Cash for Clunkers Final Numbers

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: spidey07
That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

The income/money of hundreds of thousands of American workers doesn't matter?

To most people Buy American means American companies with American labor.

With some items I pretty much will not buy since they are American owned and the product is American made. Typically, the cost of the product is much higher tha nit should be because Ralph with a Jr. High education is making $35/hr screwing in 4 screws or operating a lathe.
Many American companies have priced themselves out of compitition. If I can get a product that is 10% less "functional" for 60% less, I'll go with what the best VALUE is.

If you are into guns at all, you'll see what I'm talking about. An aimpoint red dot optic costs anywhere from $400-$600 depending on the model. How is it a Chinese company can offer a pretty close "clone" of one for $50-$100? You;d think there was some super secret method handed down through the ages on how to make these things, but it's a tube of aluminum, with a diode, a circuit board and some glass.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Patranus
The question is, how many of the auto dealerships have been repaid. Under law they are required to get repaid in 10 days. There have been news stories where dealerships have been owed over a million dollars and have been waiting more than 20 days. That is a large chunk of change to float to the government. How is a dealership going to pay its bills?

GM guaranteed to their dealers that they would cover the gov't until the gov't paid the dealers, and the dealers would pay GM back interest free

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
there is no way that this will NOT do the exact same thing.

Remember this was a bunch of people sitting on clunkers unwilling to buy. People with say a 1986 Ford Escort and willing to drive it to its death really aren't near-term future demand. Sure, someday it would die, but that could have been 10 years into the future. All sales of any product are lost future sales. So, should we ban all sales of anything so that we don't harm future sales?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Given car purchases prior to the announcement of the C4C program, what would car sales have been anyway? How many people held off on purchases because there was several months worth of rumors that the program was going to be coming later in the year? How many people pushed their planned purchases ahead of schedule due to the program?

Until someone does that kind of analysis, don't jump for joy about the success of the program.

It's almost impossible to tell. Many certainly were unwilling to Purchase a Vehicle given the Economic climate. That we know.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
history 101... a few years ago some now liquidated company ran some program in order to clear out inventory by offering great deals to anyone... It was a huge success, they sold an insane amount of vehicles during this program, and cleared out the unsold inventory that were piling up on dealer lots...

history 102... this company fell hard the following months because they had pulled demand forward, not created new demand

there is no way that this will NOT do the exact same thing.

Heh that reminds me of a story my dad tells about a company he worked for in the 1980s. He basically took their sales from 50,000 in the region to about 2 million in 24 months. He was on a sales conference for the company and got a Minneapolis newspaper and saw the company was looking for a replacement for him. He gets back into town and called all his customers and explained what was happening and asked if they could purchase extra inventory. They all purchased a lot. In his last month he sold about 1.5 million worth of inverntory. Got a nice comission check and then was fired. His replacement didnt sell shit for 2 years after he left.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Patranus
The question is, how many of the auto dealerships have been repaid. Under law they are required to get repaid in 10 days. There have been news stories where dealerships have been owed over a million dollars and have been waiting more than 20 days. That is a large chunk of change to float to the government. How is a dealership going to pay its bills?

GM guaranteed to their dealers that they would cover the gov't until the gov't paid the dealers, and the dealers would pay GM back interest free

Isnt that like saying the govt guranteed the govt would pay them?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment doubled its return and people complain.

That $6B+ of American compay money ultimately goes towards income (companies, or employees) at the auto manufacturers, dealers, and part suppliers. Assuming a 25% average tax rate, the US government will get roughly $1.5 billion right back. And people complain.

What other program that you know of spends government money, gets double the return, and then the government gets a good chunk of that money right back?

First off the focus sells for about 14-16K. The escape is a little closer to 25K. But the govt didnt double its return at all. The govt paid 4500 per car. Did it recieve 9000 in taxes back on each purchase?

And where are you getting this mythical 25% tax return? Are the car companies magically turning a profit or something?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

all the automakers are owned by people all around the world

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Mean MrMustard

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

It's already over, demand will now return to normal and production will decrease to previous levels.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment doubled its return and people complain.

Hmmm... did the people pay in cash? I don't think so. I doubt the average person that took advantage of this had $20,500 lying around waiting to be spent. This means they financed they're purchase. This *might* be okay with Ford, GM, etc., but ultimately bad for the economy as it piles on more personal debt.

Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments?

Here's where your argument falls apart: lending standards are tougher now than 12 months ago. CARS program did not ease lending requirements; therefore, if someone couldnt afford a payment before (i.e. debt:income, delinquencies, etc) they wouldnt now. People who traded in clunkers werent somehow exempt from underwriting.

This was a great program all around IMO. It boosted consumer spending, everyone from junkyard owners to car truckers to sales people to dealership owners to state tax revenue coffers got paid.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: woodie1
Besides stealing future sales I wonder how many people will default on their loans. Time will tell.

No more than would have without the program.

 

[Craig234]

Just to highlight the point, the NUMMI plant, Toyota's only union plant in North America, mde the top seller, the Corolla - with award-winning quality and productivity.

The same plant that the anti-union ideologues are cheering to have closed, cheering the lowering of wages, worker protections and environmental protections.

It's funny how they'll say they want a clean environement, prosperity - but at the same time will cheer the actual measures that protect the environement and better wages.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Just to highlight the point, the NUMMI plant, Toyota's only union plant in North America, mde the top seller, the Corolla - with award-winning quality and productivity.

The same plant that the anti-union ideologues are cheering to have closed, cheering the lowering of wages, worker protections and environmental protections.

It's funny how they'll say they want a clean environement, prosperity - but at the same time will cheer the actual measures that protect the environement and better wages.

Another one of those disconnects that causes Reasonable people to scratch their heads.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Craig234
Just to highlight the point, the NUMMI plant, Toyota's only union plant in North America, mde the top seller, the Corolla - with award-winning quality and productivity.

The same plant that the anti-union ideologues are cheering to have closed, cheering the lowering of wages, worker protections and environmental protections.

It's funny how they'll say they want a clean environement, prosperity - but at the same time will cheer the actual measures that protect the environement and better wages.

Another one of those disconnects that causes Reasonable people to scratch their heads.

Thanks for understanding what I meant to say, when I wrote the opposite - that they'll cheer the *end of* the measures that protect those things.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Craig234
Just to highlight the point, the NUMMI plant, Toyota's only union plant in North America, mde the top seller, the Corolla - with award-winning quality and productivity.

The same plant that the anti-union ideologues are cheering to have closed, cheering the lowering of wages, worker protections and environmental protections.

It's funny how they'll say they want a clean environement, prosperity - but at the same time will cheer the actual measures that protect the environement and better wages.

Another one of those disconnects that causes Reasonable people to scratch their heads.

Thanks for understanding what I meant to say, when I wrote the opposite - that they'll cheer the *end of* the measures that protect those things.

I understood; however Im not convinced its because of unions these things are happening.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Given car purchases prior to the announcement of the C4C program, what would car sales have been anyway? How many people held off on purchases because there was several months worth of rumors that the program was going to be coming later in the year? How many people pushed their planned purchases ahead of schedule due to the program?

Until someone does that kind of analysis, don't jump for joy about the success of the program.

It was a successful program. God you can be such a tool.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Thats true. Hyundai has invested here heavily. And almost all the Corollas sold in North America are made either in Calif or Canada.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Thats true. Hyundai has invested here heavily. And almost all the Corollas sold in North America are made either in Calif or Canada.

Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen...just a few that have built new plants (or are building) in the US. Like I said, GM and Ford are investing money elsewhere, not here.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Not so. Toyota is not investing at all, they even completely stopped a plant they were trying to build in MS. They're all hurting.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Not so. Toyota is not investing at all, they even completely stopped a plant they were trying to build in MS. They're all hurting.

OK, so Toyota has slowed down...but the rest? Compare any of the others that I listed to the domestics and get back with me. The almighty profit bullshit is just that. If we don't get jobs and keep them, profits aren't going to matter one damn bit.

 

[MikeMike]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Not so. Toyota is not investing at all, they even completely stopped a plant they were trying to build in MS. They're all hurting.

OK, so Toyota has slowed down...but the rest? Compare any of the others that I listed to the domestics and get back with me. The almighty profit bullshit is just that. If we don't get jobs and keep them, profits aren't going to matter one damn bit.

GM is opening their new battery manufacturing facility...

The problem isnt that GM wont build new plants, the problem is that they have so many plants they dont have a reason to open new ones...

However, you are now seeing that General Motors Company is pretty much devoid of numerous "bad assets" which are now in the form of Motors Liquidation Company, and their plant level should be lower to where they now may actually need to build more plants in the nearer future if they regain market share.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

However, you are now seeing that General Motors Company is pretty much devoid of numerous "bad assets" which are now in the form of Motors Liquidation Company, and their plant level should be lower to where they now may actually need to build more plants in the nearer future if they regain market share.

That may be the case and it will be interesting to see where they build these. Ford, GM and Chrysler have built new factories in Mexico to supply North America while closing US factories down.

 

[moparacer]

"Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments? "

Auto Loan bubble! Yay!

And all you guys touting the "get us off foreign oil" and "clean and green" crap might want to dig up the statistics on just how many old cars are on American roads and subtract the CFC cars from it and tell me how much of a difference it made.

{According to the US Bureau of Transit Statistics for 2006 there are 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the US. Out of these roughly 251 million vehicles, 135,399,945 were classified as automobiles, while 99,124,775 were classified as "Other 2 axle, 4 tire vehicles," presumably SUVs and pick-up trucks. Yet another 6,649,337 were classified as vehicles with 2 axles and 6 tires and 2,169,670 were classified as "Truck, combination." There were approximately 6,686,147 motorcycles in the US in 2006.}

The Arabs are a shakin in their shoes now aint they!

And I though the air smell better the last few weeks! Hmmmmmm.....

LOL

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

BS. Toyota and the others are investing far more money in the US than the so called domestic brands. They (domestics) are building factories in other countries, not here. They (domestics) are closing them down here.

Not so. Toyota is not investing at all, they even completely stopped a plant they were trying to build in MS. They're all hurting.

OK, so Toyota has slowed down...but the rest? Compare any of the others that I listed to the domestics and get back with me. The almighty profit bullshit is just that. If we don't get jobs and keep them, profits aren't going to matter one damn bit.

GM is opening their new battery manufacturing facility...

The problem isnt that GM wont build new plants, the problem is that they have so many plants they dont have a reason to open new ones...

However, you are now seeing that General Motors Company is pretty much devoid of numerous "bad assets" which are now in the form of Motors Liquidation Company, and their plant level should be lower to where they now may actually need to build more plants in the nearer future if they regain market share.

GM is also launching a major Chinese brand...

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: moparacer
"Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments? "

Auto Loan bubble! Yay!

And all you guys touting the "get us off foreign oil" and "clean and green" crap might want to dig up the statistics on just how many old cars are on American roads and subtract the CFC cars from it and tell me how much of a difference it made.

{According to the US Bureau of Transit Statistics for 2006 there are 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the US. Out of these roughly 251 million vehicles, 135,399,945 were classified as automobiles, while 99,124,775 were classified as "Other 2 axle, 4 tire vehicles," presumably SUVs and pick-up trucks. Yet another 6,649,337 were classified as vehicles with 2 axles and 6 tires and 2,169,670 were classified as "Truck, combination." There were approximately 6,686,147 motorcycles in the US in 2006.}

The Arabs are a shakin in their shoes now aint they!

And I though the air smell better the last few weeks! Hmmmmmm.....

LOL

Strawman.