movies on my dell 2007wfp, because the movies are designed for TV, not high res screens.

It depends a lot on the quality of the source DVD and the software player (not nearly as much). Some movies look great, like the LotR extended versions, but some look pretty bad, even newer movies like Batman Begins. There's just a big difference in the quality of the encoded source material or even the amount of data being decoded. I'll check later on to see how much bandwidth is being used in PowerDVD in different movies, but I'd expect there to be a pretty big difference between LotR and a lower quality/older DVD.

An upscaling DVD player outputting to 1080i would probably look better than any software decoder, but I haven't bothered hooking mine up to my 24" yet. HD cable in 1080 looks incredible though, so I'd expect similar from an upscaled DVD player.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Well I finally located a Samsung 226BW, and honestly, I wasn't that impressed...since looking at the S-IPS or S-PVA panels out there, a TN LCD looks a bit...faded.
Viewing angles don't bother me, but the colors and clarity were definitely sub-par to the 24" panels I have seen out there. Of the 22" LCD offerings out there, I would say LG>Samsung>Gateway>Viewsonic>Dell.

Of course, I was also impressed with the Dell 2007WFP that I saw at their kiosk, and since the revisions, this LCD might be back on the interest list...plus their return policy and warranty beats anything else out there at base price.

I still think 24" is too much LCD for me, and given lag concerns and GPU constraints, I may be stuck with going 20.1"

Does anyone know if any of the LCD manufacturers intend to start releasing S-IPS or equivalent 22" monitors? I may delay my purchase if a wave of better quality 22" LCDs hit the market.

 

[Matt2]

Anyone who thinks a TN panel even comes close to S-PVA/S-IPS quality either doesn't care or doesn't know what they are looking for.

Maybe it's cause I went from a TN panel to an S-IPS, but the difference to me is like night and day. Even going from S-IPS to S-PVA was difficult on my eyes for a week or so.

You couldn't pay me money to go back to TN.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Matt, what S-ISP panel are you running?

The only confirmed S-ISP panel I have seen is on the NEC 20WMGX2. I probably would have purchased that monitor long ago were it not for the price point, and the flimsy menu buttons.

 

[QueBert]

Originally posted by: Matt2
Anyone who thinks a TN panel even comes close to S-PVA/S-IPS quality either doesn't care or doesn't know what they are looking for.

Maybe it's cause I went from a TN panel to an S-IPS, but the difference to me is like night and day. Even going from S-IPS to S-PVA was difficult on my eyes for a week or so.

You couldn't pay me money to go back to TN.

depends on what you're use to. I could easily say the same thing about going from my Diamontron to a LCD, my Gateway 24" has what is considered a good panel. But next to my CRT it's pure crap, if my CRT hadn't died there is zero chance I would have willingly went to an LCD.

the Gateway 22" is a TN, and I saw it next to the NEC, there was some differences (I messed with both for a good 45 minutes) but it was far less then I experienced from going CRT to LCD.

you couldn't pay me to go LCD, but size & power consumption are more important than image quality, so I really didn't have a choice. Unless you consider buying a possibly used, or later make (IE CRAP) CRT. LCD = m3h! for everything besides text, doubt that will ever change.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Matt2
Anyone who thinks a TN panel even comes close to S-PVA/S-IPS quality either doesn't care or doesn't know what they are looking for.

Maybe it's cause I went from a TN panel to an S-IPS, but the difference to me is like night and day. Even going from S-IPS to S-PVA was difficult on my eyes for a week or so.

You couldn't pay me money to go back to TN.

In all fairness, the newer TN panels aren't nearly as bad as some of the older ones. I looked at a Samsung 226BW a few times and the viewing angles/color shift/color accuracy were much better than the Dell E228WFP I started out with in my latest monitor adventure. Typically these newer panels advertise 3000:1 contrast and 2ms response compared to the older ones that are closer to 800 or 1000:1 with 2-6ms response.

Also, I've got a hunch Dell is going to be using the new Samsung 24" TN panel in their 2407-HC, which might very well be the best gaming LCD in that size category. If its similar or better than some of the best 22" TNs (LG, Samsung, Gateway), it would be pretty appealing to those who want performance closer to a CRT. Don't expect expensive tech like S-IPS to creep upwards, it looks like TN is going to take over in every size category.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I found another Best Buy that had the LG 226WT actually hooked up to a dedicated PC...it made a much better impression than seeing the same monitor on the LCD wall of screen saver goodness.

One concern I have with 22" LCDs, or any widescreen for that matter, is scaling.

Does anyone know if the LG 226WT and Samsung 226BW have 1:1 pixel mapping? I have seen the "stretching" effect of some games that don't scale well to widescreen...I know there are forums out there that offer scaling fixes for most games, but I also want the option to run a game at 4:3 on a widescreen should there not be a suitable work around to prevent scaling issues.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I found another Best Buy that had the LG 226WT actually hooked up to a dedicated PC...it made a much better impression than seeing the same monitor on the LCD wall of screen saver goodness.

One concern I have with 22" LCDs, or any widescreen for that matter, is scaling.

Does anyone know if the LG 226WT and Samsung 226BW have 1:1 pixel mapping? I have seen the "stretching" effect of some games that don't scale well to widescreen...I know there are forums out there that offer scaling fixes for most games, but I also want the option to run a game at 4:3 on a widescreen should there not be a suitable work around to prevent scaling issues.

Pretty sure that's driver dependent, so you should be fine with the 7900. NV recently got 1:1 fixed with the 8800s and I get black bars on the side running 1600x1200 now. I don't think that requires 1:1 pixel mapping on the panel but I do have it activated.

Brings up another benefit though of the 24" panels. You can run 1600x1200 and only lose 160 vertical bars of resolution on both sides. With a 22", the closest you'd get is 1280x1024 with some vertical and horizontal on all sides.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Brings up another benefit though of the 24" panels. You can run 1600x1200 and only lose 160 vertical bars of resolution on both sides. With a 22", the closest you'd get is 1280x1024 with some vertical and horizontal on all sides.

Which brings us full circle back to the GPU issue...I know my 7900GT KO is capable of running at 1600x1200, but doesn't mean I am going to get framerates worth a damn.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Ugh...I still can't find an LCD that I like.

I was at Fry's after work today, and had some time to play with a number of different LCDs. Here are the monitors I have considered:

20WMGX2: Love the depth and vibrancy of the colors, and assume that is due to it using an S-IPS panel. However, at a nearly $600 price point, wish it were 22". Also don't really need the speakers, and the menu buttons feel awfully flimsy. Also, I don't think this LCD supports 1:1 pixel mapping.

Samsung 226BW: I was ready to pull the trigger on this monitor, until I saw it set up today at Fry's next to the 20WMGX2. They actually had games installed on both PCs attached to the monitors, and there was no comparison in the experience. Also, no 1:1 pixel mapping.

Dell 2007WFP: Have seen this LCD at a Dell kiosk, and while I like it, I don't want to play the Dell lottery to get an S-IPS panel, R04. The Dell warranty is attractive as well.

Dell2407WFP: Love this monitor, but afraid that 24" is too much LCD for my GPU. Also don't require the media card reader.

I guess the point I am at now is that I want an LCD suitable for gaming, with the color depth and vibrancy of the NEC 20WMGX2, but larger than 20.1"...which probably means S-IPS panel...although I know that the latest trends are all going towards the lower cost TN panels. Price point I am willing to spend at is $500. Don't need USB hubs. Don't care about stand adjustability. Simply want a high quality panel that has a response time suitable for gaming and 1:1 pixel mapping.

I know LCD models keep getting better every year, and the Spring is when many new models hit the market.

Are there any LCDs on the horizon that are worth waiting for? I am not desperate to pull the trigger, and can wait for a model to come out that appeals to me.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Shameless bump...see previous post.

 

[kmmatney]

Give up on the 1:1 pixel mapping requirement. Almost no LCDs do that, and your video card should be able to handle that. I've had no trouble with 1:1 pixel mapping with my last few NVidia cards (ATI cards have trouble last I tried, though). In any case, you are just limiting yourself with this requirement. The Dell LCDs (FP2007, FP2407) are the only ones that I know of that have built in 1:1 pixel mapping.

 

[gramboh]

I've got a 2407WFP in the mail right now and will be using an 8800GTS to drive it. Does ForceWare 97.92 in XP32 support 1:1 or do I need to use a beta 100.xx driver?

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Ugh...I still can't find an LCD that I like.

I guess the point I am at now is that I want an LCD suitable for gaming, with the color depth and vibrancy of the NEC 20WMGX2, but larger than 20.1"...which probably means S-IPS panel...although I know that the latest trends are all going towards the lower cost TN panels. Price point I am willing to spend at is $500. Don't need USB hubs. Don't care about stand adjustability. Simply want a high quality panel that has a response time suitable for gaming and 1:1 pixel mapping.

Are there any LCDs on the horizon that are worth waiting for? I am not desperate to pull the trigger, and can wait for a model to come out that appeals to me.

A girl once told me "It's better when you wait" and eventually, I stopped waiting and moved along... :brokenheart:

What you want doesn't exist. S-IPS is becoming limited to higher-priced monitors. Even the LG (LG-Phillips is the biggest S-IPS panel maker) new 24-inch monitor doesn't use their own 24-inch S-IPS panel, but AU Optronic's P-MVA panel.

If you want to take the chance of waiting for a better 22-inch panel, there have been rumors of an AU Optronics P-MVA panel in that size for some time, but no confirmation.

24-inch is not "too much" monitor. It just requires getting used to and maybe viewing from a bit farther. If you are ready to wait, 24-inchers are going to drop down in price significantly until the end of 2007, as competition increases in that size.

As an interim solution, you can always downscale a game to 1280x800 or 1680x1050 on a 24-inch monitor if 1920x1200 is too hard on your current videocard. You will probably go through a couple of videocard upgrades while still using a no-compromise 24-inch widescreen.

Try to have a look at the new LG 24-inch w P-MVA panel. You will love it, but probably be able to buy the Dell for less, even though the latter has USB ports and card readers.

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: kmmatney
Give up on the 1:1 pixel mapping requirement. Almost no LCDs do that, and your video card should be able to handle that. I've had no trouble with 1:1 pixel mapping with my last few NVidia cards (ATI cards have trouble last I tried, though). In any case, you are just limiting yourself with this requirement. The Dell LCDs (FP2007, FP2407) are the only ones that I know of that have built in 1:1 pixel mapping.

Dont forget my trusty Gateway 24"! 1:1 pixel mapping FTW!

EDIT: Starbuck, YHPM

 

[n7]

Why are you hung up on 22" over the glorious NEC 20WMGX2 20"?

You realized you're just getting bigger pixels w/ the 22", which means a less sharp image.
That being said, it is a bit easier for reading on the 22s if you're too lazy to increase DPI or font size.

I'd suggest a 24" TBH.

I will not be buying another TN ever again, unless they become drastically better.

You can always run games at a lower rez on the 24", & you'll have a lot more viewing area than the 22s.

The BenQ & Gateway 24s seem to be the best, & LG has their new L246WP out, which seems to be pretty much the same as the excellent BenQ, minus a few inputs.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You can always run games at a lower rez on the 24", & you'll have a lot more viewing area than the 22s.

Here is where I get confused, and hence my hang-up on 1:1 pixel mapping.

I know that my GPU probably can't handle a 24", but perhaps a mistake on my part to choose a lower quality LCD based on a component that I will have to upgrade in the next year regardless...and my next GPU will be able to handle 24" of LCD goodness.

But, for the time being, I thought if you run a 24" LCD at lower than native resolution, you can encounter a variety of scaling issues?

 

[BassBomb]

Scaling on high end LCD's is much better than low end. Especially when you stick to the same ratio at least.

1:1 pixel mapping is a non issue for non 8800 users on XP. You can always set your nvidia card to not scale anything and allow black bars. I do this on my NEC 20WMGX2.

But I also upscale it for some games, because it does not look that bad.

Running at lower res always depends on the LCD. 1680x1050 shouldnt be too bad on 1920x1200