Catholic girl tries to take on Richard Dawkins: [vid]

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Nov 29, 2006
15,922
4,493
136
i think you're kidding yourself if you think that's what most atheists would say. most atheists i know say "there's no such thing as god"... you know it.

99% of people who say they are Athiests are actually Agnostic Athiests if you want to get technical. So youd be wrong in assuming most would say what you think. In fact if someone were to tell me "There is no God" id ask for proof of this. And he wouldnt have any, just as a Theist wouldnt have any. A true 100% Athiest (or Gnostic Athiest per the chart) is as foolish as a Theist. And im sure more here would agree with me on this one.

chart.png
 
Last edited:

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Another species isn't necessary. You simply have to acknowledge that like the dog and calculus, there are vasts amount of things you are not capable of understanding logically.

Unless you believe we are supremely intelligent and no other thing in the universe has reached out level of understanding.
I would have no issue with this. Bacteria can't even think on a level like we can; they don't have the physiological structures necessary for it.


But it’s Dawkins who is lazy. Cowardly. How easy is it to stand behind only that which can be demonstrably proven? If I say water boils at 100 degrees, does that make me a courageous thinker? No, because I’m absolutely confident anyone who turns on their stove would find me right.

So we accept that there is a border region, with knowledge, a gray area were fewer and fewer humans can understand. And eventually nobody can ever understand.
Religion and philosophy attempt to move beyond that frontier. Not to provide absolute answers, always, but to try to understand in broad strokes what is beyond our capability to know.
"This concept is beyond our capability to know." And then they proceed to explain how it works:|, right until it starts to smack into the hard boundaries of reality. "Ok, well this is the boundary of how much we know about things we can't understand."


If we are not to stand behind evidence and proof, then what do we have? Blind faith? Believing that for which we have no good reason to? What is the distinction between that and basic insanity? Every action we engage in is based on hard evidence, including even the simplest of activities, such as moving about without crashing into walls. That cowardly evidence from experience says that you're going to get hurt if you walk into something, or fail to move your legs in a way that keeps you upright. All the faith in the world won't let you float to work, ignoring gravity and physical laws. Sure, you can do some mental tricks to think that you've floated, but then we're back at that "insanity" thing again.

Philosophy can muse on the idea of, "Ok, so we're here now. Huh. Well how 'bout that." Religion often serves to institutionalize these musings, all too often with excessive zeal, and almost invariably littered with the supernatural.
Philosophy can ponder the "whys" without the requirement of some other guiding force. Again, if there is this guiding force, it's either outside of our capability to measure it by any means, which starts to point away from evidence for its existence (if it can affect us, the effect has the potential to be measurable by the simple fact of its effects), or it is so far beyond us that, like the bacteria, it's not something we're anywhere close to perceiving.
I guess the question then: A bacterium perceives a human, on some level. But how can it perceive us? Would it perceive us as we perceive a galaxy? Just another natural thing that does its thing? It doesn't have the ability to think of itself as a living thing, or as any kind of anything. But it can still interact with us chemically, and simply as a place to exist.

Even then though, the human it lives in is still not a god or supernatural entity. It's just a life form of a different sort.
Or let's say that there's some extraterrestrial life form out there, advanced many millions of years beyond us. I can see that as possible. It's a damn big, damn old Universe, and I think it's nuts to say that this planet is the only instance of life developing. But this life form is still not supernatural. It's just more advanced.
(I don't even care for the term "supernatural." So it's outside of nature? Wouldn't that just mean that our previous definition of "nature" was incorrect, and thus expands automatically to include the newly-discovered "stuff?")

I'll also make a distinction between "faith" and "blind faith."
One uses that darned cowardly evidence. The other doesn't.

I could say that I have faith that I can give someone $10 and be able to get something of value back. "Backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." And they of course have faith that that cheap piece of paper will still retain some value. But there's evidence to support that faith. So calling it "faith" comes with some backing.

Love often gets brought up as well as some sort of "higher" thing. Welcome to Mammal Bonding Behavior 101. Yeah, we do the same things, just with a bigger brain behind it all.
So how do you know that someone loves you back? Magic? Or is it in fact a function of the sizable body of evidence you've got that's based on their behavior towards you? And as we see by humanity's long, long history with relationship problems, that faith often gets misplaced, which occurs when evidence is not seen, not available, not understood, or not acknowledged. Once again, "faith" carries evidence.

Blind faith throws away that tether. I don't know what you're left with then, but it's not something I'd want to use as a foundation for anything.



Dogs are not "logical," and there will not exist something "more logical" than humans. Logic itself is a human language. You are abusing logic by trying to draw conclusions from inappropriate applications of it.
They can still follow their own reasoning though, limited as it is.

Logic is something of a language, yes. Same with mathematics. (Just illustrating a point here...) Some people say that it's amazing that math just happens to match the way the Universe works. But, of course, they've looked at it backwards. The Universe works the way it does. Math is a language for describing its behavior. Pi is 3.14159.... That wasn't some miraculous coincidence that we came up with that number. That's an inherent property of circles in this Universe. We simply wrote it down for future reference, a placeholder, so that we wouldn't need to draw a circle and figure it all out again every single time it was needed.

Logic can allow ideas to remain sorted and organized. "This and this and this, therefore this." It's mathematics for non-numeric concepts. A dog can behave by its logic, as best as it can. But just like us, its behavior doesn't always need to listen to the logic. "Chew on sofa, and get punishment. But chewing is fun!" Though even that...is that logical? Evaluate the action and the consequences, and make a choice. Or even failing to evaluate consequences and choosing an action anyway - there's still a thought process that went on there.
 
Last edited:

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
I believe in God more than the very air that is entering my lungs each breath.

What reason do you have for believing in something (God) without evidence over something (air) that there is plenty of evidence for?

When you get to that point, every single excuse us humans make about the existence or lack of existence or lack of evidence of God just seems so silly. And if you aren't at that point, you of course will think me silly instead.

If you want to know what I think of your beliefs you should ask instead of merely taking a guess. You are only guessing I would think you are silly without any evidence to that effect. I wouldn't be so dismissive, arrogant, nor disrespectful as to call you silly just because you have a different set of beliefs than I do. And so I urge you to use more respectful language when referring to people with differing beliefs than words like silly. It's a struggle that even I have had when emotions overcome my more logical self. ;)
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
99% of people who say they are Athiests are actually Agnostic Athiests if you want to get technical. So youd be wrong in assuming most would say what you think. In fact if someone were to tell me "There is no God" id ask for proof of this. And he wouldnt have any, just as a Theist wouldnt have any. A true 100% Athiest (or Gnostic Athiest per the chart) is as foolish as a Theist. And im sure more here would agree with me on this one.

chart.png

I don't agree with this chart at all. First of all, we can all agree there is no evidence for or against a deity yes? Then there is NO 100% for any of it.

Here is how I define the terms:

Theist: Believes in a deity.
Atheist: Does not believe in a deity.
Agnostic: Does not know and does not believe it can be tested therefore it cannot yet be known.

I would consider myself Agnostic. I think it's a mistake to assign numbers to an untestable, unmeasurable quantity. If you say it cannot be 100% known then what percentage do you assign your beliefs? Are they quantifiable?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
I don't agree with this chart at all. First of all, we can all agree there is no evidence for or against a deity yes? Then there is NO 100% for any of it.

Here is how I define the terms:

Theist: Believes in a deity.
Atheist: Does not believe in a deity.
Agnostic: Does not know and does not believe it can be tested therefore it cannot yet be known.

I would consider myself Agnostic. I think it's a mistake to assign numbers to an untestable, unmeasurable quantity. If you say it cannot be 100% known then what percentage do you assign your beliefs? Are they quantifiable?

Many Theists claim to have "evidence" of god. It's just not evidence that they can show anyone else, because it's a personal emotion or experience.
 

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
What reason do you have for believing in something (God) without evidence over something (air) that there is plenty of evidence for?



If you want to know what I think of your beliefs you should ask instead of merely taking a guess. You are only guessing I would think you are silly without any evidence to that effect. I wouldn't be so dismissive, arrogant, nor disrespectful as to call you silly just because you have a different set of beliefs than I do. And so I urge you to use more respectful language when referring to people with differing beliefs than words like silly. It's a struggle that even I have had when emotions overcome my more logical self. ;)

Because the evidence in my own life, my relationship with Him, His undeniable presence for me. These are things that I cannot personally prove to others, but are more real than anything for me.


I think my 'guess' applies to 99% of persons on this message board, my apologies to you. I've never met the 1% before, how are you good sir ?;)
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
99% of people who say they are Athiests are actually Agnostic Athiests if you want to get technical. So youd be wrong in assuming most would say what you think. In fact if someone were to tell me "There is no God" id ask for proof of this. And he wouldnt have any, just as a Theist wouldnt have any. A true 100% Athiest (or Gnostic Athiest per the chart) is as foolish as a Theist. And im sure more here would agree with me on this one.

chart.png

that's a cop-out. i don't recognize that weak "i'm an atheist... and by atheist, i mean i'm agnostic" bullshit.

you're either atheist or you're not. you either believe there's no such thing as god or you don't (know).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
that's a cop-out. i don't recognize that weak "i'm an atheist... and by atheist, i mean i'm agnostic" bullshit.

you're either atheist or you're not. you either believe there's no such thing as god or you don't (know).

Keep raging against the Strawman.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
0
I never understand religious people who say atheism is a religion. It is the absence of it. This just demonstrates such flawed reasoning and rationality. To believe so blindly in something with "0"proof, and deny facts in science, and abandon critical thinking makes me wonder if these people suffer from some weird mental illness...lol
 

Leros

Lifer
Jul 11, 2004
21,867
7
81
I never understand religious people who say atheism is a religion. It is the absence of it. This just demonstrates such flawed reasoning and rationality. To believe so blindly in something with "0"proof, and deny facts in science, and abandon critical thinking makes me wonder if these people suffer from some weird mental illness...lol

Atheism is the absence of religion. Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that being healthy is an illness (when in fact, being healthy is just the absence of illness).
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
35,188
2,340
126
Holy crap. It's an hour of her, asking for evidence then ignoring what he's giving her. How incredibly frustrating.

Yeah, this is hard to watch. It's like watching someone trying to stand in the road and will a car to stop before it hits them.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
i don't recognize that weak "i'm an atheist... and by atheist, i mean i'm agnostic" bullshit.
That is your prerogative. It definitely identifies you as an ignorant person to those who understand the english language, but hey, if you don't mind being that person, get down wit'cher bad self.

you're either atheist or you're not.
Actually, you're either a theist or you're not. Atheism only has meaning in its dichotomous opposition to theism. Yes, I understand you'll have to look those words up. Go ahead. I'll wait. :colbert:

you either believe there's no such thing as god or you don't (know).
The opposite of believing is not believing. Not knowing is not the opposite of believing.

Let me see if I can explain this in Moron-ese, so you can wrap your tiny little mind around it.

1.) Theism is the belief that a god exists.
2.) Atheism is the opposite of Theism.
3.) The opposite of believing something (X) is not believing (X).
.'. Atheism is not believing a god exists.

You have suggested that Atheism is believing that no gods exist. The mistake in this suggestion is that it erroneously supposes that the opposite of believing X is to believe not-X. This is a fallacy evident to any one with an IQ greater than his shoe size. In simple grammatical terms, the opposite of doing something is not doing that thing. It is not the opposite to do something else. For example, the opposite of playing poker is not playing poker. Playing Go Fish is not the opposite of playing poker.

Also

It is coherent and consistent to believe X while not knowing that X is true (or even that not-X is true).
It is coherent and consistent to not believe X while not knowing that X is true (or even that not-X is true).

Now go ahead and tell me how you still refuse to acknowledge this "bullshit" and let's hear the merits of your refusal.
 
Last edited:

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
Facepalm.

Love is a very real, observable chemical reaction in the brain.

Your magical man in the sky is not.

The point, was that love is something right ? Whether you want to believe it is an emotion, or a chemical reaction, or both. It is something real that nobody is going to contradict.

So if somebody has a 'feeling' or 'emotion' of what they believe to be God. Is this to be discredited as being 'nothing' ?

I'm not saying that people don't have feelings that certainly are not God, but to say that somebody's experiences and even feelings that are something more or other than what they have ever understood or experienced without a faith in God (or religion as you may call it) is bad theology. At the very least, it needs to be considered possible.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
The point, was that love is something right ? Whether you want to believe it is an emotion, or a chemical reaction, or both. It is something real that nobody is going to contradict.

So if somebody has a 'feeling' or 'emotion' of what they believe to be God. Is this to be discredited as being 'nothing' ?

I'm not saying that people don't have feelings that certainly are not God, but to say that somebody's experiences and even feelings that are something more or other than what they have ever understood or experienced without a faith in God (or religion as you may call it) is bad theology. At the very least, it needs to be considered possible.

That would be mis-attribution.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
That is your prerogative. It definitely identifies you as an ignorant person to those who understand the english language, but hey, if you don't mind being that person, get down wit'cher bad self.


Actually, you're either a theist or you're not. Atheism only has meaning in its dichotomous opposition to theism. Yes, I understand you'll have to look those words up. Go ahead. I'll wait. :colbert:


The opposite of believing is not believing. Not knowing is not the opposite of believing.

Let me see if I can explain this in Moron-ese, so you can wrap your tiny little mind around it.

1.) Theism is the belief that a god exists.
2.) Atheism is the opposite of Theism.
3.) The opposite of believing something (X) is not believing (X).
.'. Atheism is not believing a god exists.

You have suggested that Atheism is believing that no gods exist. The mistake in this suggestion is that it erroneously supposes that the opposite of believing X is to believe not-X. This is a fallacy evident to any one with an IQ greater than his shoe size. In simple grammatical terms, the opposite of doing something is not doing that thing. It is not the opposite to do something else. For example, the opposite of playing poker is not playing poker. Playing Go Fish is not the opposite of playing poker.

Also

It is coherent and consistent to believe X while not knowing that X is true (or even that not-X is true).
It is coherent and consistent to not believe X while not knowing that X is true (or even that not-X is true).

Now go ahead and tell me how you still refuse to acknowledge this "bullshit" and let's hear the merits of your refusal.

lol christ, you're ridiculous.

believing no god exists and not believing god exists are basically the same thing. you're getting into semantics when it's not necessary.

atheists don't believe in a supreme being or god or whatever you'd like to call it.

the difference between atheism and agnosticism is that atheists don't believe there's a god. to them, there's no god because there's been no evidence to support it. however, to an agnostic, they are not sure whether there's a god or not for the same reason both ways; there hasn't been evidence to confirm nor deny the existence of a god. that doesn't mean that you don't believe in a god.

there's a definite distinction between atheism and agnosticism. to try and lump agnosticism into atheism is ridiculous. you either believe, you don't, or you aren't sure/don't care because you'll never know, so there's no point in dwelling and arguing over it.

by the way, you can be as big a condescending dick as you want. it really doesn't even bother me and it makes you look like this guy.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
lol christ, you're ridiculous.

believing no god exists and not believing god exists are basically the same thing. you're getting into semantics when it's not necessary.

atheists don't believe in a supreme being or god or whatever you'd like to call it.

the difference between atheism and agnosticism is that atheists don't believe there's a god. to them, there's no god because there's been no evidence to support it. however, to an agnostic, they are not sure whether there's a god or not for the same reason both ways; there hasn't been evidence to confirm nor deny the existence of a god. that doesn't mean that you don't believe in a god.

there's a definite distinction between atheism and agnosticism. to try and lump agnosticism into atheism is ridiculous. you either believe, you don't, or you aren't sure/don't care because you'll never know, so there's no point in dwelling and arguing over it.

by the way, you can be as big a condescending dick as you want. it really doesn't even bother me and it makes you look like this guy.

This has been splained to you repeatedly. You are simply wrong. Take some time to figure out why.
 

eits

Lifer
Jun 4, 2005
25,015
3
81
www.integratedssr.com
This has been splained to you repeatedly. You are simply wrong. Take some time to figure out why.

but here's the thing... i'm not wrong.

atheism is the belief that there's no god (or in other words, the rejection of the belief in god).

agnosticism is is the belief that whether or not god exists can't be proven or known for certain.

therefore, those who call themselves atheists are trusting that because of the lack of evidence whatsoever that there is a god, there is no such thing as god. those who call themselves (whatever theist religion) are trusting that regardless of the fact that there's a lack of evidence whatsoever that there is a god, god exists.

they are both equally arrogant in the sense that sense that they feel strongly one way or the other in that their viewpoints are right and the other side are ridiculous.

see, all that keeps being explained to me is basically, "no, you're wrong. you're wrong because atheists are ALSO allowed to be agnostic... see (silly mspaint bullshit dichotomy)? get it now?"

since when did english words with latin/greek roots suddenly stop working and becoming whatever people wished they would mean instead??
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
but here's the thing... i'm not wrong.

atheism is the belief that there's no god (or in other words, the rejection of the belief in god).

agnosticism is is the belief that whether or not god exists can't be proven or known for certain.

therefore, those who call themselves atheists are trusting that because of the lack of evidence whatsoever that there is a god, there is no such thing as god. those who call themselves (whatever theist religion) are trusting that regardless of the fact that there's a lack of evidence whatsoever that there is a god, god exists.

they are both equally arrogant in the sense that sense that they feel strongly one way or the other in that their viewpoints are right and the other side are ridiculous.

see, all that keeps being explained to me is basically, "no, you're wrong. you're wrong because atheists are ALSO allowed to be agnostic... see (silly mspaint bullshit dichotomy)? get it now?"

since when did english words with latin/greek roots suddenly stop working and becoming whatever people wished they would mean instead??

Ask yourself.
 

Annisman*

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2010
1,931
95
91
To those of us who believe in God there is plenty of evidence, that is where you guys are wrong. But every single unbeliever has no evidence either way. Its the less logical position afterall.