Cell Processor is Dead to IBM

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
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It looks like bad news for cell development. The processor is going to end up being more niche that IBM / Sony anticipated. IBM is stopping development of the cell although they will continue to make it for Sony. I guess this means, other than gaming on the PS3 / PS4 nobody will develop for it?

Do you guys think Sony will go with a more conventional architecture now that IBM is out. If they did, this would greatly help developers and I would assume more developers would make Sony games (ie. Valve).

http://www.playstationuniversity.com/ibm-cancels-cell-processor-development-1295/
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
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i would think sony would learn from the mistakes and build a normal processor with identical cores for their next console.

but they won't, because it wouldn't adequately fuel their hype machine.

edit: EMOTION ENGINE!
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
From what I heard, programming the Cell processor was a pain in the ass. I'd imagine that game developers won't miss it.

I also haven't seen any official announcements for the PS4 yet. Unless they said otherwise already, I'd imagine that they'll go back to a more traditional processor design for next generation console.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Problem is that they're already committed with Cell. If they want backwards compatibility for PS4, the complexities of Cell likely guarantee they'll need something similar in PS4 to play PS3 games.

They should have never gone with Cell in the first place, and to right the ship they just might have to give up backwards compatibility.
 

herkulease

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
3,923
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Problem is that they're already committed with Cell. If they want backwards compatibility for PS4, the complexities of Cell likely guarantee they'll need something similar in PS4 to play PS3 games.

They should have never gone with Cell in the first place, and to right the ship they just might have to give up backwards compatibility.

already planted those seeds if you will with stripping out ps2 bc on the ps3.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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already planted those seeds if you will with stripping out ps2 bc on the ps3.

Oddly, I wonder if that's the reason they are not seemingly doing anything to hurry up and bring PS2 software emulation to the PS3. Hardware is more than capable of running the software to do so.

Interesting to think of it like that. They might just completely give up for this generation, then maybe bring back BC in the PS5 (PS4 BC).

OR, they could do like the PS2 did, and the PS3 originally did... include a cheap Cell/RSX chip.

Maybe offer that as THE only difference between two launch SKUs. And continue to keep two SKUs throughout the generation, whenever a console refresh is released, both SKUs get the refresh, so maybe would be a $50 or $100 difference, with the more expensive offering complete BC, including PS3, PS2, and PS1.

Actually. Sony: DO THAT. Best SKU strategy possible. Consoles are exactly the same, so from a development standpoint, there is no hassles. One SKU features something some people will want, one SKU just removes that feature for those that do not, and brings t he cost down for those consumers who do not want it. Pay for the features you want IMHO, that's how it should work. Well, a single feature is up to choice, but it's a big feature for some. And since your including the feature, include the entire feature, full BC with past generations. At that point, it should be complete software emulation anyhow, and maybe software emulation that utilizes an included Cell/RSX chip so PS3 emu is hardware, PS2/PS1 is software.
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
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already planted those seeds if you will with stripping out ps2 bc on the ps3.

This is what I'm thinking too. I think they will scrap the cell for a future PS4. They then will encourage people to keep buying a PS3 with some limited downloads of their most popular titles. This will be similar to what they did the PS2 / PS3. I am sure most developers will silently rejoice after hearing this news.
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
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Isn't the Cell processor pretty badass in terms of power? That's what I had always heard anyway.

If not, what was ever so special about it?
 

SneakyStuff

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2004
4,294
0
76
i would think sony would learn from the mistakes and build a normal processor with identical cores for their next console.

but they won't, because it wouldn't adequately fuel their hype machine.

edit: EMOTION ENGINE!

Nono, blast processing!!! :p
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
2
81
Isn't the Cell processor pretty badass in terms of power? That's what I had always heard anyway.

If not, what was ever so special about it?

Yes, but it has always been a PIA for developers to program for. The majority of developers have not take full advantage of the cell, that why many multi-platform games run better on the 360.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
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From what I heard, programming the Cell processor was a pain in the ass. I'd imagine that game developers won't miss it.

I also haven't seen any official announcements for the PS4 yet. Unless they said otherwise already, I'd imagine that they'll go back to a more traditional processor design for next generation console.

The cell processor was a real win for a very limited subset of tasks. It ate through ray tracing like no other processor, too bad GPUs are taking over that task now.

BTW, just because IBM is getting off the cell bandwagon, doesn't mean Toshiba and Sony have to. Still, IBM's next processor has 4 threads per core, right? Seems like 16 thread quad core, or a 32 thread octocore would really eat into the few things cell is good at.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
I guess Sony just wanted their hardware to sound cool...Technical wise, doesn't it make more sense for PS3 to like, use a x86 out-of-order CPU that everyone is familiar with?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
The PS2 was also difficult to program for but that didn't stop people from making games from it.

precisely. For developers, choosing to develop for Sony has always been hard to say "awesome!"... both the PS1 and PS2 were renowned as being the most difficult consoles to develop amongst the other consoles of their generation.

However, they have all had a great OMG FEATURE, that while on its own was never truly OMG-worthy, but it would captivate people in a way understood only by those with ADD.
Oooo shiny!
PS1 had CD-ROM games, which meant larger textures were more possible compared to the cartridges of the time. This meant that while it had less "bits" (32bit PS1, N64 soon followed), it could look better in quite a few ways. Otherwise, Sony was a brand new company, entering in a time when the names Nintendo and Sega were huge. I'm sure marketing strategies most definitely had an important impact, and in short everything came together to just mean easy success for Sony.

PS2 not only captured the immediate attention of PS1 owners, it was marketed and hyped with such vigor that NOT knowing what a PS2 was seemed unfathomable. But just as importantly, it brought a new version of "ooo shiny". DVD was starting to gain market acceptance and it was pretty easy at the time to decide DVD was going to have a dominant stance in the market, it was just taking time for affordable options. PS2 offered both a new generation of gaming, and an included DVD player. (required a remote, but that proved to be essentially a non-issue.) Also, pricing was most definitely reasonable. In fact, in adjusting for inflation, it was right on the money as a sweet spot. As usual, they took a loss on the initial console sales to gain market share.

And then there's the PS3. It had all the same +'s of the previous two consoles, including yet another "ooo shiny", BUT... due to hardware costs, Sony could not possibly have afforded to stick around in the gaming industry if the charged anywhere near the same as the PS2 launch price. In fact, it was double. That hurt initial sales, severely. And due to that, developers had less reason to tell themselves "okay, it's a bitch to develop for, but it'll be worth it". It was essentially the Sony stalwarths that decided to absolutely stick to exclusive development that truly helped Sony in the short term. The bonus features helped draw attention, especially for those who truly sought out a Blu-ray player. Hell, at launch, it was the fastest loading BD machine.
It just took time, further cost shaving techniques, and more efficient production (die shrinkage), and now we are seeing a Sony that is both being more realistic, and, gasp... Learning! They are returning to market strategies that actually work. The new entry price is bringing far more interest - and what matters most, far more sales - which is bringing the developers in line. As more developers fall in line, that will likely spur even more sales. Hit titles in development for a long time, that was insanely successful on the PS2, are just now nearing proper release on the PS3, and that will likely help push more systems.

In the end, one could see that Sony saw themselves on quite the lofty pedestal, and it really went to their heads. In turn, the way they approached the PS3 had a very negative impact on the initial market share, and they seem to be learning that to reach what they want (this is a company after all, and they want money, not necessarily to please customers. It just tends to work out that to get more money, you often need to make the customers happy), they need to rethink their approach. And they did that, a whole lot of rethinking. Seems to be working. And that excites me - the PS3 truly is capable of a lot, it's been underdeveloped due to low sales. Looking forward to more people buying this system, as that means better games for me, and better for all. :)

Microsoft is dual-supporting the 360 and PC, which is effective, but doesn't truly create a dual-system owner out of PC gamers. See, there are not enough Xbox titles that do not find their way to the PC for me to justify a 360, especially because I prefer PC gaming. The Playstation brand, however, continues to piss me off by maintaining a stronghold on so many IPs. They never find their way onto the PC, thus in order to enjoy them, I must partake in the PS. Hurts my wallet, but I like the end result.

And Nintendo... well, they got my money with the Wii, but they aren't getting it with games. Since packing up the Wii to move over a year ago, if not longer, I have yet to unpack it. Though I do feel a need to get back to playing Zelda, need to beat that game eventually, never got that far into it.
And oddly, both consoles I see no real need for, had been the most successful. They are great machines and have great titles, just not what I am looking for.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,010
2,232
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the PS3 truly is capable of a lot, it's been underdeveloped due to low sales. Looking forward to more people buying this system, as that means better games for me, and better for all. :)

Too bad anti aliasing doesn't seem to be one of those capabilities. Some of the cutscenes using the game engines looks like it has AA applied but maybe it's too resource intensive to do it ingame? That is one thing that disappoints me every time about the PS3...especially since the games are mostly rendered at 720p which makes it look worse.
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
2
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I guess Sony just wanted their hardware to sound cool...Technical wise, doesn't it make more sense for PS3 to like, use a x86 out-of-order CPU that everyone is familiar with?

360 is in order execution, isn't it?
 

Pheran

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2001
5,740
35
91
360 is in order execution, isn't it?

Yes. In fact the funny thing is the Xenon processor in the 360 is almost the same architecture as the Cell, except that the Xenon just has 3 of the "master" PPE cores from the Cell, instead of the asymmetric mess of 1 PPE and 7 limited SPE cores.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
both the PS1 and PS2 were renowned as being the most difficult consoles to develop amongst the other consoles of their generation.

PS1 was actually the easiest console to develop for in its generation, though only because nintendo purposefully handicapped coding on the n64. Something like the code the PSX used was largely compatible with the n64, so in order to avoid easy ports, nintendo forced devs to use lower level code.

As for the rest:
DVDs were an OMG feature for the ps2 (and supported out of the box, xbox was the system that required the remote).
PS1 could do larger textures than the n64 due to space and hardware limitaitons of the n64. A n64 with cds still would have had smaller max texture size. Bits had nothing to do with it, especially since bits in a conventional sense refers to the size of the memory bus. I'm not sure if the n64 could even caculate 64 bit numbers.

Yes, Sony had good marketing.

There's been severe inflation since the ps2 launched, and the ps3 was a pretty well built system, with a processor that would have required cutting edge production processes (it was huge at the time) and expensive ram. Probably didn't get the best deal on the nvidia gpu either.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
What? The 360 has a 3 core powerpc processor. It's a bit of a stretch to say that the 360 processor's architecture is almost the same as the cell's. If you're just talking about the fact that there are 3 cores in the 360 and 1 in the PS3 (plus 7 SPEs), then yes you have a point. But they are implemented in a radically different way.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Sony could make developers' lives much easier for the PS4 if they keep the Cell but just add 2-3 more general-purpose cores to work with the code written for PCs and the 360 (keeping the SPEs for existing code libraries). Also switch to a newer nvidia GPU, add more RAM and you're done with the duct-taping.

Low hardware design costs, backwards compatible, low manufacturing cost, all PS3 libraries are working day one to keep developers happy.
 

Pheran

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2001
5,740
35
91
What? The 360 has a 3 core powerpc processor. It's a bit of a stretch to say that the 360 processor's architecture is almost the same as the cell's. If you're just talking about the fact that there are 3 cores in the 360 and 1 in the PS3 (plus 7 SPEs), then yes you have a point. But they are implemented in a radically different way.

The 360s processor cores are very similar to the PPE in the Cell processor, except there are 3 of them instead of 1. Obviously it doesn't have the SPEs. IBM built both the Cell and the Xenon processor, and they were working on them at the same time, with some of the same people involved. That's why the Xenon is basically 3 Cell PPEs. Of course the Xenon is much easier to code on since it has 3 identical cores instead of what amounts to 1 full core and 7 coprocessor cores.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
The 360s processor cores are very similar to the PPE in the Cell processor, except there are 3 of them instead of 1. Obviously it doesn't have the SPEs. IBM built both the Cell and the Xenon processor, and they were working on them at the same time, with some of the same people involved. That's why the Xenon is basically 3 Cell PPEs. Of course the Xenon is much easier to code on since it has 3 identical cores instead of what amounts to 1 full core and 7 coprocessor cores.

IIRC, the Cell's primary core is a PPC processor so yes, they are vary similar.

IBM had big things planned for the Cell. The world's top super computer uses them. Plus there was that TV they were working on that could display a million channels at once, or something like that. I guess GPGPU has effectively killed those ideas.
 

erwos

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2005
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The 360s processor cores are very similar to the PPE in the Cell processor, except there are 3 of them instead of 1. Obviously it doesn't have the SPEs. IBM built both the Cell and the Xenon processor, and they were working on them at the same time, with some of the same people involved. That's why the Xenon is basically 3 Cell PPEs. Of course the Xenon is much easier to code on since it has 3 identical cores instead of what amounts to 1 full core and 7 coprocessor cores.
My head just exploded. Programming on these two platforms was an entirely different experience because of the use of SPEs instead of standard PPC cores on the PS3. Calling them "similar" because they happen to share a PPC CPU is ludicrous.

Given Sony's track record of "OMG THIS HARDWARE IS 3X AS DIFFICULT TO PROGRAM FOR THAN THE COMPETITION, BUT IS 10X BETTER IN A COMPLETELY NICHE SITUATION!", I don't even want to guess what they're dreaming up for the PS4.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
They should have gone with a standard x86 or PowerPC processor. Wii, Gamecube, and Xbox 360 all use PowerPC processors.

Whoever is in charge of Sony needs to be fired. They pull this same stunt every damn time. Minidisks, betamax, emotion engine. It's almost like it's Sony's goal to make great technology that cannot be adopted by any other company and dies off after a couple of years. They already dropped all PS2 compatibility and now it looks like PS4 will drop all PS3 compatibility. Meanwhile Nintendo is able to tout 100% backward compatibility with Gamecube due to it being the same basic design.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
They should have gone with a standard x86 or PowerPC processor. Wii, Gamecube, and Xbox 360 all use PowerPC processors.

Whoever is in charge of Sony needs to be fired. They pull this same stunt every damn time. Minidisks, betamax, emotion engine. It's almost like it's Sony's goal to make great technology that cannot be adopted by any other company and dies off after a couple of years. They already dropped all PS2 compatibility and now it looks like PS4 will drop all PS3 compatibility. Meanwhile Nintendo is able to tout 100% backward compatibility with Gamecube due to it being the same basic design.

I'm not defending Sony but you obviously don't know them. They create technology, great, risky technology. Sure some of it has failed but others haven't which is why they are a leader in technology. Also it's not like any of their technology hasn't been adapted by other companies.