Carry Concealed Weapons Revisited

Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
Well people, I know this is an issue that people are either FOR or AGAINST, with few in between. Passions run high on both sides, so lets keep this flame free. I myself have remained dubious about the wisdom of CCW laws, but being a scientist, I have deferred to "the research" by John Lott. In light of these articles, I suspect that we will be hearing a lot more about this topic.

Please feel free to share.

From the Capitol Times:

UW Stout professor sounds in with an editorial (this is where I started reading about this topic)

Brady Campaign on John Lott

Cliff Notes: The researcher who has provided a pillar of empirical evidence in favor of CCW has not faired well under academic scrutiny. Major question about the wisdom and support for CCW laws are raised.

Search terms: Lott, Rosh, guns, concealed, handguns
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
From all that I've ever read.......CCW laws (or lack thereof) have had NO significant effect on crime rates....for better or worse.
 

amok

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,342
0
0
What Ferocious said.

Funny you should mention this today though, as I just got mine renewed ;).
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
I dont believe in conceled carry laws, I don't need them! The 2nd Amendment is my permit!
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
I don't believe in speed limits, I get happy when I speed. Aren't I guaranteed the ability to pursue hapiness?

Can we get a moron filter around here?
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
I don't believe in speed limits, I get happy when I speed. Aren't I guaranteed the ability to pursue hapiness?

Can we get a moron filter around here?

You prove my argument! Why do I need a permit, when it's a guaranteed right, in the 2nd amendment?

 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't see anything about carrying concealed weapons in there. Anything beyond your right to own a gun (for the purpose of participating in a militia that serves the security of the state) is debatable, taxable, controllable and definable, and CCW sits quite nicely beyond that right.

Read up before you speak up. (Or at least think?)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
Originally posted by: konichiwa
I don't believe in speed limits, I get happy when I speed. Aren't I guaranteed the ability to pursue hapiness?

Can we get a moron filter around here?

i dunno, maybe we need an ad hominem filter?
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
0
0
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: konichiwa
I don't believe in speed limits, I get happy when I speed. Aren't I guaranteed the ability to pursue hapiness?

Can we get a moron filter around here?

i dunno, maybe we need an ad hominem filter?

perhaps ;)
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: Bigdude
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!

Well then I suppose your opinion supercedes that of academics, judges, lawyers, legislators and law enforcers? Please tell me exactly what "To keep and bear arms" means in your opinion, and how that translates to concealed carry permits?

Furthermore, please tell me how my analogy doesn't apply but yours does? Or perhaps to make it a bit more exaggerated and obvious: I enjoy killing people; it makes me happy. I am guaranteed the right to pursue happiness, so why should I not be allowed to kill people?

Your jump-to-conclusions, polarized, jingoistic and even quasi-fascist views are nothing less than sickening.
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,109
2,177
136
Originally posted by: Bigdude
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!

Bigdude dont try to understand something that you cannot comprehend. The 2nd admendment does not give you unconditional rights to own a gun.

 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: outriding
Originally posted by: Bigdude
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!

Bigdude dont try to understand something that you cannot comprehend. The 2nd admendment does not give you unconditional rights to own a gun.


Your right, to a extent. It says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It realy does that we have the right to be armed. Armed means military weapons. But it doesn't say that we are completely unregulated. For instance I beleive that felons should not be allowed to carry weapons.

In plenty of places it is common for people to be openly carring weapons. It's just part of life. Guns are used to protect yourself and when allowed to defend yourself crime suffers.

It is already illigal to murder someone. Hell, in my state the potential penalty is death. I don't think that adding a extra 2 or 3 years on their sentance for carring weapons is going to faze them much. I could imagine. "Hey, burglar, you can't rob me and rape my wife. It's not fair.. you have a gun! that's illigal!!" buglar: "OH, ya sorry almost forgot.. here I'll go outside and put it away then we can start over, ok?"

The only people that stop carrying guns after you make it illigal are law abiding people. Criminals aren't going to stop doing it, well, because they are criminals and realy don't care. After all it just makes there job easier to abuse un-armed people.




 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Bigdude
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!

Well then I suppose your opinion supercedes that of academics, judges, lawyers, legislators and law enforcers? Please tell me exactly what "To keep and bear arms" means in your opinion, and how that translates to concealed carry permits?

Furthermore, please tell me how my analogy doesn't apply but yours does? Or perhaps to make it a bit more exaggerated and obvious: I enjoy killing people; it makes me happy. I am guaranteed the right to pursue happiness, so why should I not be allowed to kill people?

Your jump-to-conclusions, polarized, jingoistic and even quasi-fascist views are nothing less than sickening.


I don't know, those people you think are so wonderfull have frequently to been proven more wrong then right. Just because they are in the governmetn or are academics doesn't make them any smarter then anyone else.


And what is fascist about wanting to protect your rights? Unless of course you think that freedom is a fascist ideal.

In fact fascists found that disarming the population was a usefull tool. Made it lots easier to ship them off in cattle cars. Gun control was one of the first peices of legislation that Hitler and his freinds passed. The Soviets also found disarming the population thru gun control was usefull. It would of been hard to ship those 15 million people or so to die in the siberian work camps if they had guns. Oh and Pol-Pot was also a strong advicate of gun control. I realy doubt that those that died in the killing feilds of cambodia were armed with AK's beforehand.

So think about what your saying before you insult people.


ANd if you think that the "right of the people" in
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

means that only police and military can have effective guns then the "right of the people" in:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

means that the government has the right to jail miscontents and protestors, and that only people in the media and are given liscences are allowed to say anything political.


Makes sense to me!
 

kaizersose

Golden Member
May 15, 2003
1,196
0
76
why is it that every amendment to the bill of rights refers to the personal rights of citizens except the second? i dont know how people can make the point that the second amendment refers to police and military only, it makes no sense.
 

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,109
2,177
136
Originally posted by: kaizersose
why is it that every amendment to the bill of rights refers to the personal rights of citizens except the second? i dont know how people can make the point that the second amendment refers to police and military only, it makes no sense.

because that is how the supreme court ruled on the subject.



Id. at 178. In Cases v. United States, 131 F. 2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied, 319 U.S. 770 (1943), the court, upholding a similar provision of the Federal Firearms Act, said: ''Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.'' See Lewis v. United States

Full Text
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
Originally posted by: kaizersose
why is it that every amendment to the bill of rights refers to the personal rights of citizens except the second? i dont know how people can make the point that the second amendment refers to police and military only, it makes no sense.

The reason is because the way the 2nd Admendment is worded in a way that is unique and that provides the REASON for the right, ie., being necessary to the security of a free state, opens the door for intrepretting and setting LIMITS.



 

Vadatajs

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2001
3,475
0
0
Originally posted by: Bigdude
To keep and bear arms, means what is says, anyone that trys to think otherwise is a traitor!

You need to revisit the stop the bullsh!t thread. All of your posts are little more than trolling for flames. You have nothing of value to contribute to any threads here in P&N, and you never have. If you don't like gun control, get out! Move to africa where there is no government, you can have all the guns you want (and use them too). America doesn't need people like you around.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Concealed carry does appear to have a negligible effect on crime. But possession of a gun in general has a dramatic effect on suicide (successful) rates.
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Concealed carry does appear to have a negligible effect on crime. But possession of a gun in general has a dramatic effect on suicide (successful) rates.

Ah, the links listed above, and those studies link through those sights say there is NOT any data supporting this belief. John Lott (the pro-CCW scientist/researcher extrodinnaire) is coming under very serious academic scrutiney for the way he has conducted his research.

EDIT: typo; omitted the word NOT :eek:
 

kaizersose

Golden Member
May 15, 2003
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: outriding
Originally posted by: kaizersose
why is it that every amendment to the bill of rights refers to the personal rights of citizens except the second? i dont know how people can make the point that the second amendment refers to police and military only, it makes no sense.

because that is how the supreme court ruled on the subject.



Id. at 178. In Cases v. United States, 131 F. 2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied, 319 U.S. 770 (1943), the court, upholding a similar provision of the Federal Firearms Act, said: ''Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.'' See Lewis v. United States

Full Text

"the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms"

key word. the firearms act in question required fbi background checks for the sale of any sawed-off weapon, machine gun or silencer. i think the enaction of "reasonable" laws such as those is within the right of government. they were not, however, eliminating the right to own firearms, as in the case in washington dc today.

in short, that supreme court decision did not say the second amendment did not apply to individuals, it simply said that the govt. has the right to limit certain weapons to non-criminals.

note that the law hindered no firearm sale to a law abiding citizen and also that the law was in repsonse to prohibition gang violence that had gripped the country with fear.

From the Brady Campaign
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,352
259
126
Concealed carry does appear to have a negligible effect on crime. But possession of a gun in general has a dramatic effect on suicide (successful) rates.
See "Gun Free" Japan and most of Europe, where suicide rates meet or exceed US rates.

The "Zimring-Cook Effect" has been discredited, at least the degree of effect Zimring and Cook found ("dramatic"). There is a measurable effect on suicide rates, its hardly "dramatic".

To be clear, the degree of crime deterrence/reduction found by Lott has also been discredited. There is a measurable effect on crime rates, its hardly as "dramatic" as Lott contends.

But raising the issue of suicides doesn't belong in a discussion about carrying concealed weapons, since one need not have a license to carry a concealed weapon in order to keep as many guns as one desires in their homes. Generally, there has been no evidence to suggest the adoption of concealed carry laws pursuades any significant number of non-gun owners to become gun owners. Its pretty much people who already own guns or are otherwise very inclined to own guns who are acquiring CWL.

An increase in handgun sales has been associated with CWL laws, but these are generally not people who are first time gun owners. They're generally gun owners whose rifles, shotguns, and target pistols aren't suitable for concealed carry.

And if there is no meaningful effect on crime rates negative or positive, and no meaningful effect on suicides or accidental shootings negative or positive, indeed many success stories documented of CWL holders not only defending themselves from violent felons but even rendering assistance to police officers who found themselves on the losing end of a confrontation with a violent felon at road-side, then there really is no sound or rational basis at all for opposing concealed carry.

Just irrational disdain for guns (and gun owners), or an ideological disdain for the private right of self-preservation and personal protection. Its hard to justify exorbitant police budgets (nexus for taxation) when citizens prove they're quite capable of protecting themselves.
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Concealed carry does appear to have a negligible effect on crime. But possession of a gun in general has a dramatic effect on suicide (successful) rates.
See "Gun Free" Japan and most of Europe, where suicide rates meet or exceed US rates.

The "Zimring-Cook Effect" has been discredited, at least the degree of effect Zimring and Cook found ("dramatic"). There is a measurable effect on suicide rates, its hardly "dramatic".

To be clear, the degree of crime deterrence/reduction found by Lott has also been discredited. There is a measurable effect on crime rates, its hardly as "dramatic" as Lott contends.

But raising the issue of suicides doesn't belong in a discussion about carrying concealed weapons, since one need not have a license to carry a concealed weapon in order to keep as many guns as one desires in their homes. Generally, there has been no evidence to suggest the adoption of concealed carry laws pursuades any significant number of non-gun owners to become gun owners. Its pretty much people who already own guns or are otherwise very inclined to own guns who are acquiring CWL.

An increase in handgun sales has been associated with CWL laws, but these are generally not people who are first time gun owners. They're generally gun owners whose rifles, shotguns, and target pistols aren't suitable for concealed carry.

And if there is no meaningful effect on crime rates negative or positive, and no meaningful effect on suicides or accidental shootings negative or positive, indeed many success stories documented of CWL holders not only defending themselves from violent felons but even rendering assistance to police officers who found themselves on the losing end of a confrontation with a violent felon at road-side, then there really is no sound or rational basis at all for opposing concealed carry.

Without scientific rigor, we KNOW nothing about success or failures.

Just irrational disdain for guns (and gun owners), or an ideological disdain for the private right of self-preservation and personal protection. Its hard to justify exorbitant police budgets (nexus for taxation) when citizens prove they're quite capable of protecting themselves.

If this was true then WHY whould we need police to begin with, or government for that matter. You assume that CCW will reduce police load, presumably because crime will be less prevalent. Yet you admit that the work done by Lott is flawed. You can't argue that CCW have no effect (see your P about no meaningful effect) AND argue that CCW have a beneficial effect.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,352
259
126
Without scientific rigor, we KNOW nothing about success or failures.
Scientific rigor of what success or failures?
If this was true then WHY whould we need police to begin with, or government for that matter. You assume that CCW will reduce police load, presumably because crime will be less prevalent. Yet you admit that the work done by Lott is flawed.
The work done by Lott is hardly flawed. In fact, the work of John Lott and David Mustard is so sound that it has caused a fundamental shift within the academic community. No longer is the debate among serious scholars over an 'increase' or 'decrease' in crime rates due to CCW. The debate is now over the degree or strength of the protective effect by deterrence (i.e. how much it decreases crime by deterrence).

Lott identified a 'range' of deterrent effect strength within a statistically credible confidence interval, ranging from nearly insignificant to substantial, depending upon how conservatively or liberally one wants to interpret the data. Instead of chosing a 'safe' median number or even the lower boundary, Lott chose the 'rosiest' picture. Conservatively interpreting the data still produces a net deterrent effect, but one that is negligible.

I'm perfectly willing to accept the lower boundary, because it subverts the position of CCW opponents just as well. In proving CCW opponents wrong, one need not show that CCW actually decreases crime in any meaningful way, simply proving that CCW doesn't increase crime goes just as far to those ends.
You can't argue that CCW have no effect (see your P about no meaningful effect) AND argue that CCW have a beneficial effect.
Sure you can, it will be my pleasure to educate you.

At the heart of the Statist mind is an ideological loathing of personal independence and self-reliance that does not admit of owing its very existance to the blessings of The Omnipotent State. You can't very well have a society utterly dependent upon the mercies of government if people get some crazy idea that they can do just as well or even better without the incessant if not unwelcome and onerous 'help' of the 'crusading uplifters' (see H.L. Mencken). You don't know you need 'help', but you do, because I said so - end of discussion.

When New York City enacted the Sullivan Law, one of the motivating factors was the fear by police that shop owners would 'take the law into their own hands' in response to being 'squeezed' by various groups for 'protection money'. You know: 'Unless pay us so much per week, we can't protect you from the bad things that we might do to you or your family.'

It was bad enough that shop owners were being squeezed by organized crime thugs, but to have highly corrupt police officers come behind them and say 'Unless you pay us so much per week...' was driving people nearly to the breaking point. Get the picture?

Some immigrant shop owners came to this country for 'liberty or death' and there were occassional shoot-outs between shop owners driven to the breaking point and organized crime thugs. This sets a baaaaad precedent, others might follow this example. You certainly cannot have people protecting themselves because it makes the police services look ineffective and incompetent.

So the answer is to crack-down on gun ownership instead of organized crime - natch - since the police were highly corrupted by organized crime, thus the Sullivan Law. Even though big city police departments are no longer as corrupted by organized crime, the effect on the public's perception of their police services caused by citizens dialing .357 instead of 911 is just as contemporary: it makes the police look ineffective. "Leave it to the professionals" police officials in big cities such as New York City often advise when publicly commenting on citizens defending themselves.

When people begin to perceive their police services as ineffective, they begin to ask pesky questions that Statists hate, such as 'Why in the hell am I paying all these taxes?' Statists hate that question more than anything. Getting the picture...yet?

The reason CCW has no meaningful effect on crime is because too few people choose to accept responsibility for their own safety and protection. Among CCW states, the percentage of the adult population who are permitted to carry a concealed weapon at any one time ranges around 2% ~ 3%. Too few to have a greater deterrent effect on crime rates, but definitely enough to detect whether or not these people are running around shooting-up their states.

Several states track arrests of their concealed weapons holders when they run afoul of the law, and without exception, concealed weapons permit holders as a group are among the most law-abiding of any identifiable group. When they do run afoul of the law, its more often not related to firearms. When it is related to firearms, its more often a technical violation such as unwittingly carrying a firearm into a prohibited area, failing to have required paperwork on their person when they are carrying, or forgetting to renew their license and carrying while no longer permitted, not a crime of intent or violence.