Car Question .: Namely the brakes

[PoonDaddy007]

I'm looking to get some new rotors for my car and I just want to know ...

Once you get a good pair of rotors, how long do they usually last? Can they last for the life of your car and you just change the pads?

An average would be good. Is it closer to 50K per set or 100K?

Thanks.

 

[Zenmervolt]

If you don't warp them, there's no reason that rotors can't last the life of the car.

ZV

 

[PoonDaddy007]

Yeah I got Maxima with the rotors warping twice in 2 years. Looking to get a set of Brembos and would like to keep them as long as possible.

Anyone else?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: PoonDaddy007
Yeah I got Maxima with the rotors warping twice in 2 years. Looking to get a set of Brembos and would like to keep them as long as possible.

Anyone else?

What are your driving habits? Rotors don't warp that often without there being a malfunction or driver error. If one of the calipers is sticking, it will warp a rotor quickly. Braking too hard to a complete stop and keeping the brakes on will warp rotors (the part of the rotor not clamped by the pads cools much faster than the part that is clamped). Braking hard and then driving through a puddle will warp rotors. Over-torqueing the lug-nuts will also warp rotors.

ZV

 

[PoonDaddy007]

The Fifth generation Maxima's are known for warping rotors. A lot of people have had their rotors warp on them so I don't think my driving habits are the only reason for them warping. Although I do drive a little faster than average....

 

[KenGr]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: PoonDaddy007
Yeah I got Maxima with the rotors warping twice in 2 years. Looking to get a set of Brembos and would like to keep them as long as possible.

Anyone else?

What are your driving habits? Rotors don't warp that often without there being a malfunction or driver error. If one of the calipers is sticking, it will warp a rotor quickly. Braking too hard to a complete stop and keeping the brakes on will warp rotors (the part of the rotor not clamped by the pads cools much faster than the part that is clamped). Braking hard and then driving through a puddle will warp rotors. Over-torqueing the lug-nuts will also warp rotors.

ZV

Overtorquing maybe, driving through puddles - no way. The most common causes are manufacturing defects in materials or design. There are huge numbers of "service bulletins" on this but few recalls since it's not a safety concern. This means that if you go to the dealer and complain he will fix it on warranty but he won't volunteer that information. Some of the more sophisticated vented rotors are the worst about warping. The bad part of this is that the dealer will usually just resurface and true the rotors and a year later they will warp again. Beware of BS. I badly warped the front rotors on a Suzuki 1100 riding in the Rocky Mts. At first they claimed it was my fault (How do you mistreat the brakes on a 140mph motorcycle?) but subsequently found the front wheel mounting surface was a little less than 0.5 degree off true to the axle. That was enough to warp the disks.

 

[Zenmervolt]

driving through puddles - no way.

I beg to differ. If the brakes are heated by a heavy stop and they are run through a puddle at the end of the stop, the rapid cooling of the rotor caused by the sudden application of cold water on the hot rotor surface can definitely be enough to warp the rotors. Granted, driving through a puddle without hot brakes will not warp rotors, but taking hot rotors through a puddle has more than simply potential to warp rotors.

As for the rotor on your bike being out of true with the wheel, that makes no difference. Now, if the rotor were out of true with the caliper then the rotor would certainly warp. But as long as the rotor and the caliper are aligned properly, you won't warp the rotor.

ZV

EDIT: As for how do you mistreat the brakes on a 140 mph motorcycle, it's incredibly easy to do in the mountains. If you use the service brakes instead of the engine's compression to maintain speed down hills you will warp rotors so fast it's not even funny. This may not be what you did, but a person would be a damn fool to ride the brakes down a mountain.

 

[Bignate603]

From my understanding, if you run the tires underinflated for extended periods of time for some reason the tires, wheels, and thus brakes heat up and the excessive heat causes the rotors to warp. One of our mechanics (family friend for years, he was our friend first, mechanic later) told us that was the reason the rotors went on our van. I trust him, he wasn't trying to shake any money out of us.

 

[KenGr]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

driving through puddles - no way.

I beg to differ. If the brakes are heated by a heavy stop and they are run through a puddle at the end of the stop, the rapid cooling of the rotor caused by the sudden application of cold water on the hot rotor surface can definitely be enough to warp the rotors. Granted, driving through a puddle without hot brakes will not warp rotors, but taking hot rotors through a puddle has more than simply potential to warp rotors.

As for the rotor on your bike being out of true with the wheel, that makes no difference. Now, if the rotor were out of true with the caliper then the rotor would certainly warp. But as long as the rotor and the caliper are aligned properly, you won't warp the rotor.

ZV

EDIT: As for how do you mistreat the brakes on a 140 mph motorcycle, it's incredibly easy to do in the mountains. If you use the service brakes instead of the engine's compression to maintain speed down hills you will warp rotors so fast it's not even funny. This may not be what you did, but a person would be a damn fool to ride the brakes down a mountain.

I think the rotors are designed for quenching and that's not a stability problem. The problem is metallurgy resulting in non-uniformity in the disk or severe overheating. If you have a uniform metal structure and don't overheat the metal seriously, quenching will not affect the dimensions. The problem seems to come from the thick and thin sections on vented rotors or improper metallurgy. I've never had much of a warp problem with plain disks but I had a real problem with a car that had a fancy vented double disk kind of arrangement.

On a motorcycle the rotor is bolted to the wheel. The caliper is bolted to the fork. Therefore, if the disk is not true with the wheel and perpendicular with the axle, by definition it is misaligned with the caliper.

100 plus horsepower motorcycles are sold as being built for performance. That means capable of performing in conditions that would leave the brakes red hot. Do I ride the brakes? I rode performance bikes for over 20 years, putting as much as 50,000 miles on some of them and never replaced a brake pad. But I warped the disks on that Suzuki so bad in 5000 miles it was almost unrideable. After they replaced the front wheel, disks and calipers I rode it another 35,000 miles with no problems.

 

[PoonDaddy007]

Originally posted by: KenGr

Overtorquing maybe, driving through puddles - no way. The most common causes are manufacturing defects in materials or design. There are huge numbers of "service bulletins" on this but few recalls since it's not a safety concern. This means that if you go to the dealer and complain he will fix it on warranty but he won't volunteer that information. Some of the more sophisticated vented rotors are the worst about warping. The bad part of this is that the dealer will usually just resurface and true the rotors and a year later they will warp again. Beware of BS. I badly warped the front rotors on a Suzuki 1100 riding in the Rocky Mts. At first they claimed it was my fault (How do you mistreat the brakes on a 140mph motorcycle?) but subsequently found the front wheel mounting surface was a little less than 0.5 degree off true to the axle. That was enough to warp the disks.

Yeah, they warped once at around 12K and took them in. They resurfaced them and turned them only to warp about a year later. There is a TSB out for these Maximas. Took that to the dealer to have him refuse me service. Damn bastard.

On another note, I have heard passing hot rotors thru water can cause them to warp. I have yet to witness this warping as it happens but I hear about it often.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: KenGr

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

driving through puddles - no way.

I beg to differ. If the brakes are heated by a heavy stop and they are run through a puddle at the end of the stop, the rapid cooling of the rotor caused by the sudden application of cold water on the hot rotor surface can definitely be enough to warp the rotors. Granted, driving through a puddle without hot brakes will not warp rotors, but taking hot rotors through a puddle has more than simply potential to warp rotors.

As for the rotor on your bike being out of true with the wheel, that makes no difference. Now, if the rotor were out of true with the caliper then the rotor would certainly warp. But as long as the rotor and the caliper are aligned properly, you won't warp the rotor.

ZV

EDIT: As for how do you mistreat the brakes on a 140 mph motorcycle, it's incredibly easy to do in the mountains. If you use the service brakes instead of the engine's compression to maintain speed down hills you will warp rotors so fast it's not even funny. This may not be what you did, but a person would be a damn fool to ride the brakes down a mountain.

I think the rotors are designed for quenching and that's not a stability problem. The problem is metallurgy resulting in non-uniformity in the disk or severe overheating. If you have a uniform metal structure and don't overheat the metal seriously, quenching will not affect the dimensions. The problem seems to come from the thick and thin sections on vented rotors or improper metallurgy. I've never had much of a warp problem with plain disks but I had a real problem with a car that had a fancy vented double disk kind of arrangement.

On a motorcycle the rotor is bolted to the wheel. The caliper is bolted to the fork. Therefore, if the disk is not true with the wheel and perpendicular with the axle, by definition it is misaligned with the caliper.

100 plus horsepower motorcycles are sold as being built for performance. That means capable of performing in conditions that would leave the brakes red hot. Do I ride the brakes? I rode performance bikes for over 20 years, putting as much as 50,000 miles on some of them and never replaced a brake pad. But I warped the disks on that Suzuki so bad in 5000 miles it was almost unrideable. After they replaced the front wheel, disks and calipers I rode it another 35,000 miles with no problems.

Point about the caliper mounting, I was unsure if that was universal mounting practice or if sportbikes might have a floating caliper unlike my non-sporting standard.

You're right that solid discs tend to hold up better, but remember that they also have significantly more material through which to dissipate heat. Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. Heavier discs will resists warping more than light ones, but heavier discs use more material (more expensive from a manufacturing standpoint if all else is equal) and they are rotating, unsprung mass, something that is often cut down in order to improve handling. Making matters worse, shaving a rotor to get it back to true will reduce the amount of material and increase the liklihood of warpage.

ZV

 

[ThisIsMatt]

original factory rotors can easily last the life of the car unless a) you're a shizzy driver or b) you buy a crap car

 

Yeah I got Maxima with the rotors warping twice in 2 years. Looking to get a set of Brembos and would like to keep them as long as possible.

Check your rear brakes for proper operation, if the rears are not up to snuff, the fronts do all the work causing excessive heat and warpage.

From my understanding, if you run the tires underinflated for extended periods of time for some reason the tires, wheels, and thus brakes heat up and the excessive heat causes the rotors to warp. One of our mechanics (family friend for years, he was our friend first, mechanic later) told us that was the reason the rotors went on our van. I trust him, he wasn't trying to shake any money out of us.

No offense but your mechanic is incorrect, running underinflated tires can in no way cause your rotors to warp.

 

[GTI337]

Interesting article that says rotors don't warp -
Warped Rotor Myth

 

Interesting article that says rotors don't warp -
Warped Rotor Myth

I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, (FIGURE 1) discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, (FIGURE 2) a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, (FIGURE 3) and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not. (FIGURE 4)

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.

This guy is so full of it that it is coming out of his ears.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: GTI337
Interesting article that says rotors don't warp -
Warped Rotor Myth

Yeah, and you don't actually need that engine oil either.

I've seen rotors that were out of true (i.e. not flat), they looked like an LP that had been left in an oven. If that's not warping then nothing is.

Also, the commentary on the brake fluid reservoir is BS as well. The float in the fluid reservoir is set to trip the light when brake fluid reaches a MINIMUM WORKING LEVEL. The float does NOT trip the light when the pads are worn. In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads. The wear indicators are IN THE PADS or attached to the calipers. Any quality brake pad sold today will have wear indicators in it that will cause squeel when the pads are worn. This squeel will happen WELL BEFORE the time at which the pads would wear completely through to the backing plates.

ZV

 

[PoonDaddy007]

Does anyone have any experience with Brembo rotors? I'm looking to get a set and wanted to get some feedback on them.

Also, as ThisIsMatt said, rotors can/will last the life of the car. Is this true? Do they need to be replaced every now and then?

Thanks.

 

[JC]

In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads.

Not necessarily true. As the pads wear, the pistons move outwards to maintain near-zero clearance. Therefore, the calipers retain more of the brake fluid behind the pistons, resulting in gradually-decreasing fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir.


JC

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: PoonDaddy007
Does anyone have any experience with Brembo rotors? I'm looking to get a set and wanted to get some feedback on them.

Also, as ThisIsMatt said, rotors can/will last the life of the car. Is this true? Do they need to be replaced every now and then?

Thanks.

Rotors can last the life of the car, if you're gentle on the brakes all the time and if none of the calipers ever stick. Depends on a lot of variables. The main determining factor in warpage though is rotor mass. More mass, more heat dissipation. More heat dissipation, less warpage.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: JC

In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads.

Not necessarily true. As the pads wear, the pistons move outwards to maintain near-zero clearance. Therefore, the calipers retain more of the brake fluid behind the pistons, resulting in gradually-decreasing fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir.


JC

Still shouldn't be perceptible. And the float still only monitors for minimum operational fluid level, not for some level when the pads are worn out.

ZV

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Originally posted by: PoonDaddy007
Does anyone have any experience with Brembo rotors? I'm looking to get a set and wanted to get some feedback on them.

Also, as ThisIsMatt said, rotors can/will last the life of the car. Is this true? Do they need to be replaced every now and then?

Thanks.

Well, it also depends on how long the car lasts, but I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for the rotors to last 200,000 miles. My family has never done any rotor work on any of the 8 vehicals we've owned, with milages such as 190k, 190k, 152k, 180k, etc...

 

[StageLeft]

I've also heard about the rotors not being up to snuff in the 5th generation maximas. I'm aware of this and do my best not to do any heavy hard braking If you get some larger tougher ones you'll do a lot better with them but find out how much they're gonna cost because regular rotors are fairly cheap and you could actually do the job yourself if you wanted. You'd be surprised how easy it is to change the rotors and brake pads - just get a haynes manual from autozone.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: JC

In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads.

Not necessarily true. As the pads wear, the pistons move outwards to maintain near-zero clearance. Therefore, the calipers retain more of the brake fluid behind the pistons, resulting in gradually-decreasing fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir.
JC

Anyone that's topped off their reservoir before replacing a set of pads has unfortunately noticed this. When you compress the pistons back into the caliper to clear the new thick pads, whoosh brake fluid goes everywhere

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: JC

In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads.

Not necessarily true. As the pads wear, the pistons move outwards to maintain near-zero clearance. Therefore, the calipers retain more of the brake fluid behind the pistons, resulting in gradually-decreasing fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir.


JC

Still shouldn't be perceptible.
ZV

It depends on the size of the reservoir. I've seen cars with shot pads suck half the fluid out the reservoir.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: JC

In fact, there should be NO perceptible change in fluid level over the life of the pads.

Not necessarily true. As the pads wear, the pistons move outwards to maintain near-zero clearance. Therefore, the calipers retain more of the brake fluid behind the pistons, resulting in gradually-decreasing fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir.


JC

Still shouldn't be perceptible.
ZV

It depends on the size of the reservoir. I've seen cars with shot pads suck half the fluid out the reservoir.

Huh. I've never had a car where the brake fluid level changed perceptibly over the life of the brake pads. Learn something new every day.

ZV