Cash for Clunkers Final Numbers

[marincounty]

The Department of Transportation released its final data on the cash for clunkers program on wednesday. Dealers reported sales of 690, 114 vehicles.
Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic and Toyota Camry are the three top sellers.

Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.
Text

TOP SELLERS

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Toyota Camry

4. Ford Focus front-wheel drive

5. Hyundai Elantra

6. Nissan Versa

7. Toyota Prius

8. Honda Accord

9. Honda Fit

10. Ford Escape front-wheel drive

TOP MANUFACTURERS OF NEW VEHICLES SOLD

1. Toyota, 19.4 percent of Cash for Clunkers sales

2. General Motors, 17.6 percent

3. Ford, 14.4 percent

4. Honda, 13 percent

5. Nissan, 8.7 percent

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment's expenditures resulted in double that amount going to American companies and people complain.

That $6B+ of American compay money ultimately goes towards income (companies, or employees) at the auto manufacturers, dealers, and part suppliers. Assuming a 25% average tax rate, the US government will get roughly $1.5 billion right back. And people complain.

What other program that you know of spends government money, gets double the return, and then the government gets a good chunk of that money right back?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment doubled its return and people complain.

That $6B+ of American compay money ultimately goes towards income (companies, or employees) at the auto manufacturers, dealers, and part suppliers. Assuming a 25% average tax rate, the US government will get roughly $1.5 billion right back. And people complain.

What other program that you know of spends government money, gets double the return, and then the government gets a good chunk of that money right back?

The Program had some Issues, but overall worked excellently to achieving its' Goals. Future attempts at such a Program is going to need to add controls that limit the amount of Cars/Week or similar criteria.

 

[PottedMeat]

How come the Fords are labeled FWD?

Other Info from the Article:

TOP STATES FOR SALES 1. California 2. Texas 3. New York 4. Florida 5. Illinois

TOP TRADE-INS

1. Ford Explorer four-wheel drive

2. Ford F-150 Pickup two-wheel drive

3. Jeep Grand Cherokee four-wheel drive

4. Ford Explorer two-wheel drive

5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan two-wheel drive

6. Jeep Cherokee four-wheel drive

7. Chevrolet Blazer four-wheel drive

8. Chevrolet C1500 pickup two-wheel drive

9. Ford F-150 pickup four-wheel drive

10. Ford Windstar front-wheel drive van

I'm in Texas and I've been seeing a lot of new Fords/Toyotas/Hondas, but especially many many many Mazda 3s.

 

[soccerballtux]

Good. Poor resale value is proof of poor worksmanship. People catch on, if it won't resell, there's probably a reason. GM/Ford were left in the dust.

Protectionism never helps. Claim otherwise, and history has already done the work to show you're wrong.

So I, for one, am glad the sales went to foreign automakers. This is how our standard of living improves-- the wasteful are weeded out and capital is freed for other more worthwhile endeavors (like buying a Toyota). Toyota and Honda wouldn't be having any sales problems if GM were dead.

By propping up GM (or limiting cash/clunkers to "American" cars) we'd be directly getting in the way of an economic recovery.

Not to mention GM's going to shut down all their plants and move them to Mexico anyhow. Toyota still does all the assembly in America.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Good. Poor resale value is proof of poor worksmanship. People catch on, if it won't resell, there's probably a reason. GM/Ford were left in the dust.

Protectionism never helps. Claim otherwise, and history has already done the work to show you're wrong.

So I, for one, am glad the sales went to foreign automakers. This is how our standard of living improves-- the wasteful are weeded out and capital is freed for other more worthwhile endeavors (like buying a Toyota). Toyota and Honda wouldn't be having any sales problems if GM were dead.

By propping up GM (or limiting cash/clunkers to "American" cars) we'd be directly getting in the way of an economic recovery.

Not to mention GM's going to shut down all their plants and move them to Mexico anyhow. Toyota still does all the assembly in America.

Poor resale value is not proof of poor workmanship necessarily. It can be the result of bad styling, too high an initial price, or overall 'trends' based on past models. GM is still suffering from the Malaise Era build quality issues, but only because the stigma persists from that time. GM has vastly improved their build quality, but Toyota's has gone down considerably compared to when they dominated in the 90s. Yet guess who has the higher resale value for cars made in the past 3-4 years... The correlation is not a strong one when you look at it on a per-model or per-year basis.

I respectfully disagree with propping up GM as being to the detriment of our economy. Allowing GM to fail would have put a lot of people out of work. Forfeiting our car manufacturing to foreign-based companies such as Honda/Toyota would be economic suicide. Yes I know they do make cars/trucks here, but the loss of a company like GM would never be fully replaced by the likes of Honda/Toyota/Hyundai. I will however cede your point that GM, if left to its own devices would outsource/move its production to Mexico or elsewhere. If we do enact protectionist measures in our own car industries (like many other nations do), then it should be based on where the manufacturing is done and parts sourced. This could be the subject for a whole other thread though...

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

It's already over, demand will now return to normal and production will decrease to previous levels.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment doubled its return and people complain.

Hmmm... did the people pay in cash? I don't think so. I doubt the average person that took advantage of this had $20,500 lying around waiting to be spent. This means they financed they're purchase. This *might* be okay with Ford, GM, etc., but ultimately bad for the economy as it piles on more personal debt.

Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Mean MrMustard

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: marincounty
Hey, I was against this program, because it only allowed people with cars that get lousy mileage to get the credits. Looks like most of the stimulus went to foreign automakers.
On the bright side, it did get a lot of unsafe older cars off the road.

It was a small, underfunded program. They had to limit sales somehow. This will help reduce our use of foreign oil, help polute less, stimulated our struggling economy, and of course people still complain.

It's already over, demand will now return to normal and production will decrease to previous levels.

Think about it. The goverment spent $3 billion. If GM got 17.6% of 690,114 cars, then they sold 121,460 cars. Assuming an average sale price of $25,000, then GM got $3.04 billion dollars from a $3 billion goverment investment. Ford got another $2.48 billion. Crysler wasn't on the list, but it'll be another good chunk of cash to an American company. Right there, the goverment doubled its return and people complain.

Hmmm... did the people pay in cash? I don't think so. I doubt the average person that took advantage of this had $20,500 lying around waiting to be spent. This means they financed they're purchase. This *might* be okay with Ford, GM, etc., but ultimately bad for the economy as it piles on more personal debt.

Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments?

Not everyone has Debts piled sky high and/or can't Purchase a Vehicle. However, many who can Afford a Vehicle were nervous given the Economic Conditions.

 

[BoberFett]

Given car purchases prior to the announcement of the C4C program, what would car sales have been anyway? How many people held off on purchases because there was several months worth of rumors that the program was going to be coming later in the year? How many people pushed their planned purchases ahead of schedule due to the program?

Until someone does that kind of analysis, don't jump for joy about the success of the program.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Mean MrMustard
It's already over, demand will now return to normal and production will decrease to previous levels.

Please notice that I did put it in past tense. You are correct that this was a one time jolt. Whether it was enough of a jolt to restart the heart is unknown.

Hmmm... did the people pay in cash? I don't think so. I doubt the average person that took advantage of this had $20,500 lying around waiting to be spent. This means they financed they're purchase. This *might* be okay with Ford, GM, etc., but ultimately bad for the economy as it piles on more personal debt.

Basically, this program created a situation much like a mini housing crisis.
What happens when people can't make they're payments?

Lets follow up your logic. Personal debt is bad. Therefore people shouldn't spend. Therefore the economy tanks. Therefore, everyone loses their jobs. Therefore we ALL have nothing. You can't look at it that way.

You are correct that we don't need to overheat the spending. We don't want another irrational 2000s housing boom, another 1990s stock boom, or another 1630s tulip boom. However, this small uptick in car sales is far from being an irrational boom. Most of these buyers were people who could afford cars but who were too stingy to buy (for various reasons).

My parents were one of the 690,114. They are decidedly upper middle class with plenty of money to buy a car. But they are always stingy and refused to replace their ailing minivan. Heck, it didn't even have an exhaust system or a reliable transmission. But they kept patching things onto it hoping to get a few more months out of it. They took the $4500 and ran. Sure, there are examples where people couldn't afford the car, but just like the millions of other people who have bought cars, most will be able to make the payments.

 

[woodie1]

Besides stealing future sales I wonder how many people will default on their loans. Time will tell.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PottedMeat
How come the Fords are labeled FWD?

they're probably breaking it down by model and driveline because different drivelines will get different MPG. we'll have to wait for edmunds or someone to just break it down by model.

I'm in Texas and I've been seeing a lot of new Fords/Toyotas/Hondas, but especially many many many Mazda 3s.

the new mazda3 looks much better in person than pictures. i saw the first ones off the truck in houston (destined for the auto show, not for sale unfortunately) parked right next to an RX8 and the design just clicked.

 

[Phokus]

Lol the mazda 3 has a face

http://www.canadiandriver.com/...mazda3_gw_004-2754.jpg

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Lol the mazda 3 has a face

http://www.canadiandriver.com/...mazda3_gw_004-2754.jpg

red is probably the worst color for that. white looks better, so do darker colors such as blue and gunmetal.

 

[b0mbrman]

For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

1. Toyota Corolla
NUMMI, Fremont, CA (N.B. future Corollas will be made in Ontario, Canada) :thumbsup:

2. Honda Civic
Honda of America Mfg., Inc., East Liberty, OH :thumbsup:

3. Toyota Camry
Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky, Georgetown, KY :thumbsup:

4. Ford Focus :thumbsup:

5. Hyundai Elantra (shipped here from Korea)

6. Nissan Versa (Hecho en México)
Nissan Mexicana, Aguascalientes, Mexico

7. Toyota Prius (shipped here from Japan)

8. Honda Accord
Honda of America Mfg., Inc., Marysville, OH :thumbsup:

9. Honda Fit (shipped here from Japan)

10. Ford Escape :thumbsup:

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: woodie1
Besides stealing future sales I wonder how many people will default on their loans. Time will tell.

Are people more likely to default on a $15,000 loan or a $19,500 loan?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

To bad we can't see the numbers of cars/trucks GM/Ford sold that are cross branded and see how the numbers really line up. IE, Chevy Silverado+GMC Sierra. I know a lot of trucks got traded in, but a lot of trucks also got purchased. The Ford dealer by my house is sitting on 50+ beat up trucks that were traded in for new trucks.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: spidey07
That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

The income/money of hundreds of thousands of American workers doesn't matter?

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

Um, the profit can go to whoever, what we need is for the majority of the money (labor costs) to stay here. We need factories and jobs.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: spidey07
That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

The income/money of hundreds of thousands of American workers doesn't matter?

This is spidey07 we're talking about.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: spidey07
That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

The income/money of hundreds of thousands of American workers doesn't matter?

To most people Buy American means American companies with American labor.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
For what it's worth, six of the top ten vehicles were made in the U.S. and a seventh was made somewhere else in North America.

That doesn't matter. The profit/money is still leaving the country. Buy American.

Um, the profit can go to whoever, what we need is for the majority of the money (labor costs) to stay here. We need factories and jobs.

Psssh. I only care about stimulating the executive board.

 

[MikeMike]

history 101... a few years ago some now liquidated company ran some program in order to clear out inventory by offering great deals to anyone... It was a huge success, they sold an insane amount of vehicles during this program, and cleared out the unsold inventory that were piling up on dealer lots...

history 102... this company fell hard the following months because they had pulled demand forward, not created new demand

there is no way that this will NOT do the exact same thing.

 

[Patranus]

The question is, how many of the auto dealerships have been repaid. Under law they are required to get repaid in 10 days. There have been news stories where dealerships have been owed over a million dollars and have been waiting more than 20 days. That is a large chunk of change to float to the government. How is a dealership going to pay its bills?