Caterpillar says health care bill would cost it 100M

[Patranus]

No, you STFU and get a clue:

1. I am not rich.
2. Government subsidized food? Who said anything about me agreeing with that? Would you like to go off on more tangents and allow me to list the things I disagree with?

That is the problem with you guys. "Well, the gov't already does A, B, and C, so it might as well do X, Y, and Z too!" No, it shouldn't. What SHOULD be done is reasonable, legitimate reform with ample provisions for real cost containment.

P.S. The gov't shouldn't be subsiding many things it subsidizes.

The ironic thing is that much of what is sold in the super market is above its free market value because of government.

 

[Modelworks]

Maybe I didnt make myself clear but we agree. I worry what the hospital is charging those with insurance for the crutch not what they bought the crutch for. As now the pool paying into the system becomes larger then the need to overcharge for an item goes down.

You leave out the reason why health care cost went up in the first place. Look at the history of health insurance. Health care cost didn't increase because cost increased, it increased because the medical industry now had someone to pay more so they could charge more. Before insurance entered into health care , cost for a doctor were the same as cost for other professions. When you are dealing with something that people have to use you can charge what you want. They can charge you 1000 x what it cost them for the crutch. What are you going to do in the hospital with your new cast , crawl home ?

They are not overcharging because their cost is high, they are overcharging because they can. You can't compare health care to other free market items like cars where if I don't like the price I can go somewhere else. When you are dying in the ER you pay whatever they want.

 

[cirrrocco]

Good lord your version of America would suck hard.

Yeah Jeffery would love to build his own roads when he wants to travel. he also only uses fedex or ups and never USPS.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You leave out the reason why health care cost went up in the first place. Look at the history of health insurance. Health care cost didn't increase because cost increased, it increased because the medical industry now had someone to pay more so they could charge more. Before insurance entered into health care , cost for a doctor were the same as cost for other professions. When you are dealing with something that people have to use you can charge what you want. They can charge you 1000 x what it cost them for the crutch. What are you going to do in the hospital with your new cast , crawl home ?

They are not overcharging because their cost is high, they are overcharging because they can. You can't compare health care to other free market items like cars where if I don't like the price I can go somewhere else. When you are dying in the ER you pay whatever they want.

There's this terrific urban legend that hospitals can charge whatever they want and get paid for what they bill, and that the material cost of the product in some way relates to the service associated with it.

If what you are saying is true, why did hospitals have to merge or go bankrupt a few years back when reimbursements were changed? I drive a 2005 Impala. I wish I had the kind of money some thing I must have.

So suppose you were say, someone who works on multimedia for Hollywood, and you land a contract to make SFX. Let's see, there's the cost of the disks to distribute, and a computer and monitor.

You should be making about 5k a year.

Here is how you can make hospitals charge less.

Allow them to refuse treatment to those who can't pay or who have bad credit. If a patient comes into the ER, and it's not life threatening, they have to see someone else. If they are wrong, too bad. They are legally protected. Time is money.

Specialists spend a lot of time training and are costly. Patients can only get sick with something needing general treatment unless it's between 9 and 5 Monday through Friday.

Here's a big one. If the situation is more complicated than anticipated the hospital sometimes has to eat the cost. So when the expense of treating the patient exceeds what will be paid, the patient leaves. Again, the hospital is immune from lawsuits. It's what people wanted after all.








Hospitals function around the clock. There is staff to take care of people and anticipated needs which do not always materialize. They cannot control the workload. They cannot reduce staffing because staffing is always cut to barely safe levels to begin with. Costs you know.

I'm still waiting for my Lambo.

 

[JSt0rm]

You leave out the reason why health care cost went up in the first place. Look at the history of health insurance. Health care cost didn't increase because cost increased, it increased because the medical industry now had someone to pay more so they could charge more. Before insurance entered into health care , cost for a doctor were the same as cost for other professions. When you are dealing with something that people have to use you can charge what you want. They can charge you 1000 x what it cost them for the crutch. What are you going to do in the hospital with your new cast , crawl home ?

They are not overcharging because their cost is high, they are overcharging because they can. You can't compare health care to other free market items like cars where if I don't like the price I can go somewhere else. When you are dying in the ER you pay whatever they want.

Last point first. If you will pay whatever they want then we need government cost controls to make sure they don't charge you 97% of your worth because they can. Because people would pay it. If the hospitals made you give them access to all your financial records and then they charged you 97% or you die you would pay. You would.

Do you have studies that show causation that health care costs have gone up because of health insurance? Because I'm pretty sure if you don't have insurance the cost for the procedure is more because you don't have bargaining power. I would also argue that as procedures became more complicated and specialized that would increase cost as well.

You can believe what you want but we need a uhc system in this country to compete.

 

[Hacp]

There's this terrific urban legend that hospitals can charge whatever they want and get paid for what they bill, and that the material cost of the product in some way relates to the service associated with it.

If what you are saying is true, why did hospitals have to merge or go bankrupt a few years back when reimbursements were changed? I drive a 2005 Impala. I wish I had the kind of money some thing I must have.

So suppose you were say, someone who works on multimedia for Hollywood, and you land a contract to make SFX. Let's see, there's the cost of the disks to distribute, and a computer and monitor.

You should be making about 5k a year.

Here is how you can make hospitals charge less.

Allow them to refuse treatment to those who can't pay or who have bad credit. If a patient comes into the ER, and it's not life threatening, they have to see someone else. If they are wrong, too bad. They are legally protected. Time is money.

Specialists spend a lot of time training and are costly. Patients can only get sick with something needing general treatment unless it's between 9 and 5 Monday through Friday.

Here's a big one. If the situation is more complicated than anticipated the hospital sometimes has to eat the cost. So when the expense of treating the patient exceeds what will be paid, the patient leaves. Again, the hospital is immune from lawsuits. It's what people wanted after all.

Hospitals function around the clock. There is staff to take care of people and anticipated needs which do not always materialize. They cannot control the workload. They cannot reduce staffing because staffing is always cut to barely safe levels to begin with. Costs you know.

I'm still waiting for my Lambo.

This is because of excess regulation. If we tore down the regulations, then hospitals can operate whenever they so please. You ask any small business to stay open 24 hours a day and most likely they will go broke.

 

[Acanthus]

And who is paying for these peoples insurance?

Hint: The TAXPAYER

read an econ book, any of them.

jesus christ...

you pay for it already, blocking this changes nothing.

passing this at least acknowledges that there is a problem and takes steps to remedy it.

You either pay for it in insurance premiums under the current system, which are on a death spiral of costs rising as more and more americans cant afford it. Or you pay for it officially, and the people get preventative care rather than the order of magnitude cost increase of "emergency only" care.

This is not a hard concept. Use your fucking heads. This isn't a hard argument.

This isn't even a liberal concept per-se. It's the free market gone awry.

 

[Zebo]

Meh. Move to China everyone is doing it.

 

[Patranus]

Or you pay for it officially, and the people get preventative care rather than the order of magnitude cost increase of "emergency only" care.

Maybe you are the one who should read a book.

The passage of MassHealth in Massachusetts did NOTHING to reduce the use of use emergency rooms as a source of primary care.

NOTHING.

Now Massachusetts is facing a $300 million dollar budget shortfall because of it.

Oh, but because Obama says this will be different on a national level it will be different.

 

[shiner]

This is because of excess regulation. If we tore down the regulations, then hospitals can operate whenever they so please. You ask any small business to stay open 24 hours a day and most likely they will go broke.

So your plan is to kick patients out the door at 5pm and tell them to come back the next day at 8am?

 

[Fern]

-snip-
passing this at least acknowledges that there is a problem and takes steps to remedy it.

We don't need to pass something to acknowldge a problem that is already acknowldged.

And, NO, this bill doesn't take steps to remedy the problem. The problem is high costs, the remedy is cost reduction not cost shifting.

and the people get preventative care rather than the order of magnitude cost increase of "emergency only" care.

It's well documented and has been demonstrated in numerous studies that "preventative care" doesn't save on costs, it increases them due to the costs of unnecessary tests/procedures/exams on healthy people.

Fern

 

[Zebo]

The CBO is lying too. People I talk with will start 1099ing and part timing like crazy making gov't pick up HC tab. Just triple any estimate .gov gives if you want to be conservative..There is simply no way an American employer can afford this new business model of insuring everyone, no conditions, with private plans. Premiums will jump at least 200% and .gov will be liable in most cases. Just wait. Then you have matter of greatly accelerating off shoring IMO the #1 problem in the first place. w/o production jobs all your parasite jobs falls apart around them. e.g. gov't, banking, insurance.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by Throckmorton
Hey rich dude. Did you go to the grocery this month? Did you buy government subsidized food? Yes you did. Now STFU.

No, you STFU and get a clue:

1. I am not rich.
2. Government subsidized food? Who said anything about me agreeing with that? Would you like to go off on more tangents and allow me to list the things I disagree with?

That is the problem with you guys. "Well, the gov't already does A, B, and C, so it might as well do X, Y, and Z too!" No, it shouldn't. What SHOULD be done is reasonable, legitimate reform with ample provisions for real cost containment.

P.S. The gov't shouldn't be subsiding many things it subsidizes.

You already admitted earlier in the thread you are "Upper Middle Class" rich dude.

 

[Patranus]

Originally Posted by Throckmorton
Hey rich dude. Did you go to the grocery this month? Did you buy government subsidized food? Yes you did. Now STFU.




You already admitted earlier in the thread you are "Upper Middle Class" rich dude.

Actually, the price of food a well above the free market as government pays farmers to NOT produce certain crops on their land.

 

[JSt0rm]

So your plan is to kick patients out the door at 5pm and tell them to come back the next day at 8am?

hes full of good plans like that

 

[Darwin333]

I think in the back of their mind, conservatives do see it, even they aren't that stupid. But they would never acknowledge it because it doesn't fit their ideology.

So.... since we are providing basically the same services we already are, or cheaper alternatives such as visits to the doctors office instead of the ER, we can all expect our overall healthcare costs (taxes collected for healthcare and health insurance costs) to remain the same or go down, right?

The logic makes sense to a point but the math isn't adding up.

 

[Darwin333]

read an econ book, any of them.

jesus christ...

you pay for it already, blocking this changes nothing.

passing this at least acknowledges that there is a problem and takes steps to remedy it.

You either pay for it in insurance premiums under the current system, which are on a death spiral of costs rising as more and more americans cant afford it. Or you pay for it officially, and the people get preventative care rather than the order of magnitude cost increase of "emergency only" care.

This is not a hard concept. Use your fucking heads. This isn't a hard argument.

This isn't even a liberal concept per-se. It's the free market gone awry.

So my healthcare costs are actually going to remain flat or go down, right? The new taxes on my health insurance policy will be offset by the decrease in my premiums since we are already paying it right?

I agree, we are already paying it but now they are going to tax me to pay for it too. So unless my costs go down somewhere else I am basically paying for it twice. As fucked up as it is, the old way sounds better than paying more for, as you argue, what we are already getting.

 

[shiner]

Originally Posted by Throckmorton
Hey rich dude. Did you go to the grocery this month? Did you buy government subsidized food? Yes you did. Now STFU.

You already admitted earlier in the thread you are "Upper Middle Class" rich dude.

Upper Middle Class is not rich. Well maybe to you since you can't seem to keep a job due to your stupidity, but Upper Middle Class is not rich.

Plus you already admitted earlier in this thread that you want the United States to turn into a North American Somalia so that everyone can be "equal" so you really need to STFU.

 

[flavio]

Plus you already admitted earlier in this thread that you want the United States to turn into a North American Somalia so that everyone can be "equal" so you really need to STFU.

Where was that? Got a quote?

 

[shiner]

Where was that? Got a quote?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You already admitted earlier in the thread you are "Upper Middle Class" rich dude.

Please learn to read -- I said I was middle class and upper middle class at the very most -- nowhere near "rich." Why don't you spend your energy actually achieving things instead of continuing to be a total failure and being jealous of others?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Upper Middle Class is not rich. Well maybe to you since you can't seem to keep a job due to your stupidity, but Upper Middle Class is not rich.

Plus you already admitted earlier in this thread that you want the United States to turn into a North American Somalia so that everyone can be "equal" so you really need to STFU.

Dave McOWNED described to the letter. :awe:

 

[nick1985]

dave mcowen, lol. Go buy more vinegar dude

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

This is EXACTLY the problem. People like you think people DESERVE to have insurance. How about people should pay their own fucking way? It's called a BENEFIT meaning an added perk of the job. It is in no way a deserved or mandated thing.

There are to many bleeding heart pansies in this country that think people DESERVE everything, instead of getting it themselves.

Geez, you a disgrace to this country with you attitude.

So in your opinion, if someone doesn't have insurance, then:

-A parent with a sick kid couldn't be treated and left to possibly die
-Someone having a heart attack should just be left to die
-Any acute injury, unless you can cough up the money to pay, is left untreated?

Are you serious? You would prefer to let lots of people just die in the streets/home since they don't have insurance?

Do you also believe we don't deserve police and fire services?

 

[Patranus]

-A parent with a sick kid couldn't be treated and left to possibly die
-Someone having a heart attack should just be left to die
-Any acute injury, unless you can cough up the money to pay, is left untreated?

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. You assume that payment is required BEFORE treatment. That is simply not the case.

Anyone can walk into any emergency room and will receive care regardless of their age, sex, race, sexual orientation, legal status, or ability to pay.