Car starting troubles **Update: New battery seems to work **

[duragezic]

Last week I had posted about my car not starting since it was so ridiculously cold for so many days (as long as -15° F at night with wind chills of -30°). So after getting the frozen shut hood open a buddy gave me a jump and it started right up. I left it running when I went inside places so it was running for a total of 30 minutes or so. Then when I shut it off and started again, it fired right up as normal without issue. Then when I got home, turns out I didn't shut my door all the way (the latch is especially crappy in cold weather). So the interior lights were all on for 4 hours or so when I went to start it and the battery was completely toast.

So yesterday I finally got a jump from someone and it took a good 10 minutes being hooked up in order to start since the battery was completely dead. Left it running about an hour continously yesterday. Got in the car today and started it and it nearly fired right up but not as good as usual. Left the car running about 40 minutes continously.

Now, I went to try it about 30 minutes ago (it was still warm from using it an hour ago), NOTHING. The battery is completely dead again. I haven't tried getting a jump, but how the hell can the car start almost perfectly, run for 40 minutes, then try it an hour later and it is completely dead? To me that sounds like a bad alternator. The alternator was replaced before I got the car in around 2001. I didn't think it'd go to hell that quick. But why else would the battery lose so much charge while running for 40 minutes?

Granted, the battery is indeed old and on its way out, but still I can't see how it could start the car fine and run for all that time and then have like 0 charge an hour later. Also, since this has been happening, my cd player is always reset (clock to default, settings gone). So it's most likely electrical.

Any ideas? A alternator needing replacement would be BAD considering it would be $400+ and I am completely broke as it is.

 

[Black88GTA]

Car batteries don't like to be completely discharged often - this greatly shortens their lifespan. Add to this the fact that the battery is "old" and has been completely discharged at least twice recently (going by your post) and the temperature there is -15F at night...my money is on the battery being toast.

You can go to Autozone and they will charge the battery for free, and test it to see if it is bad...they also have a machine that tests your alternator for proper operation while it's still on the car. Of course, this assumes that the car can make it to AZ . Even if the car doesn't run, you can pull the alternator + battery yourself, and take them in..they can test the alt on a bench as well.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
Car batteries don't like to be completely discharged often - this greatly shortens their lifespan. Add to this the fact that the battery is "old" and has been completely discharged at least twice recently (going by your post) and the temperature there is -15F at night...my money is on the battery being toast.

You can go to Autozone and they will charge the battery for free, and test it to see if it is bad...they also have a machine that tests your alternator for proper operation while it's still on the car. Of course, this assumes that the car can make it to AZ . Even if the car doesn't run, you can pull the alternator + battery yourself, and take them in..they can test the alt on a bench as well.

Yep free testing is great.

 

[Severian]

Jump starting the car can fry the alternator, especially if done repeatedly : (

Of course, the battery could just be so far gone it can't take a charge from the alternator. Cold weather like this always lets you know which of these components is not up to snuff.

worst case scenario, the battery is too old for these subzero nights, and the alternator's been toasted by all the jump starting. If it turns out it is the alternator, I'd look for a local shop that remanufactures them. My local shop that specializes in this can turn around an alternator in less than an hour for $100 or less, usually, depending on the model of course.

 

[thomsbrain]

you have a dead battery, period. your alternator is fine or your car wouldn't be able to run with your dead battery.

any time your battery gets completely drained, its lifespan will be shortened. if that happens multiple times on an old battery, in the cold, you really can't expect it to still be usable. and it isn't. so there you go.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Severian
Jump starting the car can fry the alternator, especially if done repeatedly : (

Highly unlikely. Jump starting can only harm the car if it's hooked up incorrectly.

To the OP: You should NEVER depend on the alternator to recharge a battery. It's simply not designed for that purpose. It's a trickle charger that is designed to replenish only what is used to start the car. It is NOT designed to charge a dead battery. When you have a battery go dead, you need to charge it with a plug-in charger, preferably removed from the vehicle, overnight. I will almost guarantee that the problem is with your battery.

ZV

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
...my money is on the battery being toast.

:thumbsup:

 

[FoBoT]

how old is the battery? what is the date on the battery?

 

[Paperdoc]

Your old battery is the problem. Let me cover the points.

Generally, if you have a tough time starting and just make it, or maybe don't and have to get a boost from another car, this means your battery has been VERY drained. With a normal alternator recharging system working just fine, just letting it idle does VERY little charging. Your would have to be driving around for quite a while - half an hour minimum, better an hour - to do much re-charging. I don't think you have done that. From your description, your drained battery has had very little put back in before it is drained again.

A very weak battery CAN be drained more by having a simple interior light left on for several hours. Last fall my wife's battery (in good shape and fully charged) got drained almost dead because the trunk lid was ajar and its interior light on for about 5 to 7 days. Meanwhile, she was using it only for very short runs to work and back, so little recharging was happening.

As for the CD / clock being reset: these things will do a complete reset when they have no power available for a few seconds. Now, when you try starting until it just won't even turn over, the actual voltage delivered by the battery near the end is so low that the CD believes it has NO power supply and resets. That's all - no big electrical system problem there.

If you have any sort of voltmeter, you can do a good check on the alternator yourself. (Assuming, of course, that you can get your car to start!) First, you start with the car not running, and maybe after just sitting for a while. Connect the voltmeter to the two battery terminals and read it. A good battery will say about 12.5 volts this way (maybe a bit over 13), a weak one may be down around 11 or less. Now start the car. During the starting the voltage will drop a LOT. But once it starts and runs, watch the voltmeter right away. If the voltage rises almost immediately to at least one volt MORE than the first reading (say, 13.5 or higher if it was 12.5 at the beginning), then your alternator is doing its thing properly. If you rev the engine up it MIGHT raise the voltage a small amount, but not necessarily.

Jump starting does not harm the battery if it is done correctly. The problem always happens if the connections are done backwards, though! That can drain 2 batteries quickly, and maybe cause actual damage. It MAY cause other trouble, too. I had a buddy do that to my car once years ago, and it burned out the fuse between the alternator and the battery. (Actually, it was a "fusible link" that looked just like a plain normal heavy wire - I would never have suspected its function without the service book.) But of course, with that fuse burned out, I had an idiot light on the dash glowing at me and the battery was not being recharged! Had to replace it quickly.

Sometimes a reasonable-condition battery can be drained so badly by repeated heavy use that it can't recharge quickly enough with short drives. Just getting it fully charged up may get you back in the game. Some shops will charge the battery (take it in to them, and leave it for several hours), then test it for free. They can tell you whether the battery is good enough to hold a charge or not. Sometimes - I've had weak batteries reported as OK.

An alternator WILL recharge your battery if you are driving around and the alternator is running at some reasonable speed. But that does not happen with the engine just idling. At idle, the alternator output is just a little more than the car is consuming. But at street or highway speeds over longer times - say, an hour or more - an alternator will push a reasonable charge in. However, there's no doubt that an overnight charge with a charger rated to put out 10 to 20 amps max will do a lot more good than a half-hour drive. And several overnight charges is even better.

 

[duragezic]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies.

First, I didn't realize the alternator barely charged the battery. These past few days after I got the jump, a fair amount of the time it was left on was actually driving, but probably not enough. And with the battery drained so much, it may not take or get enough charge regardless. My roommate doesn't have his battery charger anymore though I may be able to find one elsewhere but with the battery old and drained so much this past week, I likely need a new one anyway.

The battery is from 2000 or 2001 I believe. Since I got the car in ~2002, it was only jumped a few times this past week and once last summer (damn door wasn't shut again) so those few times in the past 4-5 years shouldn't have been a problem.

There has been a lot of blueish corrosion around the positive terminal for the past few years. It hasn't interfered with the connection that I know of but even after cleaning it off it would come back. I suppose that meant a couple of years ago the battery was going bad. And my dad warned me before leaving in August that the battery was on its way out and I should just get a new one before it leaves me stranded (at least its parked at my house). It started up so good all these years I didn't wanna spend the $$ but obviously I should've seen it coming with this weather.

So I guess I'm a little more optimistic now and best case that it is just the battery. Unfortunately in this small town there is nothing like AutoZone here. I guess I will just get the "mid-range" ~$45 battery from Walmart. I figure the cheapest one might not have enough cold cranking amps, though I only need the car running without major repairs for another 2 years or so.

Further evidence for not the alternator is the first time I got the jump, it started as soon as it was connected, and ran fine for 30 minutes. Then after it was dead from the interior lights for a few hours, I got a jump again (this time took about 10 minutes of being connected) and it ran continously for over an hour. Then it started on its own today and ran continously for ~35 minutes, but an hour after being shut off the battery was completely gone. So actually that last part might indicate the alternator but not necessarily.

I actually checked the battery with the car off and on this past summer with a Fluke. It read exactly as you said it should (~12.4 V off, ~13.7 V on IIRC) so at that time I figured it was all OK. The papers with the car showed the alternator being replaced in ~2001 for over $400 (damn Mazda ) so I REALLY hope it is not the problem.

I could borrow a DMM from school, but since the car won't start again without a jump it'd be harder to test the on/off voltage if I need a jump everytime. So I'll just go ahead and get the battery since even if for some reason the problem was elsewhere, I'd need it anyway since it may not charge much given its age and complete draining of recent. Hopefully the damn thing is back to normal with the batt, but I can verify the alternator with a DMM.

Now, if only it would get up to even 20° and I'd be happy so I can put a battery in.

Again, thanks, I'll update once I get a new battery in.

 

[cavemanmoron]

Take the car to Parts America/Advance Auto, or Autozone
ask them to test the battery.

Originally posted by: duragezic
Thanks for all of the helpful replies.

First, I didn't realize the alternator barely charged the battery. These past few days after I got the jump, a fair amount of the time it was left on was actually driving, but probably not enough. And with the battery drained so much, it may not take or get enough charge regardless. My roommate doesn't have his battery charger anymore though I may be able to find one elsewhere but with the battery old and drained so much this past week, I likely need a new one anyway.

The battery is from 2000 or 2001 I believe. Since I got the car in ~2002, it was only jumped a few times this past week and once last summer (damn door wasn't shut again) so those few times in the past 4-5 years shouldn't have been a problem.

There has been a lot of blueish corrosion around the positive terminal for the past few years. It hasn't interfered with the connection that I know of but even after cleaning it off it would come back. I suppose that meant a couple of years ago the battery was going bad. And my dad warned me before leaving in August that the battery was on its way out and I should just get a new one before it leaves me stranded (at least its parked at my house). It started up so good all these years I didn't wanna spend the $$ but obviously I should've seen it coming with this weather.

So I guess I'm a little more optimistic now and best case that it is just the battery. Unfortunately in this small town there is nothing like AutoZone here. I guess I will just get the "mid-range" ~$45 battery from Walmart. I figure the cheapest one might not have enough cold cranking amps, though I only need the car running without major repairs for another 2 years or so.

I actually checked the battery with the car off and on this past summer with a Fluke. It read exactly as you said it should (~12.4 V off, ~13.7 V on IIRC) so at that time I figured it was all OK. The papers with the car showed the alternator being replaced in ~2001 for over $400 (damn Mazda ) so I REALLY hope it is not the problem.

I could borrow a DMM from school, but since the car won't start again without a jump it'd be harder to test the on/off voltage if I need a jump everytime. So I'll just go ahead and get the battery since even if for some reason the problem was elsewhere, I'd need it anyway since it may not charge much given its age and complete draining of recent. Hopefully the damn thing is back to normal with the batt, but I can verify the alternator with a DMM.

Now, if only it would get up to even 20° and I'd be happy so I can put a battery in.

Again, thanks, I'll update once I get a new battery in.

 

[amdskip]

One more thing, I hope you didn't just let you car sit there idling for 40 minutes because thats extremely hard on a motor. Anything more than a couple minutes and its extra wear and tear because your oil pressure is not raising so oil is not spreading throughout your motor like it should be.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: amdskip
One more thing, I hope you didn't just let you car sit there idling for 40 minutes because thats extremely hard on a motor. Anything more than a couple minutes and its extra wear and tear because your oil pressure is not raising so oil is not spreading throughout your motor like it should be.

Bull.

Unless something is wrong, idling is virtually zero strain on an engine. Oil pressure should be absolutely fine unless there is a malfunction (or the designer of the oil pump was a Special Olympics contestant). The real load is on the cooling system, but even that should be more than adequate as long as the fans are functioning.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
An alternator WILL recharge your battery if you are driving around and the alternator is running at some reasonable speed. But that does not happen with the engine just idling. At idle, the alternator output is just a little more than the car is consuming. But at street or highway speeds over longer times - say, an hour or more - an alternator will push a reasonable charge in. However, there's no doubt that an overnight charge with a charger rated to put out 10 to 20 amps max will do a lot more good than a half-hour drive. And several overnight charges is even better.

Will and should are very different things. Relying on the alternator for anything beyond topping off the battery to replenish what was spent to start the car is a bad choice. Always.

You should not charge a battery at 20 amps with a plug-in charger. Maximum is 10 amps and I would recommend 2 amps unless you absolutely, positively need the battery charged fast. Charging at 20 amps will cause some electrolyte "boil off". Even 10 amps will cause the battery to vent a little.

ZV

 

[ThePresence]

Listen to ZV. He knows his sh*t. :thumbsup:

 

[duragezic]

Alright, here's the update... it seems to be working for the most part:

Got a new battery from Walmart and put it in and it started up fine. Then when I turned it off and tried it 30 minutes later, the damn thing didn't do a thing! It was like the battery was completely drained again or not there. I opened the hood and tried to wiggle the cables connected to the terminals, but they were tightened anyway. In addition, a buddy used sandpaper and made sure the connection to the terminals was clean (certainly cleaner than it has been for years). Even though I wasn't able to really wiggle them at all, I tried starting again and it started fine. Since then it has started fine 2-3 more times. In addition, I borrowed a Fluke from school and checked the voltage:

While car was on and idling: 14.2 V
While car was off: 12.7 V

The voltage while the car was on and alternator running seems a little high, but this was the case when I measured it last summer as well. I'm not sure if the higher voltage from the alternator could lead to overcharging the battery and causing it to crack, but probably not. Afterall, 14.2 V is 5% from 13.5 V, so it's probably normal and within tolerance. This is what the alternator has been putting out for years too.

So anyway, I'm not sure what would cause it to not have a connection at all right after it just did. When it gets warmer I could examine the cables better and maybe see if they are just old and crappy. But they are tight on the terminals of the battery.