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cars vs public transit

U

Ultima

Platinum Member
Cars are a wasteful use of space and travel by car is one of the least efficient ways to travel. It's not a very safe way to travel, either. But what are the alternatives? They're not usually all that great; they usually serve a limited area or are undesirable. Buses are often cramped and slow, and you must conform to their schedule. Rails are much faster and cleaner but serve a small area close to the rails. Cities want to reduce congestion, but people don't want to get out of their cars.

Here in Montreal public transit is pretty good in the downtown and surrounding areas, but turns to crap the farther away from the center you get. I used to work at this warehouse in the west island and it'd take me nearly 2 hours (including a 15-min walk over a highway overpass.). Cost? I could buy unlimited monthly passes for $50 CDN, so the cost per trip (say 42/month?) was around $1.19 CDN. Regular passes were $2.00 CDN at the time.

According to Mapquest the same trip is around 25 minutes and just about 12 miles. If I had a used car for $3000 and used it for 2 years, that works around to $4 per trip (actually cheaper since I'm sure I'd use the car for other stuff, too). So say $3 per trip. Since it gets me there 3x faster, I say its worth the cost. If I had a more expensive car, I'd keep it longer so that doesn't make a diff.

If cities want congestion to end, they have to make more attractive public transport available. Those PRT systems sound cool in theory but are probably quite expensive to build (then again, so was the road system). Automated highways seem like they'll just increase traffic (in the long run, congestion returns) (as would the alternative of doubling highway lanes).

Ah.. let's face it, we're screwed either way 😉🙁
 
I say sprawl is the main cause of all the problems. If the density of cities were increasing and they were being revitalized public transport would really be better. Also we should get kids used to riding the subways/buses early on. I know I rarely did and I think thats one reason I prefer a car today.

 
Uncontrolled sprawl should definately be dealt with, but I don't think low-density housing will ever go away. Which would you rather live in: A decent house with a pool and backyard, quiet neighbourhood and parks nearby, or an apartment near downtown, lots of noise and not so much green space.

Hmm, not as many responses as I thought. Comeon people, you have opinions, post 'em 🙂
 
Also, you say if people got more used to subways that they wouldn't be as apprehensive about using them. Well, I've been using buses and subways for a few years now, and all I can say is that I'm totally sick of buses. They're so slow and you always have to wait in the cold for them. I don't mind the Metro , but it just doesn't have enough reach here to take you where you want to go. For many destinations if you don't have a car you have to pay a big time penalty. Some of my friends live off island (where I lived a few years back before I started going to college) where there is no public transit of any kind and your only options are to bike or walk. In the summer I would bike to their houses but in the winter I was screwed unless I could get a lift. Ever since I've started driving with my parents and grandma (got my learner's), I've gotten more weary of public transit. Maybe its a psychological thing, but so far I love driving.
 


<< I say sprawl is the main cause of all the problems. If the density of cities were increasing and they were being revitalized public transport would really be better. Also we should get kids used to riding the subways/buses early on. I know I rarely did and I think thats one reason I prefer a car today. >>


They better be safe first...
 
Similarly, a lot of times I notice a lot of poor people and criminal types using the subway and buses here in the piece of sh!t that is Cleveland, Oh.

I take the subway prob like 20 times a year I'd say, and I rarely feel comfortable on it. I know in other cities this is not the case, but here it certainly is almost solely used by those who can't afford cars, and some of those people I don't want to be around.
 
This is a hot topic in Dallas. TX spends less than all but one state on public transportation and highways, and we have very bad traffic problems (not to mention being shrouded in a dense cloud of smog). So we have DART buses, but the problem there is that the city and its suburbs are very spread out, and takes too many connections and time to get where you need to go. We have no subway system. But, DART has been operating a rail that connects FT. Worth through the mid-cities to Dallas. Problem is it only handles the southern parts of the metroplex, so I cannot use it ( I work in N. Dallas, live in southern part of mid-cities). My wife uses the rail every day to work and cuts off 30 minutes of travel time because obviously the train doesn't have to stop or contend with traffic. Damn I wish we had better public transportation here, I put on average 25k miles a year on my cars 🙁 And my wife gets a 6month pass with the rail for only $20, unlimited rides!
 
Public transportation is a joke and a huge waste of taxpayer money. Not one form pays for itself or will ever turn a profit. Many are on the verge of bankruptcy and are a bottomless pit for money. Amtrack is being privatized for this very reason. New light rail syatems are nothing but bragging rights....they don't run when the computers break down or in ice or heavy snow...POS! Transit workers are lazy union types that are hired based on their color or worse and not on their skills. They strike at the drop of a hat...where does that leave you?


 
hmm. Public transit isn't a joke, without it I'd have no way to get to college and where would that leave the 350,000 people that use it everyday? I wouldn't say its a waste of taxpayer money either, but that depends on the system. A rail system in some rural town or something would certainly be a waste 😉

I don't think the transit workers in my city have ever striked (thank god).
 


<< Public transportation is a joke and a huge waste of taxpayer money. Not one form pays for itself or will ever turn a profit. Many are on the verge of bankruptcy and are a bottomless pit for money. Amtrack is being privatized for this very reason. New light rail syatems are nothing but bragging rights....they don't run when the computers break down or in ice or heavy snow...POS! Transit workers are lazy union types that are hired based on their color or worse and not on their skills. They strike at the drop of a hat...where does that leave you? >>


Have you ever taken the Metro in Paris or Washington? The Subway in New York? The tube in London?
 
I live in the middle of a bunch of farms. If I took a bus, I'd need to take a taxi to the nearest bus stop. I intend to live farther away from the city when I get a house of my own. Preferably an old farmhouse on 60-70 acres of good ol' flat Midwestern farmland. Let a local farmer use the land (free of charge) so it's not going to waste. Maybe I'll get to the point where I'm proficient enough with iron that I'll be able to keep an old steam tractor in the barn too. Regardless, I'm not giving up my personal transportation. I enjoy driving too much. The freedom of having vast stretches of county roads ahead of you, it's an amazing feeling to just wander where-ever the road takes you.

ZV

EDIT: Turin39789's link is interesting, even though the "documentary" has quite obviously been made by a long-haired pinko with an axe to grind. Still, it only addresses the cities. As far as I'm concerned, you can keep the cities if you care about them so much. I'll stay out in the farmland and on the rural routes myself. No use for a city. Well, scratch that, cities are very good at keeping people out of the countryside, which is nice. Last thing I'd want is a bunch more people crowding out all that nice land.
 
Out of the 10 - 1 way trips between my house and my office I take the bus about 4-6 times each week.

The bus takes about 40 minutes to get from door to door, and costs at the most 1.50 each way.

If I drive it takes about 30 minutes door to door, and costs about 25 cents for gas ect..., and 3 dollars in parking ($6 total / day).

That is a lot of money saved over the course of a month, well worth the extra time which I can use to gather my thoughts, read, ect...

HOWEVER, I have seen transportation systems that are simply impratical to the point that NO ONE would ever use them, except for the very special case. Even here in Madison, a realtively small city, going from one side of town to the next can TAKE WAY TOO long on the bus. IMO, Bus systems only work well when the average communte is under 8 miles.
 
People want the ability to go from point a to point b when they want and don't want to have to trudge to a bus, rail or subway stop and stand around in the freezing cold, rain, or heat for 30 minutes. Also doing the weekly job of buying groceries for 4 is not something that a person wants to carry on the bus, subway, or rail.
Mind you public transit works for people who are say residents of NYC. They can take the subway or bus almost anywhere in the city, but should they need to do things like get groceries they have to call a cab.

In order to get public transit to work it won't truely resemble public transit anymore.
It would be a system where a person presses a button and a few seconds to a couple of minutes later a vehicle comes to pick them up. The vehicle then takes them to the main line and attaches to the main line until it gets to the person's destination. Then it detaches and takes them to their destination. They get out and the vehicle travels to it's next pickup or returns to the main line until called again.
My idea would be the main line would run on top of old highways and to make up for the time it took for the vehicles to get to the main line, the main line would travel at 250mph. Also the main line would charge the vehicles electric motor while the vehicle was on it.
The vehicles could drive along streets but it would work much better if the vehicles were capable of flight as getting the vehicle up to 250mph to dock to the main line is no easy chore.

Even this system would still not be perfect. During rush hour periods there may be a shortage of vehicles available and wait times for the vehicles could be substantial. Also seeing as the main line runs non-stop at 250mph each vehicle has to wait for the first available opening. During non rush hours this wouldn't be a problem but during rush hour a vehicle could wait quite a bit of time to dock.
I suppose both problems could be solved with a higher capacity mainline and more vehicles though.

 
Freejack2, nice idea, but you are forgetting one very important thing. People like me. I don't fly on airplanes. I could afford it, and I'm not afraid of it. I just hate (yes, "hate" is the right word) being a passenger. You can take my steering wheel away when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. Still, your solution seems to be the most practical (if not the most practicable) solution I have seen.

ZV
 
I took the commuter rail into work one summer, it cost $8 round trip and took over an hour, the trip in a car might take 40 minutes.
 
I can't see things staying like they are, simply because of pollution probs. I've seen articles about cities in Japan where the smog is a major health hazard. Something's gonna change so traffic and pollution get cut down, but the when and the how, I can't even guess at.
 
Having re-read my previous posts, I think I should make it clear that while I will fight tooth and nail to keep my personal transportation, I have nothing against that personal transportation being electric or (preferably) hydrogen fuel cell. As much as I love the sound of an Otto-cycle internal combustion engine, it's going to have to go sometime. Hopefully the fuel cell vehicles will be practical by that time because my trips are much too long for any electric that might be on the horizon. (250 miles is an easy day sometimes.) Plus, the hydrogen fuel cell prototypes have shown that they can be damn fast.

ZV
 
when: 20 years when fossile fuel use in cars becomes obsolete (hopefully)
how: networking of all cars for better commuting. There have been countless times I've been driving and the traffic goes from quick to slow to stop and go for no real reason at all. If cars can join an interstate network for example and the car goes into an autopilot mode we can increase speed and decrease following distance.

 
We've been living with a lame public transit system. The only reason they exist in our area is because of their tie to Dial-A-Ride. They never would have gotten voters to OK a .25% county tax hike without that tie in.

I propose that we take every dollar wasted on empty buses and use the money to subsidize rides for the elderly and handicapped. And I'd have private businesses do the driving! :frown:
 
I like to be in control of my own destiny, and so I would never be willing to give up my driving privilage.

I don't care how good your public transit system is where you live, nothing compares to driving where you want when you want without waiting on someone, even if it is mere minutes. I love to drive, and public transit sucks no matter how you look at it in my estimation.
 


<< when: 20 years when fossile fuel use in cars becomes obsolete (hopefully)
how: networking of all cars for better commuting. There have been countless times I've been driving and the traffic goes from quick to slow to stop and go for no real reason at all. If cars can join an interstate network for example and the car goes into an autopilot mode we can increase speed and decrease following distance. >>






I don't think this will help much. The problem, ultimately, is the 9am to 5pm work day. At these two times, the highway system(can you really blame it?) simply can not physically handle the traffic load. There are just too many cars/vehicles on the road. Other times, the system is perfect and can handle the traffic without any problem. The only solution, imo, would be a redispersing of more people out of the 9am-5pm work hour. An example would be to make the following hours all legitmately recognized business hours, 8am-4pm, 10am to 6pm, 11am to 7pm work hours, in addition to the 9-5. Making highways bigger wont solve todays traffic, they will still get jammed. Just my 2 cents.
 


<< Freejack2, nice idea, but you are forgetting one very important thing. People like me. I don't fly on airplanes. I could afford it, and I'm not afraid of it. I just hate (yes, "hate" is the right word) being a passenger. You can take my steering wheel away when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. Still, your solution seems to be the most practical (if not the most practicable) solution I have seen.

ZV >>



Yeah, it sounds like a PRT-system to me. That's what I voted for 🙂
 
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