CBO analysis of new tax bill, $100k+ earner gets big cuts, poorer earner will tax more after bill

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Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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The IRS indicates 11 million filed for exemptions in 2016 (see link Page 78). Where are you getting your information?

http://taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/Media/Default/Documents/2017-JRC/2016_filing_season_review.pdf

I'm not talking about exemptions. I'm talking about those that paid the mandate. Page 78 says 5.6 million.

It goes along with this discussion that I got my number from:

http://acasignups.net/16/09/22/estimate-16-fewer-people-had-pay-individual-mandate-year
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Straight from the horse's mouth, estimate from the CBO, go to page 10:
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/11...estimate/reconciliationrecommendationssfc.pdf
By 2019 people making less than 30,000 will be paying more, by the end in 2027 pretty much two thirds of the country will be paying more.


Once again, straight from the horse's mouth, direct link:
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/53300-individualmandate.pdf

Just in case you don't want to open that, I'll quote from it for you to read here:
"The number of people with health insurance would decrease by 4 million in 2019 and 13 million in 2027 (see Table 2)."
"Average premiums in the nongroup market would increase by about 10 percent in most years of the decade (with no changes in the ages of people purchasing insurance accounted for) relative to CBO’s baseline projections."

13 million people will lose their insurance, those who can still afford to pay it will be facing 10% yearly increases for the next 10 years.
CBO projections...lol....their track record is abyssal regarding ACA projections. You're citing a projection 10 years from now when they couldn't even get remotely close regarding their initial projections for ACA. They predicted that the exchanges would be stable by now and would have more than twice as many enrollees as they currently have. They also projected that the Medicaid expansion would be much smaller and less expensive than it has turned out to be (and that's with only 32 States adopting the expansion so far!). I generally support CBO and their efforts...but they've done little to inspire confidence when it comes to making healthcare market predictions.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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God, i'm sick of these threads and topics. Its sad i live somewhere where this is even a thing of conversation. I really need to get out of here to a country and population that cares about its citizens well being..
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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CBO projections...lol....their track record is abyssal regarding ACA projections. You're citing a projection 10 years from now when they couldn't even get remotely close regarding their initial projections for ACA. They predicted that the exchanges would be stable by now and would have more than twice as many enrollees as they currently have. They also projected that the Medicaid expansion would be much smaller and less expensive than it has turned out to be (and that's with only 32 States adopting the expansion so far!). I generally support CBO and their efforts...but they've done little to inspire confidence when it comes to making healthcare market predictions.

I wonder what their projections would have been if they had factored in Republican sabotage? How in fuck were they to know that the Republicans would relentlessly attack it from inception on? This is NOT a matter of conjecture, it is matter of objective fact.

We have the worst health system of any first world nation and we are going in the wrong direction. Socialized medicine has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that it is VASTLY superior to the American system. We will never get it because Republicans respond only to the monied class and don't give a damn about the rest of us.

https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog/2017/05/17/10-ways-the-gop-sabotaged-obamacare/
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,569
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yeah FIFO would kill my tax loss harvesting strategy. i've been able to decrease taxable income by 3$k per year for the last 4 or 5 years using spec ID.

Yeah. I haven't bothered to do that math yet since nothing is set in stone but it looks like there is a decent chance I'll get hit with a tax increase. It will make future rebalancing more difficult as well.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I wonder what their projections would have been if they had factored in Republican sabotage? How in fuck were they to know that the Republicans would relentlessly attack it from inception on? This is NOT a matter of conjecture, it is matter of objective fact.
This is not an objective fact...it's pure conjecture on your part. Objective fact indicates enrollment at an all-time high last year and a new 'first day' record for sign-ups earlier this month. Republican "sabotage" seems to be having little to no effect on enrollment.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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This is not an objective fact...it's pure conjecture on your part. Objective fact indicates enrollment at an all-time high last year and a new 'first day' record for sign-ups earlier this month. Republican "sabotage" seems to be having little to no effect on enrollment.

Whatever. So I take it that you support this rape of the middle class bill of the Republicans. Any reason for that? In love with bigger deficits? Like cutting benefits to retirees? Don't think the wealthy are getting their fair share? Don't think the middle class are paying their fair share? Angry that the middle class is still alive and wanting some payback?

How do you like a few crappy tax cuts for some of the middle class that turn into tax increases for all the middle class by 2025 while the tax cuts for the people funding this monstrosity are permanent.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Whatever. So I take it that you support this rape of the middle class bill of the Republicans. Any reason for that? In love with bigger deficits? Like cutting benefits to retirees? Don't think the wealthy are getting their fair share? Don't think the middle class are paying their fair share? Angry that the middle class is still alive and wanting some payback?

How do you like a few crappy tax cuts for some of the middle class that turn into tax increases for all the middle class by 2025 while the tax cuts for the people funding this monstrosity are permanent.
I'm not especially enamored with the bill as I wish they moderated the corporate tax cut to help out the poor and middle class a little more. But I do get what they're trying to do and I approve....our current corporate tax system is hurting our country long-term as it strongly encourages jobs, profits and, ultimately, tax revenues to be shifted overseas.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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I'm not especially enamored with the bill as I wish they moderated the corporate tax cut to help out the poor and middle class a little more. But I do get what they're trying to do and I approve....our current corporate tax system is hurting our country long-term as it strongly encourages jobs, profits and tax revenues to be shifted overseas.

Yea right and getting rid of the estate tax will do just that..... fuck you and fuck your party.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Yea right and getting rid of the estate tax will do just that..... fuck you and fuck your party.

Or not giving bizarre and irrational special treatment to pass through entities, or privileging passive investment over work, or singling out university endowments for taxation while leaving other ideologically friendly ones alone, or fucking up the housing market, etc, etc. So yes, all that on top of cutting taxes for the layabout children of billionaires.

No even minimally competent person could be in favor of this tax bill as it is. It's not just morally shitty, it does a lot of things that no one who understands economics would ever want to do. It's just an embarrassment all around. The only answer as to why it's being supported is pure partisanship.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,925
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I have had it with you pricks. YOU are in the middle class you colossal DUMB FUCKING SHIT. This is going to harm you just as much as it is going to harm me. Are you really this fucking retarded that you don't understand that? Jesus Christ.

I'm going to take a wild stab and say that while he was VERY concerned with US debt and deficits under Obama that concern has mysteriously evaporated since then. Go into debt to mitigate a once in a generation economic catastrophe? No thanks! Go into debt to give money to the children of billionaires? Sounds great!
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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I'm not especially enamored with the bill as I wish they moderated the corporate tax cut to help out the poor and middle class a little more. But I do get what they're trying to do and I approve....our current corporate tax system is hurting our country long-term as it strongly encourages jobs, profits and tax revenues to be shifted overseas.

You think that's going to stop? There's always going to be places they can squirrel their profits away, because there's always going to be a country with a lower tax rate, and there's always going to be ones willing to look the other way and give them effectively zero tax rate and letting them launder all their dirty money. And there's always going to be countries with politicians willing to let corporations subjugate their people. Plus, you think them having that money in America will matter? They'll just keep getting the tax code in their favor, by holding us hostage with this same crap "cut our taxes or else we take our money elsewhere". Lots of them are even saying the tax plan isn't good enough for them and threatening to move now.

You really think Republicans are going to not leave major loopholes that has enabled all this shit? They're going to do that, while simultaneously making it easier for the wealthy and corporations to openly move their money in and out of America so as to mitigate their taxes. They can do a big show of bringing it back, and then move it back out while people are concerned with other problems, all with zero penalty.

They kicked that shit into overdrive back when they were also getting major tax cuts. It didn't matter to them then, and it won't matter to them now. Plus the more they keep holding leverage like that, the more we get companies like Amazon that can't make profit even when they're massively screwing their employees out of pay, and getting huge tax breaks that funnels the money back to them instead of paying taxes. Effectively the Republicans are socializing the US economy in reverse.

And if you think that's going to improve, as automation takes over, you're just plain delusional. They're going to start going "why should we be paying taxes to support a populace that isn't even working?" and Republicans will agree and they'll blame it on the American people as usual. Hell weren't they saying that back in 2012, which sunk Romney because Americans aren't too keen on being blamed for the politicians' actions?
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I have had it with you pricks. YOU are in the middle class you colossal DUMB FUCKING SHIT. This is going to harm you just as much as it is going to harm me. Are you really this fucking retarded that you don't understand that? Jesus Christ.
Exactly...how is this going to harm the middle class? I must have missed that part during all your wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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I'm going to take a wild stab and say that while he was VERY concerned with US debt and deficits under Obama that concern has mysteriously evaporated since then. Go into debt to mitigate a once in a generation economic catastrophe? No thanks! Go into debt to give money to the children of billionaires? Sounds great!

I am so depressed and angry. The pricks actually are going after college kids as well. The smartest kids in America working on cutting edge scientific research and they marked them off for extra taxes. I don't know if that will remain when all is said and done but it would not surprise me in the least.

At the top of the list is the House GOP’s plan to tax as income tuition that schools now waive for graduate students working as teaching or research assistants. At some schools — where the tuition breaks run upwards of $40,000 — that could more than triple students' taxable income, causing some to spend huge portions of their stipends, which are generally just around $25,000 to $30,000 a year, on massive tax bills.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/28/gop-tax-plan-higher-education-263538
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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I'm going to take a wild stab and say that while he was VERY concerned with US debt and deficits under Obama that concern has mysteriously evaporated since then. Go into debt to mitigate a once in a generation economic catastrophe? No thanks! Go into debt to give money to the children of billionaires? Sounds great!

It will all trickle down! Just click your heels together 3 times & say "There's no place like home!"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,925
55,254
136
I am so depressed and angry. The pricks actually are going after college kids as well. The smartest kids in America working on cutting edge scientific research and they marked them off for extra taxes. I don't know if that will remain when all is said and done but it would not surprise me in the least.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/28/gop-tax-plan-higher-education-263538

Ah yes, I forgot about that one. That's the problem here, there are so many mind-bogglingly stupid things in this bill that it's hard to keep them all straight.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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You think that's going to stop? There's always going to be places they can squirrel their profits away, because there's always going to be a country with a lower tax rate, and there's always going to be ones willing to look the other way and give them effectively zero tax rate and letting them launder all their dirty money. And there's always going to be countries with politicians willing to let corporations subjugate their people. Plus, you think them having that money in America will matter? They'll just keep getting the tax code in their favor, by holding us hostage with this same crap "cut our taxes or else we take our money elsewhere". Lots of them are even saying the tax plan isn't good enough for them and threatening to move now.

You really think Republicans are going to not leave major loopholes that has enabled all this shit? They're going to do that, while simultaneously making it easier for the wealthy and corporations to openly move their money in and out of America so as to mitigate their taxes. They can do a big show of bringing it back, and then move it back out while people are concerned with other problems, all with zero penalty.

They kicked that shit into overdrive back when they were also getting major tax cuts. It didn't matter to them then, and it won't matter to them now. Plus the more they keep holding leverage like that, the more we get companies like Amazon that can't make profit even when they're massively screwing their employees out of pay, and getting huge tax breaks that funnels the money back to them instead of paying taxes. Effectively the Republicans are socializing the US economy in reverse.

And if you think that's going to improve, as automation takes over, you're just plain delusional. They're going to start going "why should we be paying taxes to support a populace that isn't even working?" and Republicans will agree and they'll blame it on the American people as usual. Hell weren't they saying that back in 2012, which sunk Romney because Americans aren't too keen on being blamed for the politicians' actions?
And when hell freezes over...I'm just sure that it'll be the Republicans fault too. Got it.

There's more than one way to skin a cat...and the status quo just isn't working.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I am so depressed and angry. The pricks actually are going after college kids as well. The smartest kids in America working on cutting edge scientific research and they marked them off for extra taxes. I don't know if that will remain when all is said and done but it would not surprise me in the least.



https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/28/gop-tax-plan-higher-education-263538
Perhaps the universities will have to dip into their multi-billion dollar endowments and pay them a little bit more to compensate. It's not the end of the world....things have a way of working out.
 
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WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
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You are spending too much time arguing Doc Savage Fan's mathematical certainty/assumption that 2 plus 2 equals both 5 and 3 but never 4. Depends on how hard you press your face to the blackboard and squint he says.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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Exactly...how is this going to harm the middle class? I must have missed that part during all your wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Since you couldn't be bothered to do any research on your own. I did it for you.

The report shows that the rich benefit and the poor are hurt in every way that it measures. For example, the effective tax rate—meaning the percentage that people, on average, actually pay after they take all deductions—changes in a precisely regressive form. The poorer you are, the higher your effective rate will rise. By 2027, only those making a hundred thousand a year or more will see an actual cut in their effective tax rate. And, as could be expected by now, the more they make, the greater the cut in their effective rate. By 2025, there is a direct transfer of money from the poor to the rich and corporations. This is not a flaw but the whole point, Harvard’s Martin Feldstein argues. Feldstein is, arguably, the single most widely respected Republican-leaning scholar of tax policy, and one of the few academics who came out in favor of the bill, in a Wall Street Journal op-ed. His defense, though, should not give much comfort to the bill’s proponents. He argues that cutting individual tax rates won’t increase economic growth and will add to the deficit—which, he acknowledges, is a bad thing. But he’s so excited about the corporate tax-rate cut that he thinks the bill should pass nonetheless. This is an odd stance, since the corporate rate cuts are about a third the size of the individual cuts.

You see Doc, when you have the greatest wealth inequality in American history, there really is no need for a tax plan to increase it. The professional studies conclusively demonstrate that this tax bill is a wealth transfer from the middle and lower classes to the extremely wealthy. Every PROFESSIONAL study I have seen is basically saying the same thing..... it is a wealth transfer thing and in no way helps the middle class.

The middle class paying more harms them financially. Expensive tax bills for gifted middle class college students harms them and America. Is this too complicated for you or are you trolling us?



https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-shocking-math-of-the-republican-tax-plan