Are you all completely daft?
Reducing costs leads to
a) more money for investors (mostly americans)
b) more money saved for consumers (mostly americans)
These benefits far outweigh the losses of the few workers that were too inefficient to begin with. capitalist economic theory, no ?
all i have to say is this:
Cuttting 2000 jobs = $5.000.000 more to the executive pockets!
China supplying the electronic industry will result in: cheap, flakey, breakable, nonsence products!
why people come and dream to the USA, is because we are known not to settle for less, we demand top quality at reasonable prices. this is about to change if Asia takes over. you wont hear anymore of customer service, forget about quality of product.
that is why we should hold our noses and be happy with what we have, sure we could criticise all we want, but remember, the most hated and bastardus American company will always beat the best of the rest of the world, in c. service, and quality of product (for the most part)
just my 0.02
Cuttting 2000 jobs = $5.000.000 more to the executive pockets!
China supplying the electronic industry will result in: cheap, flakey, breakable, nonsence products!
why people come and dream to the USA, is because we are known not to settle for less, we demand top quality at reasonable prices. this is about to change if Asia takes over. you wont hear anymore of customer service, forget about quality of product.
that is why we should hold our noses and be happy with what we have, sure we could criticise all we want, but remember, the most hated and bastardus American company will always beat the best of the rest of the world, in c. service, and quality of product (for the most part)
just my 0.02
A sure way to ensure sloppy product and service is to create an atmos of instability and fear of being sacked at the drop of a golf ball. Profit driven myopia is a disease. Workers of the world unite, or have a nap or something.
Red Dawn
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- Jun 4, 2001
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Nah crappy Tech Support/Products is more than enough reason. Besides their Printers, I wouldn't even give an HP product a second thought. Now that they are going to be selling the iPod we get to have the much vaunted HP Tech support for that product.
I wonder if they will charge for Firmware upgrades like they do for their drivers?
It's not quite that simple. A loss of high paying jobs would mean there were fewer people able to buy other products. So every country that manufactures goods purchased by Americans including the US would be affected.
And it would also lead to lower tax revenue and higher spending by the government on unemployment benefits which would lead to higher federal debt. And you're assuming that these companies that export jobs would actually pass on their savings to the consumer which is debateable.
This phrase is always so fitting.
Indeed, things really never are very simple. Hearing a pretty logical (IMO) statement and then screaming boycott is just ridiculous.So there are jobs which are america's god given right? Which would those be, and why? This country isn't about getting things because we somehow are entitled to them, it's about working hard and earning them.
Auric also brought up some very good points.
I kind of see this as fighting the symptom instead of fighting the illness, just like we try to fight human nature by unsucessfully outlawing drugs.
The problem in this case is NOT the exportation of jobs, that's just the short-term issue; the symptom. What is the real problem that underlies this, and what can we do about it?
Put down your picket sign and put some thought into things.
They need to compete, there's nothing more to it, while Carly is hardly a person I admire, she's just telling the truth.
Much like Microsoft, they do alot of things I don't like, but I still don't blame them, they're a company, and they're out to make money, not please you or me.
Much like Microsoft, they do alot of things I don't like, but I still don't blame them, they're a company, and they're out to make money, not please you or me.
Well it's only natural for people to be protective of their jobs. It is their livelihood after all. What do you expect people to say, "Here take my job, I don't want it, I'd rather be unemployed"Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
This phrase is always so fitting.
So there are jobs which are america's god given right? Which would those be, and why? This country isn't about getting things because we somehow are entitled to them, it's about working hard and earning them.
Auric also brought up some very good points.
I kind of see this as fighting the symptom instead of fighting the illness, just like we try to fight human nature by unsucessfully outlawing drugs.
The problem in this case is NOT the exportation of jobs, that's just the short-term issue; the symptom. What is the real problem that underlies this, and what can we do about it?
Put down your picket sign and put some thought into things.
IMO, if a company doesn't have a lot of respect for it's employees then it probably doesn't have a lot of respect for it's customers and I personally would try to avoid doing business with a company like that.
I don't think so, but I'll throw your question of who's daft back at you. Reducing costs leads to:
a) more money for investors (mostly americans)
That's great, as long as that added income is not at the expense of American workers who can no longer find a job, pay their rent, feed and clothe themselves and their kids, let alone educate them to compete in the world. And then, there's this matter of the added cost to society of caring for the resulting hunger and homelessness among the newly empoverished.
Now, that is great societal engineering! :disgust:
b) more money saved for consumers (mostly Americans)
Uh huh. Sure. Right. The rich get rich and the poor get shafted, and there are far fewer rich controlling a far greater percentage of the local wealth. Those are the consumers who can save all that money buying shoddy HP and Compaq computers, and they can afford to be too stupid to know difference between a good machine and a pile of crap, as long as it lights up and shows a Windows logo when they turn it on.
OTOH, when it gets really FUBAR, and they get disgusted trying to work their way through 23 bad links on the poorly maintained site, and 17 layers of decision tree on the crappy tech support phone line, let alone understand the gibberish they get from all those off shore $2.50/hr parrots, reading great English text phrases they don't understand, they can afford to trash the crappy computer and buy another one that's just as bad, and they think their brand new shiny POS has solved the problem... until the next time. :disgust:
She said the US education system is to blame for the export of jobs. That's not the truth, there is no shortage of high skilled labor here and our universities are the best. If she were to have said the truth she would have said they can pay programmers in India and China half of what they would have to pay them here. That's the bottomline and there is nothing the US education system can do to counter that.
Have you even read the articles? Few? Inefficient? IBM recently announced it would be nearly 5000 highly paid programming jobs overseas. Do you think that move was made for any other reason that they can pay workers overseas alot less than what they have to pay people here? Maybe you should do a little more research before you make such simplistic conclusions from a much more complicated issue.
Well Americans are pretty much overweight, ungrateful, spoiled, lazy and overpaid in general
If I were CEO, I'd definitely hire people who work hard without complaints and for less. It's common economics and common sense.
If I were CEO, I'd definitely hire people who work hard without complaints and for less. It's common economics and common sense.
As others have said before, she's only telling the truth. Our economy became largely national when we had the technology to do so, railroads etc. Im sure that led to a lot of crying and whining at the time that local producers couldnt keep a stranglehold on the market because they were the only one around, because exporters came in and ruined it all. After im sure there was a major loss of jobs, things began to equalize, and it turned out to be a positive in the end. Now we get oranges in the winter from florida etc...
The same thing is now happening, but on a larger scale. Competition and greed is what america is founded on, and now we're reaping what we sow, although not as small pockets of americans, but as a country as a whole. The american and western standard of living is inordinately high. We sent our manufacturing jobs overseas, and sure a lot of people lost their jobs, but a lot of goods got cheaper at the same time. Again, the same thing is going to happen on a global scale.
Im sure our economy is going to take a major, MAJOR dip soon. Im thinking depression level. But consequently at the same time, the rest of the world is going to be coming up. Americans wont be able to afford SUVs anymore, but soon the developing nations will be able to afford econoboxes. An the inevitable consequence is that in time, the entire world economy will benefit from it. Sure we get great products nowdays with our american engineering teams, but imagine what becomes possible when the whole world is stock full of engineers? Progress and output will raise as a WHOLE, for EVERYBODY in the world.
How long this is going to take who knows, but its inevitable. Besides, Im sure im in the minority here, but Id like to see some major changes in america, and its going to be something like this thats going to force reform. A good deal of americans could use a lesson in what its like to live like the rest of the world, and you know what? We dont need SUVS! Americans will lose jobs, people wont be able to afford rent, and rent prices will come down. It will all even out in the end, and while it will suck and be a shock in the short term, it will be beneficial in the long run.
I hear a lot of accusations that these CEOs are short sighted, but its those who are in opposition to globalization that are short sighted. Yes, CEOs are overpaid. And theyre going to get a shock when THEIR jobs get exported overseas. As someone said before, americans are overweight, ungrateful, spoiled, lazy, and overpaid in general.
My only advice that I can give in riding out the storm is to buy lots and lots of stock. Instead of complaining about corporate greed, start being a part of the greedy corporation.
The same thing is now happening, but on a larger scale. Competition and greed is what america is founded on, and now we're reaping what we sow, although not as small pockets of americans, but as a country as a whole. The american and western standard of living is inordinately high. We sent our manufacturing jobs overseas, and sure a lot of people lost their jobs, but a lot of goods got cheaper at the same time. Again, the same thing is going to happen on a global scale.
Im sure our economy is going to take a major, MAJOR dip soon. Im thinking depression level. But consequently at the same time, the rest of the world is going to be coming up. Americans wont be able to afford SUVs anymore, but soon the developing nations will be able to afford econoboxes. An the inevitable consequence is that in time, the entire world economy will benefit from it. Sure we get great products nowdays with our american engineering teams, but imagine what becomes possible when the whole world is stock full of engineers? Progress and output will raise as a WHOLE, for EVERYBODY in the world.
How long this is going to take who knows, but its inevitable. Besides, Im sure im in the minority here, but Id like to see some major changes in america, and its going to be something like this thats going to force reform. A good deal of americans could use a lesson in what its like to live like the rest of the world, and you know what? We dont need SUVS! Americans will lose jobs, people wont be able to afford rent, and rent prices will come down. It will all even out in the end, and while it will suck and be a shock in the short term, it will be beneficial in the long run.
I hear a lot of accusations that these CEOs are short sighted, but its those who are in opposition to globalization that are short sighted. Yes, CEOs are overpaid. And theyre going to get a shock when THEIR jobs get exported overseas. As someone said before, americans are overweight, ungrateful, spoiled, lazy, and overpaid in general.
My only advice that I can give in riding out the storm is to buy lots and lots of stock. Instead of complaining about corporate greed, start being a part of the greedy corporation.
Indeed. But the difference is that relying overwhelmingly on imports causes a permanent trade imbalance which is effectively a drain on the wealth of the nation, nevermind the negative long-term impact from losing a manufacturing base and all the new technology that comes out of it. In the big picture, not only is the typical public company a pyramid scheme, but so are the national and world economic systems. It all depends on continual growth which depends on the next cheap labor pool as the previous one "elevates" itself to the status of mindless consumer zombies. So it is destined to get worse and will probably require a rather apocalyptic end before some other system can materialize.
America was not the imperial power it is now during its last depression. Lessons have since been learned on economic manipulation, but most importantly in regards to war. The otherwise unproductive manufacture of war materiel is now a pillar of the economy. Making war, even at the expense of more debt, can boost the economy. If that coincides with succesfully forcing economic concessions or otherwise securing natural resources from other nations, then all the better to prolong the system for awhile longer. The empire will not go down without a fight. The people demand fullfillment of the American Dream!
Well, if you want to foment revolution a sure way is to try taking away American's God-given right to horseless autocarriages. I think a few muckity-mucks of the corporate oligarchy will have a thing or two to say against it as well. Besides, everyone knows public transportation is for commie losers.
They could always join the new permanent wage-slave class, that is if they can pass for immigrants.
Fight the power from the inside, yaknowwhatimsayin? Just be careful you aren't assimilated.
hmmm i wonder if you guys heard that Dell moved the support for it's Latitute and Corporate customers back to the US, because of poor customer satisfaction.. so if people continue to voice their concerns about quality, and more importantly if the sales start to go down.. I am sure the other cos. will follow suit as well.
Well now. Whoever would have thought that spreading Capitalism around the world would ultimately mean watching our fellow citizens lose their jobs? No matter how some people spin it, it's hard to imagine that this trend is beneficial to our country. Well, at least our current gov't is doing its part to help us out by trying to grant citizenship to illegal aliens --- that we we can have our own expansive pool of low wage labor right here in the US! Cheers everyone! :beer:
Exactly. We're about to see american style capitalism on a worldwide level. Its kinda ironic how we complain that CEOs make all the money while the common man gets comparitively table scraps. America is the CEO moneymaker of the world, and we're hogging it all too. Cant have your cake and eat it too. Carly is absolutely 100% right. Dont get me wrong, I want to see americans succeed as much as everybody but we want all the advantages of globalization and are not ready to take the disadvantages.
If americans want to stay rich, they have to stay competitive. And in a global economy, for what we expect to get paid for our labor, is simply NOT competitive. American style capitalism doesnt care about nationality. It goes where the dollars are. Cutthroat competition makes that necessary.
But theoretically, there wont be a trade imbalance when they can afford to buy higher priced products (assuming we remain the primary manufacturer of them). The only way that is going to change is if they get higher paying jobs and a stronger economy, and thats what happens when our jobs get shipped overseas. You only have to pay an indian programmer 5000 dollars a year because thats how much it costs to live there. Rent doesnt cost over $1500 a month like it does here in the city. Everything is cheaper, and when our economy starts to slow down because its being redistributed over the world, such things will equalize. If a national economy is better for our nation, a global economy is better for our WORLD. Yes I am an american, and I truely believe that WE will be better off when EVERYONE is better off. This is going to be a transitional time, which means its going to be a rough time, and the average american will not be prepared for it. As far as cheap labor goes, either A) we get educated and learn to build and support machines to handle menial jobs (think about how many jobs the computer has made obsolete!) B) we dont get educated and get paid the market value of floor sweeping. You cant pick and choose when the free market and supply and demand will benefit you. Right now we (america/canada/europe/japan rich places etc) control the education. The labor market constantly shifts, and what is needed one day might not be needed the next. Its very likely that the world simply has too many damn programmers. As individuals and as a nation we need to adapt to these changes, not cry about them.
When wealth is spread more evenly around the world, there will be less cause and need for international war. Farming isnt quite the pillar of our economy anymore either. Im sure the farmers were complaining how it just isnt as good as it used to be too. The people sure do demand fufillment of the american dream, but its out of style. Come in with high expectations like that and youre bound to be dissapointed. Besides, if the american dream was created by our unique capitalism, the same idea on a worldwide scale = the world dream. Id like someone to explain to me why this isnt so, if it truely isnt, without resorting to how detrimental it will be to OUR economy and OUR economy alone.
Imagine the world is a group of people. One of them has a gun. The rest have nothing. The one with the gun runs the show. The rest live in fear, and must do the bidding of the guy with the gun, especially if he started waving it around. There's no alliance between the armed and the unarmed because it wouldnt benefit him. He's loving it. Things are great for him, because everyone is serving him. He'll also probably go on tirades about how he is the only one that deserves the gun, they should be grateful he's so lenient, and how his moral superiority gives him to right to "excercise his power" when he deems necessary. No one is stupid to argue with him. Now imagine the rest of the group learn to make swords. The rest of the group now has some sort of power (especially if they band together). Now the one with the gun has to keep one eye open and make sure that noone takes him out, and try and scare them all into not trying to attack. In a sense this is problematic for both parties. Neither can rest. The imbalance of power puts stress on the situation. Tension is everywhere. This is a VERY volatile system. If either side starts a war, there will be heavy losses for both sides. There could be one left standing if things go that bad. This is the apocalypse aluded to above. Now imagine that war doesnt happen, and the rest of the group finally invents the gun. Noone has the power, no one can command everyone else. Everyone will want to agree to a universal alliance because it is by far the most beneficial to everyone. One moron can decide to start shooting, but the rest of the group will shoot him. Everyone is at peace because theres no benefit to attacking anyone anymore. No one holds all the power, and everyone can sleep easy. Now think to yourself whats stronger, one gun and a couple of fists, or an army of guns? Not only is it beneficial to everyone in the system, but the power of the group as a whole is far stronger. Substitute strength of armament for strength of economy and that is what will happen.
Americans prefer democracy over monarchy, but still want to be the monarchs of the world. It is the strength of democratic and captalistic systems that give us the power to be the monarch. It will take care of itself, rest assured. But with wealth and power being distributed on a global scale, its going to happen globally. From a world view right now, the system is horrifically unbalanced. We're doing all of the taking and relatively little of the giving. And now technology is making it possible to equalize the situation. We can either hog it all and keep it from others, or we can share it with the rest of the world and work together. Instead of being the king of the world, perhaps we can become president of the world. Im all for equality and a good life for everyone, and that doesnt just mean american equality.
BD2003 and Auric, you guys rock.
I do often wonder about the comparison to the roman empire, and when exactly our empire will come tumbling down. Surely we can only keep up this pace for so long. Or maybe not, maybe before the empire falls apart, we'll be able to settle mars and mess it up too.
I do often wonder about the comparison to the roman empire, and when exactly our empire will come tumbling down. Surely we can only keep up this pace for so long. Or maybe not, maybe before the empire falls apart, we'll be able to settle mars and mess it up too.
Don't be so naive to believe that a new world economy will achieve balance. Just as there is little balance in our national economy, there will not be balance in world economies either. There will always be the haves and have nots. Quite frankly, a lot of other countries are simply licking their chops waiting for the US to finally collapse and fall on its a$$. They are not interested in balance, they are interested in the destruction of our economy. Ironically, our own greed is their biggest and most effective weapon. The exporting of jobs, runaway deficit spending, failure to protect our borders, corporate financial shenanigans, ---- the cumalitive impact of these trends have me worried for my children. While our economists continue to theorize and play political spin doctors, there will eventually be people rioting in the streets! I know that's a very negative view, but it's more realistic than pretending that these trends are somehow beneficial to us in the long run. To think the latter, you'd surely be overestimating the factors of social and political stability while US citizens watch their standard of living dramatically diminish.
Im sure it will never achieve perfect balance. Looking at things over a historical scale, it will always be fluctuating. There will always be haves and have nots, but think about what the "have nots" have nowadays? There are very few starving babies in america today. Poor people get better healthcare on medicaid than a lot of the american middle class.
Youre right, the rest of the world IS waiting for the US to collapse. If I was in one of those countries, I sure as hell would be too. You have to ask yourself why. Is it an irrational hatred? Are they just "jealous of our freedoms?" like bush and company would have you believe? *Puts on flame suit* We're the evil empire, and I think they are totally justified in believing so. Sure the average american is just a hard working, average joe who is worried about losing his home, but in contrast to an african mining worker, digging our gold for scraps, or the mexican migrant worker picking our oranges, he's a whiny bastard. Most can plead genuine ignorance, but thats part of the problem. Im as far from an activist as most people get, but Im well aware of the state of our world, and the gross imbalances. The have nots in our country are the haves compared to the a lot of the have nots of the world. Its the poor people who are fat in america.
No one can say when the benefits of globalization will really begin to show, possibly not even in our own lifetimes. Theres a good chance that america as we know it will no longer exist at that point, and maybe that is a good thing. This is far from a perfect country. Youre right, their probably will be people rioting in the streets here in america. Its already happening at the WTO meetings. But theyll be dancing in the streets everywhere else. Even though the super rich have the vast amount of the wealth in our country and world, in the US, the middle and lower classes are still well off.
Id say the comparison to the roman empire is pretty much as close as it gets. We're just about ready to collapse under our own weight. Our society is still tied down to 300 year old customs and laws that just arent good ideas any more. The right to bear arms was a great idea when only muskets were available and there was a possibility of invasion by the british, but not so good idea when criminals can easily conceal assault weapons that they could previously buy legally. Instead of nationwide healthcare for the sick, we have the racket we call health insurance, for the rich. Hands off capitalism is a great idea that works wonders for america when the wealth and business primarily stays in america, but with modern telecommunication, its not so hot for america by itself. We're a nation of people who would rather tell everyone to watch out for themselves rather than band together and make decisions for what is right for everyone. No one wants to pay taxes anymore because its "their money". Now that this is happening on a major corporate scale, its gonna come around to bite us in the ass.
This is going to be a sloooow process and im not convinced that America wont slowly adapt to the changing conditions. If we follow directly along this path, we're headed for doom. But in 1997, we were worried about Y2k. All the pundits were crying how at the rate we were fixing computers that theyd never be done in time. By the time it was an issue, it was taken care of. The necessary changes were made. Hopefully we can do the same with globalization, rather than crying how things "arent what they used to be". Theres a LOT we can do to benefit directly as a nation from the situation, but it isnt being done yet.
Perhaps you shoud read this book called "the dictionary", after which you will know that "efficient" means bang for buck. Obviously foreign labor provides a much better bang, or is more efficient.
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