Car accident rage!

[Toastedlightly]

This is a bit of an automotive rant.

So, I live in Minnesota. Its expected that the roads will be slick. I accept that. I've driven here almost 5 years, I can handle it well... or so I thought. I found that iced over roads (not snow, just pure ice) are impossible and should be avoided.

I was just cruising back home on a side street, minding my own business, going ~20mph when out of the blue I start sliding sideways with the crown of the road. The instant this happens, I get into emergency mode. I start pumping the brakes and try to direct myself away from the parked cars on the side of the road.

Unfortunately, this was not to work out in m favor. I ended up rear-ending a parked Camry. Its Sunday night and nobody was out, so I left a note on the windshield with my name and phone number to call. I feel horrible that I hit a parked car (I usually make jokes about people doing it).

Bonus rant: City of St. Paul, PLEASE SALT THE BACK ROADS! They are nearing impassible for rear wheel drive vehicles.

Cliffs:
Slippery roads
Hit parked car
RAGE


EDIT: Because of popular demand, me definition of bald tires: tires that are down to the wear bars. They still have tread, they just don't have much life left.

 

[Colt45]

get some winter tires next time.

 

[Hellotalkie]

Yeahh it was annoying with my car, a sheet of ice, and even at slowww speeds i had no control over it whatsoever. Scary as hell too, i cracked a wheel, and destroyed my tire by hitting a gutter. Its impossible to stop with a sheet of ice, although abs does wonders, which i dont have : /

 

[LTC8K6]

ABS does pretty much nothing on ice.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

 

[BATCH71]

I live in NH. I feel your pain. I remember losing control of my ford mustang on ice about 15 years ago. It was like the steering wheel and foot pedals had completley dissappeared. It is one of those situations that are very difficult to empathize with unless you have been there.

Dave

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

That's what studded tires are for.

Knowingly driving on bald tires is just stupid, even in perfect summer weather. You had no business being on the road if the tires were as bad as you have just claimed.

That said, a HUGE kudos to you for manning up and leaving a note as well as for admitting that it's your own fault. Many people would not do that and it speaks well of you that you have.

ZV

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

That's what studded tires are for.

Knowingly driving on bald tires is just stupid, even in perfect summer weather. You had no business being on the road if the tires were as bad as you have just claimed.

That said, a HUGE kudos to you for manning up and leaving a note as well as for admitting that it's your own fault. Many people would not do that and it speaks well of you that you have.

ZV

The tires were not 100% bald. They were to the wear indicators, therefore I'd call them bald. One is leaking through the bead and the only reason I was driving was to go to the gas station to air up the tire so I wouldn't lose the bead (already on 1 spare).

Also, studded tires are (IIRC) illegal in Minnesota (as we have nothing more than mild hills, no real mountains).

It does suck, I'm just waiting for the phone call from an angry person. Luckily (or unluckily) I live ~2 blocks from the accident, so it shouldn't be hard to take care of.

 

[mc866]

That sucks, and I'm with you on your request to the City of St Paul, but unfortunately they don't even remove the snow most of the winter much less put some salt down so I don't think we'll see any results on that anytime soon.

Another MN driver BTW, I take side streets through St Paul most days to get to work.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Also, studded tires are (IIRC) illegal in Minnesota (as we have nothing more than mild hills, no real mountains).

Seems that you're right. Upon looking it up, studded tires are only permitted for occasional use by non-residents (e.g. persons from other states where studded tires are legal who are traveling through MN but not staying there) or, by special permit, for use by "rural mail carriers".

Someone in MN should lobby about that since it's a rather ridiculous prohibition. Ohio and Michigan don't have real mountains either and both states allow studded tires from November through April. In my mind, Ohio and Michigan have the correct compromise since a good set of studded tires will provide a significant increase in safety during winter driving conditions.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

WTF are you doing driving a vehicle with bald tires on icy roads in the middle of winter? You could have killed someone. :|

 

[boomerang]

Regarding studded tires in Michigan.

From here.

Question: Are studded tires legal in Michigan ?

Answer: Yes, with certain restrictions. MCL 257.710 allows for the use of studded tires if they meet the specifications listed in subparts (c), (d), and (e). The part that specifically deals with studded tires is subpart (d) which states; "The department of state highways and transportation shall promulgate rules establishing acceptable standards to permit the use of a tire with studs or other traction devices to be used on a street or highway after April 1, 1975. The rules shall make separate provision for the extreme winter snow and ice conditions of the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula. The rules shall include a restriction on the amount and dimension of protrusions that may be allowed on a tire, the type of material that may be used in a stud, traction device, or tire, and the amount of road wear that a tire with studs or other traction devices may cause on a street or highway."

Administrative Rules 247.171 through 247.175 govern studded tires and set the criteria for their use.

These rules state two conditions that must be met for the use of studded tires. Note: to date no manufacturer of tire studs has supplied information to the Michigan Department of Transportation that their product meets or exceeds the required pavement wear specifications.

First, they can only be used between November 15 and April 1 of the succeeding year except in the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula , where, because of extreme winter snow and ice conditions, they may be used between October 1 and May 1of the succeeding year. Northern Lower Peninsula is defined as those counties whose southern boundaries are as far or farther north than the southern boundary of Missaukee county.

Second, studs or other traction devices shall not be used unless they wear either concrete or asphalt pavements, typical of those in this state, at a rate not to exceed 25% of the reference standard studded tire.

The bolded statement tells the tale. No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state. Therefore they are essentially rendered illegal in Michigan.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Regarding studded tires in Michigan.

From here.

Question: Are studded tires legal in Michigan ?

Answer: Yes, with certain restrictions. MCL 257.710 allows for the use of studded tires if they meet the specifications listed in subparts (c), (d), and (e). The part that specifically deals with studded tires is subpart (d) which states; "The department of state highways and transportation shall promulgate rules establishing acceptable standards to permit the use of a tire with studs or other traction devices to be used on a street or highway after April 1, 1975. The rules shall make separate provision for the extreme winter snow and ice conditions of the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula. The rules shall include a restriction on the amount and dimension of protrusions that may be allowed on a tire, the type of material that may be used in a stud, traction device, or tire, and the amount of road wear that a tire with studs or other traction devices may cause on a street or highway."

Administrative Rules 247.171 through 247.175 govern studded tires and set the criteria for their use.

These rules state two conditions that must be met for the use of studded tires. Note: to date no manufacturer of tire studs has supplied information to the Michigan Department of Transportation that their product meets or exceeds the required pavement wear specifications.

First, they can only be used between November 15 and April 1 of the succeeding year except in the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula , where, because of extreme winter snow and ice conditions, they may be used between October 1 and May 1of the succeeding year. Northern Lower Peninsula is defined as those counties whose southern boundaries are as far or farther north than the southern boundary of Missaukee county.

Second, studs or other traction devices shall not be used unless they wear either concrete or asphalt pavements, typical of those in this state, at a rate not to exceed 25% of the reference standard studded tire.

The bolded statement tells the tale. No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state. Therefore they are essentially rendered illegal in Michigan.

When did Michigan attack Minnesota and take it over?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Regarding studded tires in Michigan.

From here.

Question: Are studded tires legal in Michigan ?

Answer: Yes, with certain restrictions. MCL 257.710 allows for the use of studded tires if they meet the specifications listed in subparts (c), (d), and (e). The part that specifically deals with studded tires is subpart (d) which states; "The department of state highways and transportation shall promulgate rules establishing acceptable standards to permit the use of a tire with studs or other traction devices to be used on a street or highway after April 1, 1975. The rules shall make separate provision for the extreme winter snow and ice conditions of the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula. The rules shall include a restriction on the amount and dimension of protrusions that may be allowed on a tire, the type of material that may be used in a stud, traction device, or tire, and the amount of road wear that a tire with studs or other traction devices may cause on a street or highway."

Administrative Rules 247.171 through 247.175 govern studded tires and set the criteria for their use.

These rules state two conditions that must be met for the use of studded tires. Note: to date no manufacturer of tire studs has supplied information to the Michigan Department of Transportation that their product meets or exceeds the required pavement wear specifications.

First, they can only be used between November 15 and April 1 of the succeeding year except in the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula , where, because of extreme winter snow and ice conditions, they may be used between October 1 and May 1of the succeeding year. Northern Lower Peninsula is defined as those counties whose southern boundaries are as far or farther north than the southern boundary of Missaukee county.

Second, studs or other traction devices shall not be used unless they wear either concrete or asphalt pavements, typical of those in this state, at a rate not to exceed 25% of the reference standard studded tire.

The bolded statement tells the tale. No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state. Therefore they are essentially rendered illegal in Michigan.

It does not say that "No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state." It says that no manufacturer has supplied information to the state stating that they have tested for use in Michigan. Those are two very different things.

Note also that there is no requirement whatsoever for the state to approve the manufacturer's testing, which means there's no benefit to a manufacturer from supplying the information to the state. Since there is no requirement for state certification, it does not follow that studded tires are "essentially rendered illegal" because there is no requirement that the state ever be given the information stating that the tires meet the requirement.

ZV

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

WTF are you doing driving a vehicle with bald tires on icy roads in the middle of winter? You could have killed someone. :|

If you read the other posts, bald for me is to the wear indicators. Ironically, I was airing up the leaking tire so I wouldn't have a flat when I went to get my new tires come Tuesday morning.

Also, icy roads are damn near impossible. Tires or not, without studs or chains they become pretty hopeless.

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Bonus rant: City of St. Paul, PLEASE SALT THE BACK ROADS! They are nearing impassible for rear wheel drive vehicles.

Unless you are talking about non 4x4, RWD pickups I'm not sure what you mean. I have driven RWD cars in the snow all my life and I don't have any problems.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: boomerang
Regarding studded tires in Michigan.

From here.

Question: Are studded tires legal in Michigan ?

Answer: Yes, with certain restrictions. MCL 257.710 allows for the use of studded tires if they meet the specifications listed in subparts (c), (d), and (e). The part that specifically deals with studded tires is subpart (d) which states; "The department of state highways and transportation shall promulgate rules establishing acceptable standards to permit the use of a tire with studs or other traction devices to be used on a street or highway after April 1, 1975. The rules shall make separate provision for the extreme winter snow and ice conditions of the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula. The rules shall include a restriction on the amount and dimension of protrusions that may be allowed on a tire, the type of material that may be used in a stud, traction device, or tire, and the amount of road wear that a tire with studs or other traction devices may cause on a street or highway."

Administrative Rules 247.171 through 247.175 govern studded tires and set the criteria for their use.

These rules state two conditions that must be met for the use of studded tires. Note: to date no manufacturer of tire studs has supplied information to the Michigan Department of Transportation that their product meets or exceeds the required pavement wear specifications.

First, they can only be used between November 15 and April 1 of the succeeding year except in the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula , where, because of extreme winter snow and ice conditions, they may be used between October 1 and May 1of the succeeding year. Northern Lower Peninsula is defined as those counties whose southern boundaries are as far or farther north than the southern boundary of Missaukee county.

Second, studs or other traction devices shall not be used unless they wear either concrete or asphalt pavements, typical of those in this state, at a rate not to exceed 25% of the reference standard studded tire.

The bolded statement tells the tale. No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state. Therefore they are essentially rendered illegal in Michigan.

It does not say that "No manufacturer has studded tires that meet the requirements of the state." It says that no manufacturer has supplied information to the state stating that they have tested for use in Michigan. Those are two very different things.

Note also that there is no requirement whatsoever for the state to approve the manufacturer's testing, which means there's no benefit to a manufacturer from supplying the information to the state. Since there is no requirement for state certification, it does not follow that studded tires are "essentially rendered illegal" because there is no requirement that the state ever be given the information stating that the tires meet the requirement.

ZV

I just live here, but I'm sure you're right. Come on over and put on your studded tires and argue with the Police officer while he gives you a ticket. But you're right and I concede.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: boomerang
I just live here, but I'm sure you're right. Come on over and put on your studded tires and argue with the Police officer while he gives you a ticket. But you're right and I concede.

*shrug* Never had a lick of trouble driving up into MI with studded tires when coming up from Ohio.

From a strict legal standpoint I am right. That doesn't mean an officer won't write a ticket for it (the police are not, and have never been, arbiters of what is and is not legal).

ZV

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: iFX

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Bonus rant: City of St. Paul, PLEASE SALT THE BACK ROADS! They are nearing impassible for rear wheel drive vehicles.

Unless you are talking about non 4x4, RWD pickups I'm not sure what you mean. I have driven RWD cars in the snow all my life and I don't have any problems.

It doesn't really matter what you're driving on the sheet of ice though, it doesn't matter if the back two wheels are spinning, the front two wheels are spinning or all four wheels are spinning...you're fucked!

Over the holiday I drove over a mountain pass that was totally clear...except for the sheet of black ice at the crest of a hill from a previously melted snowdrift (I guess). 2-3 seconds of sheer terror as the back end of the car started to come around. Thankfully I just slid onto the dry before it got really bad, but god damn if it didn't scare the hell out of me. It hadn't snowed for like 4 days at that point.

My tires are suppose to be "ice tires" and "as good as studs". That said, for the next set I'm getting studs.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I live in Mpls and it has definitely been REALLY slick around here in the past couple of weeks. I have RWD but also have brand-new Blizzaks and a good traction/stability control system, so it's been fine so far this winter.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Colt45
get some winter tires next time.

does nothing on sheer ice . Also, my front tires are bald and leaking. (just bought this truck as a project) Have an appointment on Tuesday to put new tires on.

That's what studded tires are for.

Knowingly driving on bald tires is just stupid, even in perfect summer weather. You had no business being on the road if the tires were as bad as you have just claimed.

That said, a HUGE kudos to you for manning up and leaving a note as well as for admitting that it's your own fault. Many people would not do that and it speaks well of you that you have.

ZV

Leaving a note = karma ++

We can give the OP a hard time, but on truly icy roads, NO (unstudded) tires will do jack.

I slid through one intersection here in Seattle after the first snow/thaw/freeze cycle, even with chains. Luckily I got a green just as I slid through, and there was no cross traffic, because I wasn't going to be able to stop. Those hills are killer...

 

[rh71]

Balding tires? Someone will be really pissed if you kill them or their family. Driver's Ed teacher's wife was maimed because of a guy with bald tires... he had that look in his eyes as he told us the story. Get new tires.

 

[XZeroII]

Happened to me driving through Alboquouque, NM (spelled wrong) a couple years ago. I had to drive 5 - 10 mph on the freeway behind semis for the next 4 miles or so for the next overpass so that I could park and wait it out. I parked between a couple of semis for a few hours and got some sleep because it was like 3:00AM. Incredibly scary situation. I live in WI and deal with snow and ice all the time but this was something else. When I first noticed, I was going about 55MPH and noticed my breaks weren't working. Luckly pumping them very lightly over and over slowed me down.

 

[KillerCharlie]

So you were driving a truck with bald tires? Is there a worse vehicle to drive on icy roads?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Well, thars yor problem, you're in St. Paul! Have you never heard the line about, "if you know where you are, you're in Minneapolis. If your lost, you're in St. Paul?"