CBO analysis of new tax bill, $100k+ earner gets big cuts, poorer earner will tax more after bill

[K1052]

Yes. Unless you are rich there is no logical reason to be in favor of this plan. If you ask them what there is about it that they like I imagine they will give similarly nonsensical answers.

I got into an argument the other day over the estate tax with somebody who stands no chance of ever paying it. The underlying thread is that they might somehow someday and thus it shouldn't exist. It's the lottery mentality all the way through. Taxes should be low on rich people because they too could, even if the odds are so infinitesimal as to almost not exist, be wealthy and subject to higher tax.

 

[fskimospy]

I got into an argument the other day over the estate tax with somebody who stands no chance of ever paying it. The underlying thread is that they might somehow someday and thus it shouldn't exist. It's the lottery mentality all the way through. Taxes should be low on rich people because they too could, even if the odds are so infinitesimal as to almost not exist, be wealthy and subject to higher tax.

The estate tax is one we should be jacking way up, not eliminating. I see no reason to reward unearned wealth.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The GOP doesn't care about the end result unless it is them holding onto all the power and wealth in this country.

I don't think they even necessarily care about themselves having the power. They're fully beholden to the financial interests of the wealthy now, so they have no choice. They're replaceable if they don't play ball, and furthermore, they handed them the leverage against the American people, so they've fucked us both ways (every which way actually). Now they're just trying to maintain the status quo that they created because if they don't their scam will come crashing down. And they'll be the ones held responsible (rightfully so).

What's more concerning is that our debt is now larger than our GDP and growing. I could at least understand if your economy is growing as fast or a little faster than your debt in that your income would grow fast enough to pay for it all but in this case, we're taking a pay cut with no guarantee that the economy is going to benefit.

T-Rump and the GOP say that the economy is stuck and needs a push and yet the Fed is building a case that the economy is too hot and needs a rate hike (or 2) to slow it down.

I guess as long as the share holder class get the most, there won't be much to worry about on the economy overheating....maybe Wall Street but definitely not Main Street. The 'trickle' will never make it down below the penthouse.

I'm not sure that the trickle will even make it into the US, as even if they got all the changes they want, there's still so much room for them to end up better off hiding the money, and a lot of that money is gone for good as there's no benefit to them revealing it anywhere close to fully. So they'll probably make a big show of bringing some meager amount back to make it seem like they're operating in good faith. Republicans get to claim it was them, and they both hope the American people will be none the wiser. If more of it gets revealed, they'll just say they held out because of "uncertainty" with the tax reform or whatever they can come up with, and then let the political system play the blame game and usual garbage to obfuscate things ensuring that nothing meaningful will be done about it.

 

[K1052]

The estate tax is one we should be jacking way up, not eliminating. I see no reason to reward unearned wealth.

Being the fan of unearned wealth that I am I can only but agree.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

And yet every Republican I talk to is for the tax plan. I know many at work (and they are intelligent engineers) who are for this. It is completely inexplicable. You will notice that Doc never actually defended the plan with evidence (he has none of course) but he remains positive towards it.

Is it simply partisanship?

Yes, a few oxen got gored along the way...but the plan benefits nearly all Americans.

https://taxfoundation.org/tax-cut-amended-senate-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act/

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, a few oxen got gored along the way...but the plan benefits nearly all Americans.

https://taxfoundation.org/tax-cut-amended-senate-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act/

Yet another case where you don’t read your own links. Those are the effects in the FIRST YEAR ONLY. As time goes on those cuts decline and then eventually turn into tax increases for half of Americans or more yourself likely included. Amazing how you support a tax increase on yourself by convincing yourself it’s really a tax cut.

This is a great example of bshole’s suspicion that it is driven simply by partisanship. I have zero doubt that if the Democrats tried to raise your taxes by cutting them short term and raising them long term you would immediately sniff it out and deride them for their dishonesty.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Yes, a few oxen got gored along the way...but the plan benefits nearly all Americans.

https://taxfoundation.org/tax-cut-amended-senate-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act/

Ask yourself why they don't project beyond one year. Once 2019 hits the fun begins for the poors.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Yet another case where you don’t read your own links. Those are the effects in the FIRST YEAR ONLY. As time goes on those cuts decline and then eventually turn into tax increases for half of Americans or more yourself likely included. Amazing how you support a tax increase on yourself by convincing yourself it’s really a tax cut.

This is a great example of bshole’s suspicion that it is driven simply by partisanship. I have zero doubt that if the Democrats tried to raise your taxes by cutting them short term and raising them long term you would immediately sniff it out and deride them for their dishonesty.

You of all people want to talk about dishonesty? I'll tell you what....when Democrats actually engage and attempt to fix the perceived problems with the tax bill...then maybe, just maybe, I'll start believing they actually care about the low/middle class.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

You of all people want to talk about dishonesty? I'll tell you what....when Democrats actually attempt to fix the perceived problems with the tax bill...then maybe, just maybe I'll start believing they actually care about the middle class.

How can they fix it? They aren't even allowed a seat at the goddamn table.

 

[fskimospy]

You of all people want to talk about dishonesty? I'll tell you what....when Democrats actually attempt to fix the perceived problems with the tax bill...then maybe, just maybe I'll start believing they actually care about the middle class.

You just attempted to claim that this plan benefits almost all Americans. This is demonstrably untrue, as about 50% of Americans will see a tax INCREASE from it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/sen...e-taxes-for-half-of-us-tax-policy-center.html

As for the Democrats, the Republicans have explicitly decided to pass this bill this way so that they can do so without any input from Democrats.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/01/mitch-mcconnell-tax-bill-gop-votes-241212

Senate Republicans are sticking to their plans to pass a tax bill with 50 Republican votes, despite Democratic pleas not to be sidelined as they were on health care.

So now in order to deflect from just how insanely shitty this tax bill is you're trying to blame the Democrats for not fixing the bill that the GOP ensured they would have no input on. lol. This is what bshole meant when he said support for this is explicitly partisan. You're desperately searching for ways to support a bill that likely raises your own taxes by convincing yourself that A) the bill doesn't raise your taxes or B) if it does it's the Democrats' fault.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

How can they fix it? They aren't even allowed a seat at the goddamn table.

They have a seat...but refuse to sit down and talk.

 

[Jhhnn]

You of all people want to talk about dishonesty? I'll tell you what....when Democrats actually engage and attempt to fix the perceived problems with the tax bill...then maybe, just maybe, I'll start believing they actually care about the low/middle class.

Diving into the bunker o' Denial...

 

[MomentsofSanity]

They have a seat...but refuse to sit down and talk.

You mean the meeting that wasn't about the tax bill where just before it Trump was tweeting insults at the Dem leadership stating he sees no way for a deal to be reached? That meeting? Yeah that's a productive approach.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Diving into the bunker o' Denial...

Convince me that Democrats actually give a flying f*ck about the low/middle class.

 

[fskimospy]

They have a seat...but refuse to sit down and talk.

Jesus Christ dude, that was negotiations about an entirely separate spending bill that they didn't attend after Trump tweeted childish insults at them and said he couldn't see any possible deal. They are not now, and have never been, offered a seat to sit down and talk about this tax bill.

The people who are likely raising your taxes are the Republicans, and the Republicans alone. They are raising your taxes so that they can lower taxes on rich people and people inheriting more than $11 million. As someone who has worked for what he has in life I would think this would bother you.

 

[bshole]

Convince me that Democrats actually give a flying f*ck about the low/middle class.

You have proven that you don't by your support of this bill. I don't support this bill because it harms me and the rest of the middle class. I could care less who is passing it, I know who it is harming. All you give a shit about is who is passing it.

This is the same shit as Net Neutrality. The Republicans are literally ruining the goddamn internet..... the ONLY first world nation to do it and with less than 10% support of Americans.

 

[yllus]

You of all people want to talk about dishonesty? I'll tell you what....when Democrats actually engage and attempt to fix the perceived problems with the tax bill...then maybe, just maybe, I'll start believing they actually care about the low/middle class.

LOL

 

[vi edit]

Where that chart gets fucked up is SALT deductions. Mortgage interest + Property + state taxes are the single largest itemized deductions for most people. 2 of those 3 are removed under the senate plan. In my household that's close to $20,000 in those two alone. Add in mortgage interest and it's over $30,000. With the interest alone I wouldn't hit the standard deduction and those numbers change completely NOT in my favor.

 

[Engineer]

Yes, a few oxen got gored along the way...but the plan benefits nearly all Americans.

https://taxfoundation.org/tax-cut-amended-senate-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act/

I'm one of the oxen. Notice no mention of college age children, that I can currently enjoy a personal exemption for, on that list. The increased child credit does nothing for me because I don't get it (over 16 = no credit). I don't even know if the college tax credits have been removed or not but wouldn't surprise me if they were (that will hammer me hard on taxation compared to now). My taxes will take a hike from day one and only go up from there unless extended.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You mean the meeting where just before it Trump was tweeting insults at the Dem leadership stating he sees no way for a deal to be reached? That meeting? Yeah that's a productive approach.

You apparently don't understand context. He was willing to talk but doesn't see how they can reach any agreement if Dems insist that DACA be part of the negotiation. DACA and illegal immigration are complex issues and one solution will not be entertained without the other being considered as part of that discussion. Schumer and Pelosi are acting like little children...almost as bad as Trump. Fuck it if the low/middle class gets screwed....gotta have DACA! Democrats have an opportunity to help us here and they're wasting it.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

You apparently don't understand context. He was willing to talk but doesn't see how they can reach any agreement if Dems insist that DACA be part of the negotiation. DACA and illegal immigration are complex issues and one solution will not be entertained without the other being considered as part of that discussion. Schumer and Pelosi are acting like little children...almost as bad as Trump. Fuck it if the low/middle class gets screwed....gotta have DACA! Democrats have an opportunity to help us here and they're wasting it.

it wasn't about the tax bill you dolt. that was something entirely different.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Yet another case where you don’t read your own links. Those are the effects in the FIRST YEAR ONLY. As time goes on those cuts decline and then eventually turn into tax increases for half of Americans or more yourself likely included. Amazing how you support a tax increase on yourself by convincing yourself it’s really a tax cut.

It's their version of bait and switch that gets ignorant people to buy into the scheme.

 

[Engineer]

You apparently don't understand context. He was willing to talk but doesn't see how they can reach any agreement if Dems insist that DACA be part of the negotiation. DACA and illegal immigration are complex issues and one solution will not be entertained without the other being considered as part of that discussion. Schumer and Pelosi are acting like little children...almost as bad as Trump. Fuck it if the low/middle class gets screwed....gotta have DACA! Democrats have an opportunity to help us here and they're wasting it.

Uh, that meeting was about keeping the government from shutting down and funding it, not tax reform.

 

[Jhhnn]

You apparently don't understand context. He was willing to talk but doesn't see how they can reach any agreement if Dems insist that DACA be part of the negotiation. DACA and illegal immigration are complex issues and one solution will not be entertained without the other being considered as part of that discussion. Schumer and Pelosi are acting like little children...almost as bad as Trump. Fuck it if the low/middle class gets screwed....gotta have DACA! Democrats have an opportunity to help us here and they're wasting it.

Trump didn't mention DACA. Neither did Dems. The proposed meeting wasn't about the tax bill, either.

{quote]Meeting with 'Chuck and Nancy' today about keeping government open and working. Problem is they want illegal immigrants flooding into our Country unchecked, are weak on Crime and want to substantially RAISE Taxes. I don't see a deal![/quote]

The DACA isn't about illegal immigrants flooding into the country but about young people who've been raised American being able to stay. It's the right thing to do. Everybody other than racist assholes knows it, too.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's their version of bait and switch that gets ignorant people to buy into the scheme.

There's candy in my van little girl.....