Car Registration renewal: Got hit with a Highway Use Fee because my car is too fuel efficient

[JEDI]

LOL, I’m only 43. And to think that I first found this place when I was 17 😮

Speaking of which, talked to Anand a few months back and had a video call with him and other media during the M3 MacBook Pro launch. My, how the time flies!

How is Mr Apple doing?

 

[NFS4]

NFS4:
last post Sep 29, 2017

Welcome back after 6yrs! 😱
Were you the ace reporter or was that someone else?

Yes, it was Ace Reporter when I worked for AnandTech/DailyTech. Then it became "No Lifer" 😛

But honestly, life hits you. Family, two kids, work. But honestly, I've spent most of my "forum" time over at VWVortex's The Car Lounge talking about cars 😀

How is Mr Apple doing?

He's doing great. He's coming up on 10 years at Apple (I can't believe it's been that long). And yes, he's still into fast cars. This reminds me: we're supposed to get together sometime this month when he flies back to NC for the holidays. I need to message him to set that up.

 

[JEDI]

He's doing great. He's coming up on 10 years at Apple (I can't believe it's been that long). And yes, he's still into fast cars.

you Still have that Mazda?
(Were you the one i mailed a $500 off coupon for a new Mazda?)

 

[NFS4]

you Still have that Mazda?
(Were you the one i mailed a $500 off coupon for a new Mazda?)

No, I don't have the Mazda anymore (I traded it in back in 2011 after five years). Yes, I was the one you mailed the coupon to!! 😀

We're an all-electric family now.

Me: 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+
Wife: 2023 Tesla Model Y Long Range

 

[nOOky]

One good thing about living where I do is the vehicle taxes are cheap, and no emissions testing if it's newer than 2006. Eff the environment 😛

 

[BoomerD]

That's not bad all things considered. Here in Illinois the yearly registration fee for my Mustang is $251 which I don't mind paying. I honestly think it's on the low side considering I use the same roads as everyone else but get to fill up in my garage. A $100 difference in registration fees pales in comparison to the annual taxes I would be paying on gasoline or diesel fuels if I drove an ICE vehicle.

I think a set registration fee then a tax based on yearly milage would be fair for EVs and hybrids or hell maybe everyone but that gets complicated and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Illi-noise? I thought you were in I-oh-Way?

 

[BoomerD]

In the U.S., roads are funded primarily through a sales tax on gasoline and diesel. EV vehicles don't use either so the users don't pay the taxes that fund the roads. The fee at registration replaces these taxes for EV vehicles. Adding fees to high efficiency ICE vehicles because they use less gasoline and therefore pay less fuel tax is stupid. These folks are getting screwed as these high efficiency vehicles are generally lighter and cause less road damage.

They're not getting screwed at all. They still drive on the roadways. Are the vehicles lighter? Sure, but the roadways still cost in the millions of $$$ per mile to build. Regardless of vehicle weight, higher MPG vehicles, or EV, that cost has to be paid by the drivers.
Several states have been talking about replacing gas taxes with an annual "pay per mile" fee that gets paid with registration. I see lots of ways for that to be fucked...

 

[Ajay]

Okay, all y'alls convinced me to update my proposal.

Curb weight^4 x miles x rate = tax strikes me as a reasonable way to pay for roads . If we want a sin tax on carbon on top of that to pay for climate change mitigation, okay.

Currently for gas and diesel, the tax is pre-paid before one drives those miles. Finding a method for pre-paying the road tax is probably a good idea as opposed to billing vehicle owners once a year. Not sure how to do this without an invasive system.

Glad you don't make tax policy in my state. Hell, a Mini Cooper has a curb weight of 2846 lbs!! The fourth power is: 6.5605 E+13. The tax rate would need to be something like 1.0 E-11. A truck weighing twice that would be 16 times more expensive to register!!

 

[IronWing]

Glad you don't make tax policy in my state. Hell, a Mini Cooper has a curb weight of 2846 lbs!! The fourth power is: 6.5605 E+13. The tax rate would need to be something like 1.0 E-11. A truck weighing twice that would be 16 times more expensive to register!!

With a Mini Cooper, your taxes would likely go down while the taxes on brodozers went up in order to properly apportion the costs of road damage.

 

[pmv]

Okay, all y'alls convinced me to update my proposal.

Curb weight^4 x miles x rate = tax strikes me as a reasonable way to pay for roads . If we want a sin tax on carbon on top of that to pay for climate change mitigation, okay.

Currently for gas and diesel, the tax is pre-paid before one drives those miles. Finding a method for pre-paying the road tax is probably a good idea as opposed to billing vehicle owners once a year. Not sure how to do this without an invasive system.

Only missing thing is - you need to also address the issue of rationing road-space, i.e. congestion charging.

They're not getting screwed at all. They still drive on the roadways. Are the vehicles lighter? Sure, but the roadways still cost in the millions of $$$ per mile to build. Regardless of vehicle weight, higher MPG vehicles, or EV, that cost has to be paid by the drivers.
Several states have been talking about replacing gas taxes with an annual "pay per mile" fee that gets paid with registration. I see lots of ways for that to be fucked...

If you replace gas taxes with "pay per mile", you (a) need to have a means of recording how many miles people drive, which seems to imply quite a serious level of surveillance, and (b) it loses the incentive of gas taxes for increasing fuel efficiency.

Carbon emissions, and pollution in general, is going to be a function of fuel consumption more than miles driven.

The cost of building roads in the first place is, I suspect, relatively-small compared to the cost of maintaining them and policing them, and you could argue that that cost should come from general taxation as the existence of a road network is pretty important for the economy as a whole.

 

[nakedfrog]

Only missing thing is - you need to also address the issue of rationing road-space, i.e. congestion charging.

In much of the US, this isn't a particularly relevant concern. Something akin to London's ULEZ might be a way to start, but runs into the issue of many cities having shit transit options.

 

[bbhaag]

Illi-noise? I thought you were in I-oh-Way?

Nah Illinois born and raised. I do love Iowa though. If you have ever driven through there in the late summer when the sun is just right the way it reflects off the corn is beautiful. When you're on 130 heading north west toward Bennett those fields are something else.

 

[BoomerD]

Nah Illinois born and raised. I do love Iowa though. If you have ever driven through there in the late summer when the sun is just right the way it reflects off the corn is beautiful. When you're on 130 heading north west toward Bennett those fields are something else.

My mom grew up in the Osceola area. At one time, I had relatives all over the state. I haven't been back to visit any of them since the 60s.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Skips a bunch of posts ....


In the last two years, the state and county have repaved close to 40 miles of roads I routinely drive. Another 20 miles or so that I only drive sometimes. Hundreds of miles nearby that I don't usually drive. Just the blacktop must have cost several times more than all the taxes I've paid in the 25 years I've lived here.

There are also a few sections they took down to the base and fully repaved with six inches of concrete.

Plus two brand new multi-million dollar bridges.

Add in all the equipment and salaries for workers and I'll never come close to it if they took 100% of my lifetime income.


My 2024 registration was about $50 for two vehicles. I drive less that 5,000 miles per year total.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

If you replace gas taxes with "pay per mile", you (a) need to have a means of recording how many miles people drive, which seems to imply quite a serious level of surveillance, and (b) it loses the incentive of gas taxes for increasing fuel efficiency.

Clerk walks out to your car and looks at the odometer when you go to pay the fees.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

And curb weight means nothing for other than passenger cars. Farmers around here routinely haul trailers with several tons of hay bales.

Then you have all the redneck fools overloading their pick-em-up-trucks with everything and anything that will fit in the bed.

Contractors will haul skid steers on trailers behind their pick ups.

We have Ag companies that move convoys of large tractors, combines and all of the support equipment that don't have plates and probably don't pay any road taxes at all.

 

[pmv]

Clerk walks out to your car and looks at the odometer when you go to pay the fees.

I might be out-of-date (as technology marches on) but traditionally it was far-from-unknown for people to 'wind back the clock' and fiddle odometers. And does it not depend _where_ one clocked up the miles?

I would still argue you need a combo of gas-taxes, road/congestion pricing, and something that takes account of the mass of the vehicle, in order to cover all the dimensions of the costs driving imposes on society, and to incentivise reducing each of those.

 

[Exterous]

LoL 25mpg is considered high efficiency?

I was a little bummed today by a worse than usual MPG trip in my 11 year old car. I 'only' got 31MPG. My lifetime average for the car is 35.3 and I do a lot of city driving in the cold...

25mpg being considered high efficiency? Sigh

 

[nakedfrog]

Clerk walks out to your car and looks at the odometer when you go to pay the fees.

Someone drives 10,000 miles that year, but 5,000 of it in other states. They're paying more to their state, and possibly depriving other states or basically having to pay twice for half of it.

I might be out-of-date (as technology marches on) but traditionally it was far-from-unknown for people to 'wind back the clock' and fiddle odometers. And does it not depend _where_ one clocked up the miles?

While digital odometers can be reprogrammed, it's usually not a simple task, and would probably outweigh the taxes necessary except in extreme cases.

 

[Amol S.]

LoL 25mpg is considered high efficiency?

I just did some googling and wikipidiaing and found out 25mpg is actually considered efficient for rear-engined sports car class cars. For example the Audi R8, Lamborghini Galorado, and the similar types.

 

[sdifox]

I just did some googling and wikipidiaing and found out 25mpg is actually considered efficient for rear-engined sports car class cars. For example the Audi R8, Lamborghini Galorado, and the similar types.

25MPG would be great for tanks as well.

 

[JEDI]

25MPG would be great for tanks as well.

i think the abrams main line tank does 2 gallons per mile.
But it's diesal

 

[sdifox]

i think the abrams main line tank does 2 gallons per mile.
But it's diesal

0.9 mpg on pavement lol

The Fuel Efficiency of the Abrams Tank: Understanding Miles Per Gallon

The Fuel Efficiency of the Abrams Tank: Understanding Miles Per Gallon TS2 SPACE

ts2.space

 

[iamwiz82]

I get the reasoning behind it, efficient and electric vehicles are "skirting" gas taxes. EVs in Michigan pay $100 per year on top of typical registration. It's a huge discount versus the 28 cent per gallon tax that I could be paying.