Case Agaisnt Blackwater Dropped

[Hacp]

They committed the crime in Iraq, killed Iraqi civilians, why aren't they tried in iraq? How much government money was wasted preparing for this case in the american courts?

 

[Patranus]

If murder was committed in Iraq, any murder chargest should be brought against them in Iraq.

This has nothing to do with the government of the United States.

 

[Craig234]

The issue here is a more powerful nation denying justice to a weaker. With an occupation or similar arrangement, there's always the temptation for the stronger nation to put itself above the law.

Naturally, the weaker nation wants justice, wants protection from lawlessness. Remember the Okinawa situation with crimes such as US miiltary raping a 12 year old girl that outraged the people.

At first the military tried to minimize it, but it exploded and now they're looking at relocating much of the base (to a US territory who is pretty dubious about receiving them but have no rights to have a say).

In another situation, US pilots who had old maps and flew into a ski cable killing a group of people also were 'tried' by the US and given a much more lenient punishment than Italy was pleased with.

Blackwater has operated in the past with no legal accountability - the US put in the Iraqi governing rules that they had immunity from any Iraqi law, and they were considered off-limiits to the US legal system too.

The fact they were prosecuted at all is an improvement. But IMO it's still a problem that the Iraqis' request to try them was denied.

I have some sympathy for not letting the Iraqi legal sysem try them for a period when the legal system was not functional early in the war, but that has to be fixed quickly - we're long past that.

I wonder if double jeopardy would apply to this situation as far as turning them over to the Iraqis now.

This a despicable situation, treating Iraqis as not deserving of justice, their lives not important is the message sent. Imagine our outrage if the situation were the other direction.

At the least, some serious discipline seems in order for those who screwed this up. Not doing that would reinforce the suspicion that it was intentional.

I'd like to see the men tried in Iraq if possible, and for that to be the standard process.

I do not fault the judge for upholding the law, if they were promised immunity. The error was that priomise, not the judge.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If murder was committed in Iraq, any murder chargest should be brought against them in Iraq.

This has nothing to do with the government of the United States.

I agree in principle, but the US would need to allow them to be extradited, or it's "let them eat cake" justice. If we insist on protecting them from Iraqi justice, then we'd better get it right.

 

[ProfJohn]

Here is yet another news story about this incident.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/us/01blackwater.html?hp

Just a snip that explains why they were tried in a US court.

The guards could not be prosecuted under Iraqi law because of an immunity agreement that had been signed by the Coalition Provisional Authority, the governing authority installed by the United States after the invasion of Iraq. But American prosecutors knew from the beginning that they were facing a difficult task in bringing the case. Complications included the applicability of federal statutes to the guards because they were working overseas at the time for the State Department, and the significant problem stemming from statements the guards gave shortly after the shootings.

The guards had been told by State Department investigators that they could be fired if they did not talk about the case, but that whatever they said would not be used against them in any criminal proceeding.

Nevertheless, Judge Urbina found that “in their zeal to bring charges,” investigators and prosecutors had extensively used those statements, disregarding “the warning of experienced, senior prosecutors” that “the course of action threatened the viability of prosecution.”

“The explanations offered by the prosecutors and investigators in an attempt to justify their actions and persuade the court that they did not use the defendants’ compelled testimony were all too often contradictory, unbelievable and lacking in credibility,” Judge Urbina wrote.

 

[ProfJohn]

If anyone wishes to read the judges opinion it is here:
http://documents.nytimes.com/memorandum-of-dismissal-of-charges-against-blackwater-guards#p=1

The first page explains the State Department screw up

They contend that in the course of this prosecution, the government violated their constitutional rights by utilizing statements they made to Department of State investigators, which were compelled under a threat of job loss. The government has acknowledged that many of these statements qualify as compelled statements under Garrity v. New Jersey, 385 U.S. 493 (1967), which held that the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination bars the government from using statements compelled under a threat of job loss in a subsequent criminal prosecution.

 

[Patranus]

I agree in principle, but the US would need to allow them to be extradited, or it's "let them eat cake" justice. If we insist on protecting them from Iraqi justice, then we'd better get it right.

The point is that the US has no business bringing charges in the first place. If Iraq chooses to press charges than let the extradition issue be address. The US government is trying to reinvent the system.

 

[ProfJohn]

The issue here is a more powerful nation denying justice to a weaker.

Are you suggesting that in order to provide justice to Iraq that we should ignore our own laws and legal system??

 

[Craig234]

Are you suggesting that in order to provide justice to Iraq that we should ignore our own laws and legal system??

Don't be an idiot.

As I said, the reason they couldn't be tried in Iraq is because WE decided to put in the governing rules that they are immune from Iraqi law. It doesn't 'violate our laws' to not do that.

And you did not read, apparently, where I said I SUPPORT the judge upholding the law in dismissing the charges if it happened as he said, with their having immunity.

Your response is a nonsense attack misrepresenting what is in my post.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The guards could not be prosecuted under Iraqi law because of an immunity agreement that had been signed by the Coalition Provisional Authority, the governing authority installed by the United States after the invasion of Iraq.

So we put in a puppet government, then made it so "their" law prohibits prosecution of criminal acts. They can literally get away with murder.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Are you suggesting that in order to provide justice to Iraq that we should ignore our own laws and legal system??

Think of it this way. Germany invades Poland, who then installs their own government. Then Germany makes their government in Poland write a law protecting the Nazis from prosecution for any crimes they commit.

It's just as "legal", and just as "right".

Would you be satisfied with this?

 

[Craig234]

So we put in a puppet government, then made it so "their" law prohibits prosecution of criminal acts. They can literally get away with murder.

That wasn't even a 'puppet' govvernment, it was an occupation government, OUR GUY, like a Caesar.

As I said, it might be defensible for a brief period when their system isn't functioning, but that's long over.

Ther emight even ben some room for us to have a mechanism for protecting the forces from abusive prosecution - that's just the nature of a 'superior' power putting itself above the law for some things in an occupation situation to limit its exposure to the occupied - but it should not trash justice, and this is a strong case of where the people deserve to be tried in Iraq IMO.

That injustice I say is natural above - that's part of why not to have occupations go on any longer than needed, because they are inherently offensive and contain injustices.

We wouldn't let a neighboring city's police force come into our city with immunity for wrongdoing, much less the US military patrol our streets with immunity, much less a foreign power's private contractors.

 

[al981]

spreading democracy by the barrel of a gun. working as intended.

 

[manowar821]

Damn, we should just launder some money to blackwater so they can go super-sized, then use them as the sole military force of this country. That way, we could get away with anything!

 

[fskimospy]

And you wonder why those of us on the right don't want our terrorist suspects brought into the civilian criminal justice system.

I can just imagine some judge throwing out the case against the 9-11 mastermind because he was kept in a cold cell for a few days and was not allowed to talk to a lawyer.

Do you know how trials work? There's absolutely no way that would happen.

I also like your fabulous reasoning. 'See why the right doesn't want to give people trials? In trials sometimes people are found innocent.'

 

[Craig234]

Damn, we should just launder some money to blackwater so they can go super-sized, then use them as the sole military force of this country. That way, we could get away with anything!

Considering the privatized forces have already had more people in the country than the military... you say that like it hasn't happened.

 

[fskimospy]

The point is that the US has no business bringing charges in the first place. If Iraq chooses to press charges than let the extradition issue be address. The US government is trying to reinvent the system.

Are you attempting to say that US government contractors while in the performance of their duties that we are paying them for should not be subject to US law if those duties take place outside the US?

 

[sandorski]

The Moral Authority the US had after the end of the Cold War has pretty much been spent in the last Decade. Not just in the area of War/Diplomacy, but also in the area of Economics. If sanity can not be restored by the US on these subjects, the Decline of the US in the World is all but guaranteed to accelerate until a "Fall" occurs.

"Fall"- Not an End to the Nation, but an End to that Nation's position of dominance and all the advantages such a position brings.

 

[StageLeft]

Good, it was in conflict with the tenets of a private military corporation anyway its mission to be highly paid and do the dirty work that others can plausibly deny. If they cannot open fire on civilians without worrying about prosecution what point do they serve? Do you really think this guy should be worried about proper conduct?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/27/blackwater_logo_070919_main.jpg

 

[fallout man]

Good, it was in conflict with the tenets of a private military corporation anyway its mission to be highly paid and do the dirty work that others can plausibly deny. If they cannot open fire on civilians without worrying about prosecution what point do they serve? Do you really think this guy should be worried about proper conduct?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/27/blackwater_logo_070919_main.jpg

Seriously.

It's every Red-White-and-Blue-blooded American's right to indiscriminately light up some towel-heads at an intersection (that's cool). It's not like these righteous bros blew themselves up in an Israeli cafe or anything (that's bad) AM I RITE?!

 

[Zebo]

They committed the crime in Iraq, killed Iraqi civilians, why aren't they tried in iraq? How much government money was wasted preparing for this case in the american courts?

Clueless. Talk about kangaroo courts. Infidels can not testify. Woman testimony counts 1/2.

Even Human Rights Watch has sad that:

“ The CCCI is the country’s flagship criminal justice institution. Yet it is an institution that is seriously failing to meet international standards of due process and fair trials. Defendants often endure long periods of pretrial detention without judicial review, and are not able to pursue a meaningful defense or challenge evidence against them. Abuse in detention, typically with the aim of extracting confessions, appears common, thus tainting court proceedings in those cases."

And you want to try Americans there? Fuck that. Not to mention the issue of occupied trying occupier and subsidiary elements that brings in.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Good and bad replies here. Whats amazing to me is that so many cling to the lies . Who in their right mined would believe this outcome would be any differant than what has occurred.

Its my time know . I tell you this for a sign , The winds of time shall blow feverishly on the sands of heat and uncover time past .

Wake up ,Open your eyes to the trueth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPzXCz-0cM8

 

[Hacp]

Clueless. Talk about kangaroo courts. Infidels can not testify. Woman testimony counts 1/2.

Even Human Rights Watch has sad that:

“ The CCCI is the country’s flagship criminal justice institution. Yet it is an institution that is seriously failing to meet international standards of due process and fair trials. Defendants often endure long periods of pretrial detention without judicial review, and are not able to pursue a meaningful defense or challenge evidence against them. Abuse in detention, typically with the aim of extracting confessions, appears common, thus tainting court proceedings in those cases."

And you want to try Americans there? Fuck that. Not to mention the issue of occupied trying occupier and subsidiary elements that brings in.

Thats the risk they take. From what I heard, they made good money, way more than the average soldier makes.

Blackwater mercs making more than petraeus.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/blackwater_mercs_make_more_than_petraeus/

 

[dahunan]

Just wonderful.. these MERCENARIES need to be beheaded and burned by Iraqis...

These worthless fucks think it is OK to just randomly MURDER brown ppl for fun.. I would put a bullet in them (blackwater mercs) myself and have a clean conscience

 

[Genx87]

Just wonderful.. these MERCENARIES need to be beheaded and burned by Iraqis...

These worthless fucks think it is OK to just randomly MURDER brown ppl for fun.. I would put a bullet in them (blackwater mercs) myself and have a clean conscience

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