CBO: Senate Finance Health Plan Trims Deficit By $81B

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The bill has not even been written yet...

"Unlike other committees, the tradition of the Finance Committee is to provide the bill in plain English to its legislators so they can have a more transparent grasp of the substance of the legislation. After a vote is passed, the bill is then translated into legal language, and any discrepancies between the two are resolved in favor of the plain English interpretation."

 

[StageLeft]

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

i agree with all of this, however, I want whoever to ram it through is not a lobbyist c***-sucker, and that pretty much invalidates all the politicians currently in office.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

Democrats dont need Republican support. Democrats are the biggest opposition to democrat sponsered reform.

Either way nothing has proposed so far actually tackles two underlying issues.

1. Elderly care\end of life costs. Currently the over 65 crowd accounts for half of our medical costs in this country and will only consume more as the baby boomers enter into the4 medicare program.

2. Disconnect between who pays for the system and who consumes it. With that broken market mechanic demand will continue to be high with no real way of curtailing it.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Fern
WTH?

This is nothing but cost-shifting.

That cost is offset by revenues from a excise tax on high-cost insurance plans and savings from cuts in government payments to health providers, among other sources.

The gross cost is $829 billion. Looks like an $829B drag on the economy via increased income taxes and shifting of medical costs from gov programs to private insurers and those who pay out-of-pocket (as in these subsidize medicaid/medicare because Medicaid/Medicare only pay a portion of the costs).

I don't see any overall net cost reduction in HC. This looks like a 'back-door' tax increase, that's all.

Now how is this good?

Fern

If you'd like some details, here is a breakdown of some of the costs according to the CBO from this story in the New York Times: Care Bill Gets Green Light in Cost Analysis

[Costs]
A proposed expansion of Medicaid would add $345 billion
State Medicaid spending would rise by $33 billion, as 14 million people would be added to the Medicaid rolls
Subsidies totaling $461 billion...to help low- and middle-income people


[Revenue/savings]
...a proposed tax on high-cost insurance policies would raise $201 billion
Penalties paid by people who go without insurance would total $4 billion
Employers who did not provide health benefits would pay $23 billion in penalties
...a Medicare commission, with power to make cutbacks in the program....would save $22 billion.
...reduce payments to private Medicare Advantage plans by $117 billion
...cutting the growth of Medicare payments to other health providers by $162 billion

[Neutral]
The bill would establish insurance cooperatives, to compete with private insurers. But...would not establish "a significant market presence in many areas."

 

[Genx87]

I am curious about these medicare cuts. Are people going to be denied care or will the health providers be forced to find a way to make up the difference? In other words, charge the uninsured and the insurance companies more?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I voted for Bush

Fixed.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I am curious about these medicare cuts. Are people going to be denied care or will the health providers be forced to find a way to make up the difference? In other words, charge the uninsured and the insurance companies more?

From the CBO's letter here:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106...10-7-Baucus_letter.pdf

Here's a cut and paste for now

[1] Permanent reductions in the annual updates to Medicare?s payment rates for most services in the fee-for-service sector (other than physicians? services), yielding budgetary savings of $162 billion over 10 years. (That calculation excludes interactions between those provisions and others?namely, the effects of those changes on payments to Medicare Advantage plans and collections of Part B premiums.)

[2] Setting payment rates in the Medicare Advantage program on the basis of the average of the bids submitted by Medicare Advantage plans in each market, yielding savings of an estimated $117 billion (before interactions) over the 2010?2019 period.

[3] Reducing Medicare and Medicaid payments to hospitals that serve a large number of low-income patients, known as disproportionate share (DSH) hospitals, by almost $45 billion?composed of roughly $22 billion each from Medicaid and Medicare DSH payments.

From the Chairman's mark here:

http://finance.senate.gov/site...Future_Act_AMENDED.pdf

Numbers correspond to the points above:

[1,2] Beginning in 2011, the Chairman's Mark would transition MA benchmarks to reflect plan bids. In 2011, the national MA per capita growth percentage would be reduced by three percentage points. Starting in 2012, local MA benchmarks would be blended with plan bids. Specifically, local MA benchmarks would be based on 33 percent of the enrollment weighted average of plan bids for each payment area and 67 percent of the current law MA benchmarks. In 2013, a greater share of the benchmark rates would reflect actual plan bids. Specifically, 67 percent of the benchmark rates would be based on the enrollment weighted average of plan bids for each payment area, while the remaining 33 percent would be based on the current law MA benchmarks. The Mark would require that the Secretary use the enrollment figures from the most recent month from which data is available.

In 2014, the local MA benchmarks would be based on the actual plan bids from the prior year. That is, the 2014 MA benchmarks would be equal to 100 percent of the enrollment weighted average of the 2013 plan bids increased by the national MA growth percentage for 2014. Beginning in 2015, the MA local benchmarks would be determined by the enrollment weighted average of all MA bids in each payment area. In the case of a payment area where only a single plan is offered, the weight would be equal to one. In the case of a payment area where no MA plans were offered in a prior year and multiple plans bid in the following year, the Secretary would use a simple average to calculate the MA benchmark in that area. An upper bound would be established in each area so that local benchmarks could not exceed the levels that would have existed under current law. Bids from all local MA plans (except regional plans, PACE plans and 1876 cost plans) would be used to set the MA benchmarks. In 2014, the local MA benchmarks

[3]Starting no later than 2015 and continuing on an annual basis, the Secretary would make disproportionate share payments equal to 25 percent of the disproportionate share payments that would otherwise be made, a payment that represents the empirically justified amount as determined by the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission in its March 2007 Report to Congress. The empirically justified funding amount is intended to reimburse hospitals for the additional costs of treating low-income beneficiaries.

In addition to this amount, an additional payment would be made to reflect hospitals? continued uncompensated care costs. Funding for this additional payment would come from the difference
between the empirically justified amount for DSH payments and the amount that would be paid for DSH payments under current law. For every given percentage point reduction in the uninsured in each period evaluated, the percent of funding available for this amount to hospitals would be reduced by a proportional amount.

Given a lag in accurate data to measure the change in the level of insurance in 2015, the Secretary will be directed to calculate insurance coverage levels relative to the projected impact of the coverage expansion in 2015, 2016, and 2017 compared to the last year before coverage expansion (2012). Starting in 2018, the Secretary will use the most recent Census Bureau data for purposes of the adjustment.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: sciwizam

So we are covering about 53.7% of the uninsured for $900 Billion, what about the rest of them? So, another $900 Billion reform bill next year to take care of the rest?

i wonder what % of those are already covered under another program if they'd bother showing up

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Patranus
New taxes on the middle class. Oh wait, they are 'fees' not new taxes. I have to get my terminology correct. with the goal of generating 120 billion. How much more are you going to have to pay?

Leaves 20 million uninsured.

Cuts 500 (assumption) billion from seniors. Not going to happen.

And did you see how much it costs after 10 years? Your mind will be blown.

Doesn't sound like you read the article...

The CBO projected that the revenue from the insurance excise tax and other sources will grow more quickly from 2020 to 2029 than the parts of the bill that cost the government - amounting to a net reduction in the federal deficit.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Republicans and their supporters lie, and I voted for Bush -- therefore, I lie

Fixed.

 

[LTC8K6]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The bill has not even been written yet...

"Unlike other committees, the tradition of the Finance Committee is to provide the bill in plain English to its legislators so they can have a more transparent grasp of the substance of the legislation. After a vote is passed, the bill is then translated into legal language, and any discrepancies between the two are resolved in favor of the plain English interpretation."

There is no plain English bill as far as I can tell...

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Simple cost shifting. I have yet to see any legislative proposal that actually tackles the underlying problems. Everything I see is about cost shifting, playing shell games with who's paying for what and how, nothing about reducing the actual costs.

And when someone has the cost shifted onto them, who do you think they will shift the cost onto?

The consumer.

 

[piasabird]

Do you really trust these savings? How far behind in payments are we for Medicare? 1 Trillion? I dont trust any estimates on health care. Anything they estimate is a pie in the sky guess.

I guess it is time to roll out the president's fact check Nazis!

Any estimate they gave for health care probably needs to be multiplied by 10 to 50 times. And make sure they account for the shrinking value of the dollar and future value of money.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Do you really trust these savings?

If the savings exist, why not simply show the tax payer these savings exist. No legislation required. Show us the savings and after you do that we can talk about other reforms.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

This is true, Democrats are just pussies. They are scared of the right, they are scared of their constituents and they are scared at the pseudo-outrage in town halls. Honestly, at this point, some people will need to fall on the sword. But again, our politicians are pussies. They want to keep their cushy job and not actually address America's problems.

Obama has some patience, if I was him, I would have given up on it, given a huge "fuck you" to Congress and let the healthcare system spiral out of control. I honestly think it's going to come to that. Obama seems content to let pussy-legislation go through. It won't work. We need reform like Germany, France, Finland or just about every major developed country has. Until we get that, America's healthcare system is going to be a joke.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The bill has not even been written yet...

"Unlike other committees, the tradition of the Finance Committee is to provide the bill in plain English to its legislators so they can have a more transparent grasp of the substance of the legislation. After a vote is passed, the bill is then translated into legal language, and any discrepancies between the two are resolved in favor of the plain English interpretation."

There is no plain English bill as far as I can tell...

Correct. There is no "bill" in the sense that bills have bill numbers and are published to the Congressional Record (and by extension library of Congress, GPO, etc.).

However, the Senate Finance Committee has produced a chairman's mark, which is written in plain English following longstanding tradition in the committee.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: piasabird
Do you really trust these savings?

If the savings exist, why not simply show the tax payer these savings exist. No legislation required. Show us the savings and after you do that we can talk about other reforms.

Personally, I wish that we could start by showing the costs -- as in the current costs.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

This is true, Democrats are just pussies. They are scared of the right, they are scared of their constituents and they are scared at the pseudo-outrage in town halls. Honestly, at this point, some people will need to fall on the sword. But again, our politicians are pussies. They want to keep their cushy job and not actually address America's problems.

Obama has some patience, if I was him, I would have given up on it, given a huge "fuck you" to Congress and let the healthcare system spiral out of control. I honestly think it's going to come to that. Obama seems content to let pussy-legislation go through. It won't work. We need reform like Germany, France, Finland or just about every major developed country has. Until we get that, America's healthcare system is going to be a joke.

yea, because people are dying left and right :roll:

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

This is true, Democrats are just pussies. They are scared of the right, they are scared of their constituents and they are scared at the pseudo-outrage in town halls. Honestly, at this point, some people will need to fall on the sword. But again, our politicians are pussies. They want to keep their cushy job and not actually address America's problems.

Obama has some patience, if I was him, I would have given up on it, given a huge "fuck you" to Congress and let the healthcare system spiral out of control. I honestly think it's going to come to that. Obama seems content to let pussy-legislation go through. It won't work. We need reform like Germany, France, Finland or just about every major developed country has. Until we get that, America's healthcare system is going to be a joke.

yea, because people are dying left and right :roll:

Compare it to the rest of the world, we rank only slightly above some poor Eastern European countries. Secondly, our overall health is much worse than every other developed country in the world. Finally, we spend more than all those other countries. In only a few years, the entire health system will be broke.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

This is true, Democrats are just pussies. They are scared of the right, they are scared of their constituents and they are scared at the pseudo-outrage in town halls. Honestly, at this point, some people will need to fall on the sword. But again, our politicians are pussies. They want to keep their cushy job and not actually address America's problems.

Obama has some patience, if I was him, I would have given up on it, given a huge "fuck you" to Congress and let the healthcare system spiral out of control. I honestly think it's going to come to that. Obama seems content to let pussy-legislation go through. It won't work. We need reform like Germany, France, Finland or just about every major developed country has. Until we get that, America's healthcare system is going to be a joke.

yea, because people are dying left and right :roll:

Compare it to the rest of the world, we rank only slightly above some poor Eastern European countries. Secondly, our overall health is much worse than every other developed country in the world. Finally, we spend more than all those other countries. In only a few years, the entire health system will be broke.

ORLY? US has highest adjusted for fatal injuries

OECD Nation Actual (Raw) Mean (Does Not Account for Fatal Injuries) Standardized Mean (Accounts for Fatal Injuries)
Australia 76.8 76.0
Austria 75.3 76.0
Belgium 75.7 76.0
Canada 77.3 76.2
Denmark 75.1 76.1
France 76.6 76.0
Germany 75.4 76.1
Iceland 78.0 76.1
Italy 76.6 75.8
Japan 78.7 76.0
Netherlands 77.0 75.9
Norway 77.0 76.3
Sweden 77.7 76.1
Switzerland 77.6 76.6
United Kingdom 75.6 75.7
United States 75.3 76.9

Plus US has a sizeable black population (known to have lower life expectancies as the chart shows) and euros don't and US STILL has higher LE. Go troll elsewhere.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
We need major reform, on the level the Swiss (Swedes?) or Taiwainese did in the '80s and '90s. Otherwise, we are just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

The biggest problem is that we can't have a sensible debate without idiots spreading massive disinformation. There's just a whole bunch of fucktards ruining the health care reform for everyone. Honestly, the Democrats need to push something throw that is major. Quit trying to buy bipartisan support. The republicans right now would cut off their nose to spite their face. Fuck them. Shove a huge reform down their throats. Everyone will be much off with a clear HC reform bill than something muddied by bipartisanship.

your zeal is strong, but your dems don't have enough of their own to pass anything... need to get your own fucktards in line before you beat on others...

This is true, Democrats are just pussies. They are scared of the right, they are scared of their constituents and they are scared at the pseudo-outrage in town halls. Honestly, at this point, some people will need to fall on the sword. But again, our politicians are pussies. They want to keep their cushy job and not actually address America's problems.

Obama has some patience, if I was him, I would have given up on it, given a huge "fuck you" to Congress and let the healthcare system spiral out of control. I honestly think it's going to come to that. Obama seems content to let pussy-legislation go through. It won't work. We need reform like Germany, France, Finland or just about every major developed country has. Until we get that, America's healthcare system is going to be a joke.

yea, because people are dying left and right :roll:

Compare it to the rest of the world, we rank only slightly above some poor Eastern European countries. Secondly, our overall health is much worse than every other developed country in the world. Finally, we spend more than all those other countries. In only a few years, the entire health system will be broke.

ORLY? US has highest adjusted for fatal injuries

OECD Nation Actual (Raw) Mean (Does Not Account for Fatal Injuries) Standardized Mean (Accounts for Fatal Injuries)
Australia 76.8 76.0
Austria 75.3 76.0
Belgium 75.7 76.0
Canada 77.3 76.2
Denmark 75.1 76.1
France 76.6 76.0
Germany 75.4 76.1
Iceland 78.0 76.1
Italy 76.6 75.8
Japan 78.7 76.0
Netherlands 77.0 75.9
Norway 77.0 76.3
Sweden 77.7 76.1
Switzerland 77.6 76.6
United Kingdom 75.6 75.7
United States 75.3 76.9

Plus US has a sizeable black population (known to have lower life expectancies as the chart shows) and euros don't and US STILL has higher LE. Go troll elsewhere.

So basically what you are saying is that if you cook the data, then you can get a favorable number out of it?

https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...ankorder/2102rank.html

Look what the CIA has to say in it's fact book. We are #50.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

So basically what you are saying is that if you cook the data, then you can get a favorable number out of it?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html">https://www.cia.gov/library......rder/2102rank.html</a>

Look what the CIA has to say in it's fact book. We are #50.

What good does having excellant healthcare gonna do, if someone shoots you in the head?