GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
can I get a reference for that? regardless it comes out to the same ending as what I had thought.
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Catholics are not Christians?
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GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
With the cotroversy over the seemingly cut and dry verse I quoted, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," that is, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and all that that entails, and to be baptized, that is, I will be immersed/dipped into water for the reason that I am commanded to, as in a ritualistic washing away of sins - I'll propose a question: who's right and who's wrong?
Question part 2: Is the wrong side not saved because of this?
btw DougK62, did you believe in Jesus Christ / God when you were an infact and immersed?
Question part 2: Is the wrong side not saved because of this?
btw DougK62, did you believe in Jesus Christ / God when you were an infact and immersed?
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
that another thing I don't understand the teaching of. Jesus commanded us to confess our sins to him (in prayer), not some other person.
DougK62
Diamond Member
Here's a couple of definitions. The first from m-w.com and the second from dictionary.com:
1 a : a Christian sacrament marked by ritual use of water and admitting the recipient to the Christian community b : a non-Christian rite using water for ritual purification c Christian Science : purification by or submergence in Spirit
2 : an act, experience, or ordeal by which one is purified, sanctified, initiated, or name
1. A religious sacrament marked by the symbolic use of water and resulting in admission of the recipient into the community of Christians.
2. A ceremony, trial, or experience by which one is initiated, purified, or given a name.
So to answer you're question, YOU are wrong.
When I was baptised I naturally had no knowledge of god or Jesus. I could barely make bubbles out of my spit.
DougK62
Diamond Member
Where in the Bible does it say that you can't tell your friends about problems that you're having? This is what happens when you talk to your priest about your sins. In addition to asking god for forgiveness, you can tell a priest if you want to - he can give you advice and such. It's comforting. How is this a bad thing?
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
Since you believe I am wrong, please answer part 2 of my question.
Also, I am curious as to the religion of the person who wrote that definition. That's all it is in fact, someone's belief as to what a Christian is, just the same as what you believe it is and what I believe it is after interpretation from the Bible.
Since you didn't combat my meaning of baptism, "to be baptized, that is, I will be immersed/dipped into water for the reason that I am commanded to, as in a ritualistic washing away of sins" I'll assume you think it in the same way (correct me if I'm wrong.) So if you think of it in the same way, what sins did you have as an infant to be washed away?
hello! did you not pay attention to the posts? you do confess to Jesus or God and forgiveness is instant. you confess to the priest to help you out with the rest of the world. it feels good just to talk about it. did Jesus explicitly say "don't tell anyone but me about your sins"? i doubt it.
Ok, I hope I can set a few things straight without boring the hell out of people.
Christianity - a brief history, coming from an ex-protestant Orthodox who works with a Catholic Webdesign company.
From Christ's death until around 1000AD, there were 5 major cities that together made decisions for the Church as a whole. Rome was "The first among equals", but due to Charlemagne screwing with things and some other trouble, Rome went its seperate way, becoming the Roman Catholic (catholic meaning "true"), and the other 4 became the Orthodox church.
Then Martin Luther gets pissed at the Catholic Church in the 1500s, and his passion ignites the Protestant Reformation that has spawned the myriad of Protestant denominations.
Major differences:
Catholics and Orthodox have different views of original sin that propogate some different views of infant baptism, confession, and purgatory - but they all spawn from the view on original sin.
They have slightly different views on Mary - in Orthodoxy she is revered and honored (you are not required to cross yourself when honoring her, but it is allowed). She is the Theotokos, or Bearer of God - not the origin of, mearly the "bringer". In Catholocism, she is seen more as the source, and in the way that God came to man through Mary as Christ, man must go to God through Mary - it's nice sounding, but there is not much support for it. This is Mary as a Mediatrix between God and Man.
Both hold the Eucharist (communion) to be the most important sacrement. Protestants do it more as a token and it has lost most of its meaning. Catholics view the communion of protestants to be invalid (IE they are not saved). Orthodox hold a more lose view of it - there is an "invisible church" that extends beyond the bounds of the physical Orthodox church, and no one can say who is or who is not saved outside of that.
Oh - and Orthodox priests can be married before they become priests, so they don't have the whole pedophile thing going on.
It's rough, and not totally accurate, but close.
Personally, I think none of them are completely right - the Orthodox and the Catholics need to settle their differences and have the protestants return. But hey - that's just my thoughts on it.
Christianity - a brief history, coming from an ex-protestant Orthodox who works with a Catholic Webdesign company.
From Christ's death until around 1000AD, there were 5 major cities that together made decisions for the Church as a whole. Rome was "The first among equals", but due to Charlemagne screwing with things and some other trouble, Rome went its seperate way, becoming the Roman Catholic (catholic meaning "true"), and the other 4 became the Orthodox church.
Then Martin Luther gets pissed at the Catholic Church in the 1500s, and his passion ignites the Protestant Reformation that has spawned the myriad of Protestant denominations.
Major differences:
Catholics and Orthodox have different views of original sin that propogate some different views of infant baptism, confession, and purgatory - but they all spawn from the view on original sin.
They have slightly different views on Mary - in Orthodoxy she is revered and honored (you are not required to cross yourself when honoring her, but it is allowed). She is the Theotokos, or Bearer of God - not the origin of, mearly the "bringer". In Catholocism, she is seen more as the source, and in the way that God came to man through Mary as Christ, man must go to God through Mary - it's nice sounding, but there is not much support for it. This is Mary as a Mediatrix between God and Man.
Both hold the Eucharist (communion) to be the most important sacrement. Protestants do it more as a token and it has lost most of its meaning. Catholics view the communion of protestants to be invalid (IE they are not saved). Orthodox hold a more lose view of it - there is an "invisible church" that extends beyond the bounds of the physical Orthodox church, and no one can say who is or who is not saved outside of that.
Oh - and Orthodox priests can be married before they become priests, so they don't have the whole pedophile thing going on.
It's rough, and not totally accurate, but close.
Personally, I think none of them are completely right - the Orthodox and the Catholics need to settle their differences and have the protestants return. But hey - that's just my thoughts on it.
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
to be honest, no I didn't read all the posts....I skipped to the end. and you are right, Jesus did not say that. thanks for the clarification.
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
Can you give more detail on this millenia, as most ppl don't know this.
My beef with the Catholic "confession" is that it is part of the 'reconciliation' sacrament, and the sacraments are considered vital to practicing the faith. I believe that having an "accountability partner" to help keep you honest is a good thing, but I don't think it should be required other than confessing through prayer.
GtPrOjEcTX, my comment to you is that there doesn't have to be a RIGHT side and a WRONG side. I don't dispute that immersion is the "original" way, but it's nonsense to think that God would toss people aside b/c they didn't use enough water when they were baptised. If God is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful, why would someone accuse him of being that stupid?
The sins washed away when babies are baptised is the "original sin" that every human being inherits as a result of the actions of the first two.
GtPrOjEcTX, my comment to you is that there doesn't have to be a RIGHT side and a WRONG side. I don't dispute that immersion is the "original" way, but it's nonsense to think that God would toss people aside b/c they didn't use enough water when they were baptised. If God is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful, why would someone accuse him of being that stupid?
The sins washed away when babies are baptised is the "original sin" that every human being inherits as a result of the actions of the first two.
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
ah, a believer of original sin.
I'd like to hear you out and why you believe we are born with sin ( and verses to back it up ) if you would.
I thought Christians believed in an all powerful God ?
If so then how can a person decide for himself to be saved ? Or for that matter not saved ? By choosing to be baptized or not or the method of doing so ?
Doesn't the power to decide who is saved, and how, rest with God ? Won't God be pissed at people who think they have that power within themselves?
They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. If they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.
Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.
pulled that from www.carm.org.. lotta good info on that page about Christianity and other religions.
Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.
pulled that from www.carm.org.. lotta good info on that page about Christianity and other religions.
PlatinumGold
Lifer
it depends on your definition of sin. John speaks of a sin which leads onto death and a sin that does not lead onto death.
the whole sin issue is defined for us in Genesis and the creation account.
God formed man of the dust of the earth and placed the breath of life in him and he became a living soul.
the breath of life in genesis = the spirit in john 3. where jesus says, you must be born of the spirit to understand spiritual things.
when adam and eve sinned the first time, this breath of life departed and they died as living souls, they became what we are now, living breathing carbon based life forms but without spiritual life. that's what being born again is all about, being re invigorated by the spirit of god.
so all babies are born without this spirit and are therefore sinners.
PlatinumGold
Lifer
i don't believe that man can choose god, i believe that god has to reveal himself to man individually in very real and concrete experiences (not just reading a book) and that experience (the born again experience) enables the person to choose or reject god.
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
note the bolded part of my post you quoted. To expand on that yes we believe in an all powerful God.
A person can decide whether or not to be saved yes. Anyone can be saved, they just have to follow His commandments, one of them being the one under discussion, "believe and be baptised".
An analogy was told to me once and works quite well with this.
Say Joe and Mark are having a conversation...
Joe: Mark, I'll give you $100. Here is a check for $100. To actually get the $100 you have to take the check, and go to the back and cash/deposit it.
Mark: Can I have the $100 if I don't take the check?
Joe: No
Mark: Can I have the #100 if I don't deposit it?
Joe: No
Moral? We were given guidelines to follow in order to be saved. If we don't do them, we aren't saved.
I don't necessary believe in the exact words "original sin," nor do I agree with baptising infants, but humans by definition are fallible and all men will sin in their lifetimes. I'm not going to hand you biblical verses - I'm not a biblical scholar and I will not pretend to be one.
CubicZirconia
Diamond Member
GtPrOjEcTX - do you take the entire Bible literally?
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
Baptism isn't a man made ritual. Jesus baptized people, and told us to follow in suit.
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
Well, good, I don't have to say much as you already don't believe in original sin as I thought you originally proposed.
who said baptism was a man made ritual? i have nothing against baptism....
but good job pulling one little sentence out of my entire post and pointing out its irrelevance to the topic... the argument is simply stating that not any man made ritual will save you. Who could argue that baptism is a man-made ritual?
GtPrOjEcTX
Lifer
I have never heard this argument and am interested on where you make the connection of "the breath of life in genesis = the spirit in john 3."
I've always assumed, "the breath of life" was just that God made Adam's body out of dust, then made him become alive. That's all.
JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
...
JOHN 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
I think these are the verses you are refering to. I was not baptized in any context of the word when I was an infant. I was baptised when I was 12 years old when I realized that I had sinned in my life and sin separated me from God. I believed, and realized I had to follow His commandment to be baptised in order to be saved (cut and dry verse). I was baptized and started a new life.
The way I see it is if you are correctly interpretting those verses I wouldn't have realized what I did when I was 12, as I never was baptised as an infant and had the breathe of life or the spirit back in me. But I did realize that I was wrong in life. So I can't see how your interpretation is correct.
BTW, if original sin ever did exist ( and it may have in the old testament times, I'm not sure ) then Jesus put it to rest when he died on the cross for all of our sins, didn't he?
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